Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[mhucasey]

As a DIYer, I can put together a 600W multichip design together for about $700 - with dimming and liquid cooling even.

So if you're worried that 185W Kessil for $800 is the new norm - don't. These solutions will come down significantly in price over time.

I've seen the results of the "dream chip" multi chip. Sorry, but its not very impressive.

I've considered a DIY project to reproduce the Lani Led design which uses a lot of emitters spread out(80 emitters in a 16" X 16" panel), but between the cost of emitters, drivers, heatsinks, etc. even building one test panel would be about 400 to 500 dollars.

Just covering my smaller tank(36" X 28") would require about 3 panels to reproduce the successful density of the Lani Approach. $1500 is a lot for something I'd take weeks to build myself. I'm surprised that emitter costs haven't dropped more - Based on the cost I recorded on the spreadsheet I made at the time, the drop is about a dime per element in a year and a half.

[oreo57]

I've seen the results of the "dream chip" multi chip. Sorry, but its not very impressive.

I've considered a DIY project to reproduce the Lani Led design which uses a lot of emitters spread out(80 emitters in a 16" X 16" panel), but between the cost of emitters, drivers, heatsinks, etc. even building one test panel would be about 400 to 500 dollars.

Just covering my smaller tank(36" X 28") would require about 3 panels to reproduce the successful density of the Lani Approach. $1500 is a lot for something I'd take weeks to build myself. I'm surprised that emitter costs haven't dropped more - Based on the cost I recorded on the spreadsheet I made at the time, the drop is about a dime per element in a year and a half.

Really depends where you shop and what you want
100pcs SMD5630 5730 LED Diodes 0.5W LED Lamp Bead SMD 5630 5730 LEDs Chip Diode
$9.50 plus free shipping... ;)

100 Royal blue Bridgelux 3W chips is $54.14


So 10 cents or 54 cents per chip.. x80

going w/ that type of density "Cadillac" chips aren't really unnecessary.. unless you want the ultimate power savings..
SMD5630's are averaging around 100lumens/W. The 3W cheapos are around 50L/W

9=3W diodes in series you would need 10 LDD's @7 each..
$70 plus $54 plus say $60 for a PS..$184 per 18x18 panel (approx) sans heatsink and wire...

[RobTheReefer]

I was VERY surprised to say the least! Looking at the AP700 fixture, one would def think the two clusters are too far apart, prefering the design used by AI/Ecotech with pucks close together. I personaly like the shimmer the regular kessils bring, although the tanks ive seen using them seem a bit dark.

Heres a link to a review of the light, and i wasnt aware it has a reflector which now makes me understand the better coverage on the brs tests. Was that feature pointed in the brs video?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UUVxRtL7a2Q

Before viewing the brs led video, I was considering 3 a360's. Now it's seems that I'm much better off with just my single ap700. If I had money to burn, I'd definitely put two over a 48" 90gal. for an acro-only tank. But I'll be happy with light loving acros in the middle third of the tank and deepwater acros and other sps in the outer thirds. Monti's at the outer edges and just above the sandbed are growing like weeds.

[mhucasey]

Really depends where you shop and what you want
100pcs SMD5630 5730 LED Diodes 0.5W LED Lamp Bead SMD 5630 5730 LEDs Chip Diode
$9.50 plus free shipping... ;)

100 Royal blue Bridgelux 3W chips is $54.14


So 10 cents or 54 cents per chip.. x80

going w/ that type of density "Cadillac" chips aren't really unnecessary.. unless you want the ultimate power savings..
SMD5630's are averaging around 100lumens/W. The 3W cheapos are around 50L/W

9=3W diodes in series you would need 10 LDD's @7 each..
$70 plus $54 plus say $60 for a PS..$184 per 18x18 panel (approx) sans heatsink and wire...

I was considering it because Lani LED works. I thought it would be a fun project and I could evaluate them over a satellite tank. Lani uses 3W Cree Blue, Cree Cool white, and 405nm(can't remember the mfg) chips, and run them at 1 watt with no lenses. That boosts their efficiency and lifetime and make the whole thing work without active cooling. Something different would be cheaper but wouldn't be the same thing.

[mhucasey]

Lani LED tanks:

http://imagizer-cv.imageshack.us/v2/674x537q90/538/GCPMPU.jpg

http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/miniminigtr34/imgs/2/c/2c7391f4.png



http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2013Q4/20131116_142215.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/850x504q90/537/wZ6A48.jpg

[Bpb]

It's been well documented that the multichip, optic, and reflector design were completely redesigned from the ground up for the ap700. It is NOT simply 2 a360 multichips in a single panel.

[kenpau]

That statement gets used here too, but I can count on one hand the amount of LED only tanks I've seen that I would call "amazing".

I'm not sure exactly what your point is here? If only one person on the planet has produced an amazing tank grown by LEDs then it proves LEDs work. I think there's also a couple of reasons for this, the first is cost; there's no doubt that MH is the cheap option for lighting reef systems, the initial setup of using good quality LEDs can be very expensive, so you'd assume that more tanks are lit with MH for this reason.
Secondly although LED technology has been around for about 10 years, I'd say that it's only in the last 3 years or so that we've seen a real growth in LED technology capable of growing SPS at a decent rate.
I was using AI sols 5 years ago on a 55 and unless I put 8 of them over the tank I wasn't going to get sufficient lighting for Acropora.
Now on a 150 I had 3 AI Hydra52s and was getting good Acropora growth directly under the lights, but the poor spread of the lights meant I needed more fixtures.
So the reason you've only seen a handful of amazing LED grown tanks is probably because 1. The initial cost means less people take this option, especially on larger tanks, 2. It takes time to grow out an amazing reef tank and the better LED units have only really been out 3 or 4 years, and 3. You have to have your settings correctly dialed in with LEDs, as we've seen from this thread many people just give up and go crawling back to MH, then come on here stating LEDs don't work instead of persevering and researching the right settings.

[mhucasey]

I'm not sure exactly what your point is here? If only one person on the planet has produced an amazing tank grown by LEDs then it proves LEDs work. I think there's also a couple of reasons for this, the first is cost; there's no doubt that MH is the cheap option for lighting reef systems, the initial setup of using good quality LEDs can be very expensive, so you'd assume that more tanks are lit with MH for this reason.
Secondly although LED technology has been around for about 10 years, I'd say that it's only in the last 3 years or so that we've seen a real growth in LED technology capable of growing SPS at a decent rate.
I was using AI sols 5 years ago on a 55 and unless I put 8 of them over the tank I wasn't going to get sufficient lighting for Acropora.
Now on a 150 I had 3 AI Hydra52s and was getting good Acropora growth directly under the lights, but the poor spread of the lights meant I needed more fixtures.
So the reason you've only seen a handful of amazing LED grown tanks is probably because 1. The initial cost means less people take this option, especially on larger tanks, 2. It takes time to grow out an amazing reef tank and the better LED units have only really been out 3 or 4 years, and 3. You have to have your settings correctly dialed in with LEDs, as we've seen from this thread many people just give up and go crawling back to MH, then come on here stating LEDs don't work instead of persevering and researching the right settings.
LEDs are expensive, so getting the proper amount for coverage costs more money than most reefers consider reasonable. I'll buy that. I've been hearing that LEDs haven't been out long enough for reef tanks to develop under them for 3 years now. It doesn't take that long to grow a reef tank, so I don't buy that.

Why should reef keepers be forced to "perservere" tweaking spectrum and researching settings on a light fixture that costs more than existing technologies? If it was cheaper that would make sense, but for most technology when you pay more you should get ease of use in that cost.

[mhucasey]

Those Lani tanks I posted are what I would call "Amazing". They also have $6000- $13,500 dollars worth of panels over those tanks!(each panel is 1500 bucks).

[oreo57]

Something different would be cheaper but wouldn't be the same thing.
your right.. it would be cheaper.. ;)
CREE aren't even "the best" chips to begin with (arguable of course)

https://youtu.be/V7XLgLiA0PM?list=PLBaMLrfToJyybUT18OE3fMomFb9XU0ffC

[seamonster124]

I'm starting to think I need to get the halides out of the shed......I guess Phoenix 14k's are out of business now?

[karimwassef]

I don't know what the dream multichips are. I wasn't talking about them.

There are many vendors of multichip LEDs, but I'm amazed that you can judge my DIY as not impressive with zero detail :D

That's an amazing power of judgement you possess! LOL

We all project by filling in the gaps in what we read with what we think or know, but maybe just take a moment to find out more? :)

[jminick2]

I'm starting to think I need to get the halides out of the shed......I guess Phoenix 14k's are out of business now?
no, back in business.

[mhucasey]

I don't know what the dream multichips are. I wasn't talking about them.

There are many vendors of multichip LEDs, but I'm amazed that you can judge my DIY as not impressive with zero detail :D

That's an amazing power of judgement you possess! LOL

We all project by filling in the gaps in what we read with what we think or know, but maybe just take a moment to find out more? :)

There is no need to get your feathers ruffled, I wasn't commenting on your build or its quality. It looks very impressive, uses Cree LEDs:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2226279
How is it performing? I didn't see a tank thread but it looks like you love to DIY.

FYI the "Dream Chip" was a project here on the Reef Central DIY forums where a group of LED enthusiasts got together to design and develop a reef tank Multi-Chip. They did that because there weren't any multi chips out there that fit the requirements for a reef.

It started on this monster thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2128756&highlight=dream+multichip
and the chip from it was then used in other builds. Take a look for yourself. Many of the reefers who designed the chip admitted something just didn't work but frankly the pictures of the tanks in the thread will show you that.

[ReefCowboy]

Lani LED tanks:

http://imagizer-cv.imageshack.us/v2/674x537q90/538/GCPMPU.jpg

http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/miniminigtr34/imgs/2/c/2c7391f4.png



http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2013Q4/20131116_142215.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/850x504q90/537/wZ6A48.jpg

i see similar design on the led fixtures from this post and this incredible store in Germany(link youtube). Would lani's set ups follow similar led placement and coverage?
This looks very impressive

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GC0aXnKQY-E

BTW, is there a more impressive variety of corals, and on point coral colors than this store? It is truly a 10/10 in my opinion

[mhucasey]

i see similar design on the led fixtures from this post and this incredible store in Germany(link youtube). Would lani's set ups follow similar led placement and coverage?
This looks very impressive

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GC0aXnKQY-E

BTW, is there a more impressive variety of corals, and on point coral colors than this store? It is truly a 10/10 in my opinion

That is the Triton store, the second pic in the list is the tank in the beginning of that video. The same guys who commercialized Triton produce the Lani LED. It was intended to be a T5 replacement, so there isn't the shimmer, but there is the coverage. I agree on that store, one of the best I've ever seen, no matter what kind of lighting - and that show tank is very impressive.

One of the keys about the success of their approach is that they create diffuse light by using so many emitters. I've read many threads of users with these panels and they seem to be similar to T5s in that corals don't need slow acclimation under them(no burned corals).

[seamonster124]

Have you ever changed anybody's mind on here? I doubt it. People are just defending their own preference, regardless of evidence.

You can post a pic of God's reef tank on here and people will disagree with his lighting if it does not agree with their prefered product. The sun is an inefficient method of lighting a reef if you ask me.

[C.Eymann]

I consider myself a halide loyalist but one that sold me on LED's was Bon's lagoon,I still use halides but tanks such as his show that creating something that is TOTM worthy can be done with LED.

[mhucasey]

Have you ever changed anybody's mind on here? I doubt it. People are just defending their own preference, regardless of evidence.

You can post a pic of God's reef tank on here and people will disagree with his lighting if it does not agree with their prefered product. The sun is an inefficient method of lighting a reef if you ask me.

If I can keep one person from quitting this hobby because their lighting failed then I will keep trying. I want everyone to have an amazing reef.

[mhucasey]

I consider myself a halide loyalist but one that sold me on LED's was Bon's lagoon,I still use halides but tanks such as his show that creating something that is TOTM worthy can be done with LED.

His tank convinced me to buy Ecoxotic Cannons:facepalm: Then the Cannons didn't get the job done, and were replaced by T5s.

His tank was pretty stunning but I'm not sure what all was going on there. He started up the tank in December 2010, got Zeovit dream tank on June 7 2011, and his last post here was June 11th 2011. His last post on Zeovit's forum was the June 22 2011. About 7 months for that tank, then he disapeared, not sure if it was just a staged tank or what.

[kenpau]

LEDs are expensive, so getting the proper amount for coverage costs more money than most reefers consider reasonable. I'll buy that. I've been hearing that LEDs haven't been out long enough for reef tanks to develop under them for 3 years now. It doesn't take that long to grow a reef tank, so I don't buy that.

Why should reef keepers be forced to "perservere" tweaking spectrum and researching settings on a light fixture that costs more than existing technologies? If it was cheaper that would make sense, but for most technology when you pay more you should get ease of use in that cost.

Well you can create an amazing reef tank in one day if you go out and buy full colonies....if you're growing from frags then it will definitely take time.
"persevere" was probably the wrong choice of word by me. I guess an analogy would be when iPods came out, some people embraced them and in doing so had to learn how to download music, create playlists, transfer files etc. Other people sat there thinking it's too much effort, I'll stick with the proven Walkman/Discman, despite the obvious benefits of technological advances. Probably not the best analogy but you get where I'm going with it.
I would say with most technology there is more to learn, you buy a smart TV v's an old CRT TV, an Audi R6 v's a Holden Barina, etc etc. but again once you have learned to use the technology the benefits are obvious.

[markalot]

I don't think one had to buy 2 ipods just to hear the music in stereo. :)

I thought the BRS video on LED was quite good. I especially thought it was funny how he wanted to give a ? rating for spectrum since it's easy to totally screw it up with all the options. They have to sell LED fixtures so no way he could pan LED, but he came a lot closer than I thought he would.

[C.Eymann]

His tank convinced me to buy Ecoxotic Cannons:facepalm: Then the Cannons didn't get the job done, and were replaced by T5s.

His tank was pretty stunning but I'm not sure what all was going on there. He started up the tank in December 2010, got Zeovit dream tank on June 7 2011, and his last post here was June 11th 2011. His last post on Zeovit's forum was the June 22 2011. About 7 months for that tank, then he disapeared, not sure if it was just a staged tank or what.

This Bons from back in the day when he was still using halides, eitherway very talented aquarist.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSbL9wjN5GE

[mhucasey]

Well you can create an amazing reef tank in one day if you go out and buy full colonies....if you're growing from frags then it will definitely take time.
"persevere" was probably the wrong choice of word by me. I guess an analogy would be when iPods came out, some people embraced them and in doing so had to learn how to download music, create playlists, transfer files etc. Other people sat there thinking it's too much effort, I'll stick with the proven Walkman/Discman, despite the obvious benefits of technological advances. Probably not the best analogy but you get where I'm going with it.
I would say with most technology there is more to learn, you buy a smart TV v's an old CRT TV, an Audi R6 v's a Holden Barina, etc etc. but again once you have learned to use the technology the benefits are obvious.

No thats a good analogy, funny you mention it. I am a computer person and I used to build my own, overclock them, etc. When MP3s came out I spent many hours downloading MP3 files on my 56K connection, assembling files, and decompressing to play them on Winamp. The hoops that I had to jump through soured me on MP3s and I sort of gave up on them.

As the iPod came out and became big I couldn't believe people would subject themselves to such torture when they could use a CD! When the iPod Nano came out our company gave us one as part of a company anniversary and I was shocked at how easy it was to load with music and how easy to use the device was.

My point is, perhaps so much customizable/confusing LED options could sour someone on the hobby and cause them to give up early. Most folks don't have the patience to mess around with tons of settings, they just want something that works.

[C.Eymann]

No thats a good analogy, funny you mention it. I am a computer person and I used to build my own, overclock them, etc. When MP3s came out I spent many hours downloading MP3 files on my 56K connection, assembling files, and decompressing to play them on Winamp. The hoops that I had to jump through soured me on MP3s and I sort of gave up on them.

As the iPod came out and became big I couldn't believe people would subject themselves to such torture when they could use a CD! When the iPod Nano came out our company gave us one as part of a company anniversary and I was shocked at how easy it was to load with music and how easy to use the device was.

My point is, perhaps so much customizable/confusing LED options could sour someone on the hobby and cause them to give up early. Most folks don't have the patience to mess around with tons of settings, they just want something that works.
:beer: you and i need to have a beer, DIY burned CDs everyday

[heritage]

I can't evem get Itunes to work on my computer anymore. Stupid wondows 10.:mad2:

[mhucasey]

:beer: you and i need to have a beer, DIY burned CDs everyday

Yep yep, I used to DIY beer too:beer:

[d2mini]

Well you can create an amazing reef tank in one day if you go out and buy full colonies....if you're growing from frags then it will definitely take time.
"persevere" was probably the wrong choice of word by me. I guess an analogy would be when iPods came out, some people embraced them and in doing so had to learn how to download music, create playlists, transfer files etc. Other people sat there thinking it's too much effort, I'll stick with the proven Walkman/Discman, despite the obvious benefits of technological advances. Probably not the best analogy but you get where I'm going with it.
I would say with most technology there is more to learn, you buy a smart TV v's an old CRT TV, an Audi R6 v's a Holden Barina, etc etc. but again once you have learned to use the technology the benefits are obvious.
I actually think that's a horrible analogy. :lol:
I've been one to jump on new tech with lots of things, including iPods... not once did I ever want to go back to the old tech.
Except with reef tank lighting.



Oh, and skimmers too... almost forgot about that. :D

[Microcosmos]

ABSOLUTELY yes is my answer to the OP. Here is my brief saga with LEDs (with pics loaded to Tapatalk): http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=24141720

[C.Eymann]

His tank convinced me to buy Ecoxotic Cannons:facepalm: Then the Cannons didn't get the job done, and were replaced by T5s.

His tank was pretty stunning but I'm not sure what all was going on there. He started up the tank in December 2010, got Zeovit dream tank on June 7 2011, and his last post here was June 11th 2011. His last post on Zeovit's forum was the June 22 2011. About 7 months for that tank, then he disapeared, not sure if it was just a staged tank or what.

maybe using HGH? I know there is a debate whether that actually works or not but I know that some European sps keepers swear by it, particularly Italians.

[mhucasey]

maybe using HGH? I know there is a debate whether that actually works or not but I know that some European sps keepers swear by it, particularly Italians.

Looking back on his progression shots in his video he only has colonies, never a frag. I don't see definitive growth from any particular piece.

[GroktheCube]

maybe using HGH? I know there is a debate whether that actually works or not but I know that some European sps keepers swear by it, particularly Italians.

I don't see how it could possibly help. Not only is it biologically inactive in corals (to the best of my knowledge), it's also a very "fragile" protein that easily denatures. I imagine that exposure to salt water would render it inert (even in humans) very quickly. There's a reason it's so expensive from the pharmacy. It's difficult to produce and transport, and has a very short shelf life. Patients who require it need to keep it refrigerated at all times, and even stored that way, it's only usable for a month at the very most.

Most of the proteins in whey are pretty similar to HGH in terms of overall size molecular weight. If there is some benefit associated to HGH, I imagine that a comparable quantity of whey would provide similar benefits.

[C.Eymann]

I don't see how it could possibly help. Not only is it biologically inactive in corals (to the best of my knowledge), it's also a very "fragile" protein that easily denatures. I imagine that exposure to salt water would render it inert (even in humans) very quickly. There's a reason it's so expensive from the pharmacy. It's difficult to produce and transport, and has a very short shelf life. Patients who require it need to keep it refrigerated at all times, and even stored that way, it's only usable for a month at the very most.

Most of the proteins in whey are pretty similar to HGH in terms of overall size molecular weight. If there is some benefit associated to HGH, I imagine that a comparable quantity of whey would provide similar benefits.

Well I never gave my opinion if it worked or not, because I don't know alot about it, but back when I was super into the hobby a few years ago before my last tank crashed HGH was creating a big buzz in the sps community. I never really looked much into it.
I remember seeing it discussed in this thread in my lurking days
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=971190&pp=25&page=4

[ifarmer]

People are doing this every day. Going from led to either t5 or mh.
Alot of folks do have luck but a lot of advanced reefers all went back (after using led for a year) to t5/ or mh .

[kenpau]

People are doing this every day. Going from led to either t5 or mh.
Alot of folks do have luck but a lot of advanced reefers all went back (after using led for a year) to t5/ or mh .

I wouldn't call it 'luck', just that the people that have got good results with LEDs have applied them correctly, the people that have gone back haven't got something right, generally this means either:-

1. Not enough fixtures

2. Wrong colour spectrum/wrong settings

3. Cheap LEDs not up to the task.


Or a combination of above.

[RobTheReefer]

I wouldn't call it 'luck', just that the people that have got good results with LEDs have applied them correctly, the people that have gone back haven't got something right, generally this means either:-

1. Not enough fixtures

2. Wrong colour spectrum/wrong settings

3. Cheap LEDs not up to the task.


Or a combination of above.

Yeah, I think you nailed it.

[Mr. Brooks]

A lot of people are doing LED/T5.

Similar to how people supplement halides with T5.

I know I liked the look of my tank a lot more when I supplemented my halides with either VHO or actinic blue LED's. I don't think it's a big deal that LED's do better when supplemented as well. We've been mixing lighting types for years.

[d2mini]

I wouldn't call it 'luck', just that the people that have got good results with LEDs have applied them correctly, the people that have gone back haven't got something right, generally this means either:-

1. Not enough fixtures

2. Wrong colour spectrum/wrong settings

3. Cheap LEDs not up to the task.


Or a combination of above.

And the fact that "good results" means different things to different people.

[GroktheCube]

BRS posted up their next video today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTuj5MJCgpc&list=PLBaMLrfToJyybUT18OE3fMomFb9XU0ffC&index=22

They ended up going with Hamilton T5 retros and 2 Kessil AP700s installed in their canopy.

[mhucasey]

BRS posted up their next video today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTuj5MJCgpc&list=PLBaMLrfToJyybUT18OE3fMomFb9XU0ffC&index=22

They ended up going with Hamilton T5 retros and 2 Kessil AP700s installed in their canopy.

Based on their very good series of videos, this seems like a very sound choice.

[Settings]

I've said this before, but look back at all the RTOM tanks! Notice the lack of LEDs. Enough said.

[RobTheReefer]

BRS posted up their next video today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTuj5MJCgpc&list=PLBaMLrfToJyybUT18OE3fMomFb9XU0ffC&index=22

They ended up going with Hamilton T5 retros and 2 Kessil AP700s installed in their canopy.

I'm not surprised. It was a rocky start for me but I love my AP700 now. I'm also not surprised that brs is sold out. :twitch:

[ReefCowboy]

The host says "no heat" in this option?. 4x 80W t5 bulbs and two led fixtures with 185W each with their backs against that canopy with no fans?

[scrapz]

Metal halide and T5 are proven already to work independently and grow every type of coral under it successfully. Most of the successful SPS grown tanks under LEDs are always some sort of hybrid. LED has definitely gotten better in the last 2-3 years I've been away but it's still, IMO, not hit it's peak.

From a cost perspective. What what I've monitored, the initial investment is still way too high to properly cover a packed SPS tank. Sure, it'll pay for itself in 5 years granted it doesn't break before then. If it does break, how much will it cost to repair. IMO, anyone who has the money to deck out a large tank in pure LEDs are probably the people who would just pay for a new fixture.

If we took 3 identical frags and grew them out under each type of lighting for a year then placed them in each tank and took pictures, which would look best? I'd go out on a limb and say the results would be T5, then MH and LEDS being dead last.

Anyways, I'm using all 3 techs in my next tank, should be interesting to see what type of colors I'll be able to achieve.

[kenpau]

LEDs most definitely will grow coral as well as T5 or MH, however at a significant financial outlay.
Although the cost is obviously a downside it shouldn't be used to disregard the effectiveness of LEDs.
If someone wants to pay $300 for a MH fixture and someone else wants to pay $3000 for the equivalent output in LEDs to achieve the same result then that's personal choice, good quality LED fixtures are expensive but they do work.
I'd say the main reason 99% of TOTM is T5 or MH is for this reason. My LED/T5 Hybrid cost $3500, people might think I'm crazy but I'd rather pay out for a good quality LED fixture than run MH, just my personal preference.

[karimwassef]

LED is only expensive because it hasn't reached the scale of other lighting methods outside the hobby. The core technology isn't inherently more expensive if you count PAR/purchase cost.

It's getting there. As LEDs replace car headlights, street and building lights, the technology and cost will change significantly. We tend to inherit those effects in the hobby. Scale changes cost significantly. It's why a computer pad that represents the computing horsepower of an 80s supercomputer now cost $280 on Black Friday and fits in your palm, but there are no CRT tube TVs for sale.

The real cost of LED is probably ~$0.50/W for a low density build (takes up a large fixture area) to $1/W for high density build.

So a 180W high density build should cost the maker ~$200 to build. The fact that they can sell it for $800 is based on market forces. All will change- time is the great equalizer.

[scrapz]

Led definitely can grow coral, not debating that. Corals also look best under pure blue Led without question.

I just get tired of hearing how cost effective it is in the long run when people havent even owned the fixture for 5+ years. There's nothing wrong with spending big money on a fancy led but making false claims isn't helpful to the community either. IIRC didnt a certain gen of AI's blue pucks just die after 2 years of use? It'lll get there eventually and when it does, I'll be swapping over completely, just not yet:)

[C.Eymann]

Led definitely can grow coral, not debating that. Corals also look best under pure blue Led without question.

I just get tired of hearing how cost effective it is in the long run when people havent even owned the fixture for 5+ years. There's nothing wrong with spending big money on a fancy led but making false claims isn't helpful to the community either. IIRC didnt a certain gen of AI's blue pucks just die after 2 years of use? It'lll get there eventually and when it does, I'll be swapping over completely, just not yet:)

I think that is a highly opinionated statement.

[scrapz]

I think that is a highly opinionated statement.

I guess. The statement i should have made is is "Leds are best at showing off colors unseen in daylight spectrums". Personally I hate the look of pure blue leds but i can appreciate what they do, ie; orange passion or should i say blue tenuis?

[C3hutson]

I'd go with that too if I had $3k to spend on lights!

[dartier]

I am in the process of gearing up for my next tank build (a 300DD) and took the opportunity to take the plunge and buy off the shelf LED fixtures for a change (I normally DIY everything).

On Friday I bought 4 x AP700 and 3 x 80W LET retrofit kits. I will be using 3 of the AP700's and 2 of the LET kits for the 300, and will use the remaining AP700 with the other LET kit on my existing 120H. Since this is all taking place at the same time as a house move, I wanted a simple option for the existing 120H that would be easy to get going. The 120 is still at my old house, and just moving it will be nightmare enough without having to work out lights.

Dennis

[markalot]

Just for kicks, I discovered this tank today.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2293079&highlight=par&page=10 Post 248 is the switch.

Now that's how you setup LED IMO, lots of fixtures, the front ones aimed back. :)

[Coelli]

Just for kicks, I discovered this tank today.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2293079&highlight=par&page=10 Post 248 is the switch.

Now that's how you setup LED IMO, lots of fixtures, the front ones aimed back. :)

I've seen Dave's tank in person a couple of times, it is truly amazing. :)

[fishresponse]

Can anyone tell me if on single ended MH bulbs, what's supposed to be the bulb tip orientation? I don't recall from years ago. Up? To the side or aimed towards the bottom?

[power boat jim]

Can anyone tell me if on single ended MH bulbs, what's supposed to be the bulb tip orientation? I don't recall from years ago. Up? To the side or aimed towards the bottom?

I have run then both ways with no problem, but they tend to give a better spread with them run horizontally.

[fishresponse]

so you're referring to the "nipple" on the element (middle of bulb) pointed to the side? Or the actual bulb laying horizontally?

[power boat jim]

so you're referring to the "nipple" on the element (middle of bulb) pointed to the side? Or the actual bulb laying horizontally?

The bulb.How they are orientated in the socket itself after you screw them in is of no consequence.

[kupadupapupa]

I wanted to go back as soon as i first bought leds. I just cant afford to switch right now and the high cost of running fans and halides is preventing me. If anything i will go back to t5 or vho.

[ReefCowboy]

BRS should have gotten the ATI Led Hybrid instead of the ap700's and retrofit kits. These kits' reflectors dont come even close to the ATI ones, and in my opinion is the reason ATI fixtures are different from all other T5's ou there.

IMO the ATI fixture would be a much more guaranteed success

[atreis]

I wanted to go back as soon as i first bought leds. I just cant afford to switch right now and the high cost of running fans and halides is preventing me. If anything i will go back to t5 or vho.

No reason at all to go VHO. T5 is a good option for those that can't afford to really good LEDs - they're affordable, reasonably efficient, and effective.

[Zukari]

After three years of running LEDs I have decided to finally go back to halides.

Here is what I have found.

On my old 90g corner 2 hydras worked beautifully. The 90g corner had a small footprint and these lights produced very little shadowing. I was thrilled:

http://imgur.com/a/9n4B5

In these pics EVERY SPS you see (not a lot) started smaller than one inch, and grew wonderfully.

I then updated to my 125 standard and purchased a hydra 52 for the middle, and the two older hydras handled the sides. Three lights total. All of my SPS died, now to be fair at the time my alk was acting insane and things were not very stable due to the move. So once I had things stable after the move I tried with more SPS and LPS. I have not been able to keep an SPS coral alive for more than 2 months using these LEDs. I attribute this 100% due to coverage and shadowing after I got water stable. At this point my water has been stable for well over 5 - 6 months, and I can't keep them from slowly but surely dying from the top down. I have made slow changes, fast changes ... all of the things, and I just can't keep SPS alive.

I have decided to go the Cebu sun route with halides and T5s as I do not want to purchase 2-3 more 500$ LEDs and then go through the trouble of getting the spectrum correct again. Such a painful way to go about this.

So what I will say is, unless you have a small tank or the money to really get good coverage out of these LEDs... Then do not bother. If you can afford the coverage and have the patience to make them work ... then they will work well! I mean no hate toward LEDs, I loved these when the tank was smaller and allowed them to function at their max.. I will keep them for my next build which may be a 60g cube for just SPS to try this again.

My water husbandry has always been on point up until this 125, it has given me a lot of problems. After a year and a half I am ready to try something new for lighting if only as a last resort. I wound up going with M58 ballasts due to impatience, and USHIO 14k Bulbs with 2 Super blue ATI, 1 Coral Plus, and 1 Super purple - I hope that makes the tank look "ok" - I plan to upgrade to M80s and Radiums when I can find 3 M80 ballasts at the same time.

I feel bad for leaving team LED - and if it was not for the cost of 3 more Hydras (and upgrading my existing to 52) I would stick with them. Another interesting observation... SPS placed under the 52 would die within weeks. . When placed under the standard Hydras they would grow out some, but eventually shadow themselves at the base ... resulting in death. The standard Hydra so far has given "better" results than the 52, for both SPS and LPS.

Here are some pics of the tank now, apologies as it looks like death.

http://imgur.com/RwF1ufZ

http://imgur.com/LAkpEKh

http://imgur.com/XJWVprc

I tried tilting the lights around, placing them higher, lower, all of it. Shadowing all over, and eventually the SPS would simply starve at points and die out relatively quickly.

Params:

Alk: 146 = 8.1 DKH
P04: 0.0 - (this goes from 0 to .04)
PH: 8.0
Cal: 440
Nitrate: 2-5
Mag: 1400

We'll see what happens. Lights get here Thursday.

[gus6464]

Just for kicks, I discovered this tank today.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2293079&highlight=par&page=10 Post 248 is the switch.

Now that's how you setup LED IMO, lots of fixtures, the front ones aimed back. :)

Damn that's $$$$$$$$$.

[Johnseye]

After three years of running LEDs I have decided to finally go back to halides.

So what I will say is, unless you have a small tank or the money to really get good coverage out of these LEDs... Then do not bother.

My water husbandry has always been on point up until this 125, it has given me a lot of problems.

I feel bad for leaving team LED

We'll see what happens. Lights get here Thursday.


Did you ever measure PAR?

[Zukari]

Johnseye - no unfortunately. My club has one but the thing is always being used up. I should just bite the bullet and buy one truthfully.

I think my mistake was mostly messing with the spectrum. I have it set to currently "match" a 20k radium.. Right now the tank is very blue, but the Anemones love it, as do most of my LPS. The only coral I really have issues with is SPS.

[AZRippster]

Did you ever measure PAR?

I did, this weekend with my Seneye. Here are the readings I got in our 450. The only weird one was at 24". As with all PAR meters, they jump around allot. These seemed to be the most stable readings. These readings are under Hamilton Cebu Sun 400W MH fixtures with True Actinic T5.

Surface:
PAR: 387 LUX: 14079

6":
PAR: 363 LUX: 12983

12":
PAR: 336 LUX: 10719

18":
PAR: 328 LUX: 11239

24":
PAR: 265 LUX: 9045

30":
PAR: 309 LUX: 10072

34"
PAR: 295 LUX: 9550

[Johnseye]

Johnseye - no unfortunately. My club has one but the thing is always being used up. I should just bite the bullet and buy one truthfully.

I think my mistake was mostly messing with the spectrum. I have it set to currently "match" a 20k radium.. Right now the tank is very blue, but the Anemones love it, as do most of my LPS. The only coral I really have issues with is SPS.
I think a PAR measurement would help a lot to understand why the SPS corals aren't doing well.

With MH you can adjust PAR by height of the fixture but with some LEDs you also have the option of changing the intensity. This has a big impact on the coral, especially SPS.

[mussel and hate]

Zukari if the LED lights grew SPS well in your corner tank they aren't the problem.

[AZRippster]

Right now the tank is very blue, but the Anemones love it, as do most of my LPS. The only coral I really have issues with is SPS.

I consistently found over the past 4 years that LPS did the best under LED. The big thing I noticed was they retained their coloration much better than SPS. Many of my SPS would completely change color or even brown-out for awhile under LED. It's only been a week since I went back to MH but I'm already seeing many SPS transforming their colors indicative to where they were at time of purchase to include considerable new growth tips.

[Zukari]

Zukari if the LED lights grew SPS well in your corner tank they aren't the problem.

Please note, I said that the coverage is now the issue. For my 125 to be properly lit by LED I would need to purchase more Hydra 52s. I do not doubt that with more lights I would have success again.

The issue is I don't want to shell out that kind of money for 2-3 more lights when my current ones are already pushing 3-4 years of age. Thankfully AI has had no issue replacing the boards for two of the lights as they have already failed (again, replaced for free so I am not upset about this).

I will likely set my 90g back up and use hydras on it once more to prove that these lights can grow and color up SPS - you just need to have the correct coverage. I miss halides and the ease of use they offer. Please do not think that I doubt the ability of LEDs ... I only doubt the manufactures "36x36" inch coverage maps. The 90g is quite small due to its shape, allowing two of these lights to work beautifully.

[kenpau]

I consistently found over the past 4 years that LPS did the best under LED. The big thing I noticed was they retained their coloration much better than SPS. Many of my SPS would completely change color or even brown-out for awhile under LED. It's only been a week since I went back to MH but I'm already seeing many SPS transforming their colors indicative to where they were at time of purchase to include considerable new growth tips.

Out of interest what size tank do you have? What LEDs did you use? What spectrum did you run? And how many fixtures did you have?

[Reeftub]

I'd like to say as I have been fallowing this thread that I have a 190g reef tank and its dimensions are 60x27x27 and have 6 hydra 52 LEDs and 4 t-5 which I just added and the tank has been up for a couple months before its 2 yr anniversary. I have a hard time finding the sweet spot with lighting, alk, temp. But I have added corals and they have browned out and I have nit at 0 and phos at 0 and run gfo + bio pellets. I also bought a par meter and have learned to turn my lights down as I was getting 300 or more par. I have the parlor down to 160 and 4 hrs a day t-5 are on and hit 200 or 230. I'm waiting to see a difference in color. The reason I turned them down was the sps were growing away from my lights instead of toward the lights. http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/15/fc4f1e2bf35b68b5ec7755abcc2ce7ec.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/15/041a5e8a2bc5771132294704f4bb5b71.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/15/e1a49a6c2156f41275a38b1aa92b7192.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/15/b66dabd15bd08eddf1b0e88c469c2a5f.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/15/943b905c654fd76c713c90f4925de769.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/15/49366e596dfd20dda7fe2f875cde67a9.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/15/f832bca553b630a6a74aa8b5a44e6427.jpg

[AZRippster]

Not sure if anyone else has noticed this, but our pH has shot up since moving off LED and onto MH. Here is a thread recently started by another member who noticed the same thing but moving to T5.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2545619

[markalot]

Not sure if anyone else has noticed this, but our pH has shot up since moving off LED and onto MH. Here is a thread recently started by another member who noticed the same thing but moving to T5.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2545619

It was mentioned earlier in this thread, pretty far back I think, and I noticed it as well when moving from LED to T5. There's also someone on Nano Reef that noticed the PH rise.

[atreis]

Increased amounts of CO2 released by the symbiotic algae in the coral? Interesting, regardless.

[rgulrich]

Actually, an increase in photosynthesis would increase ph and decrease CO2. On the cellular level, the coral would retain the resulting O2, while the algae in the rest of the aquarium would release the O2 into solution. That would infer the new lighting system is more capable of propagating algae than the previous. That would lead me to suspect insufficient spectrum and/or output levels in the previous.

[AZRippster]

Out of interest what size tank do you have? What LEDs did you use? What spectrum did you run? And how many fixtures did you have?

To answer your question:

Prior to our current 450G, we had a 180G that I had done a DIY LED lighting setup for. It worked excellent and overall, the coral responded well. By “overall”, we found quite often the coloration of purchased corals would change, not dramatically, but definitely different. LPS always did well as did stylo and monti. There are a couple of shots included that shows the fixture over the 180 and then the tank just prior to migrating to the 450 in late 2014. Prior to setting up the 450, I consulted with Mike from Rapid LED (who I also purchased the components from for my 180 build) regarding recommendations for the 450. He suggested the Dual Aurora Puck solution (basically an EcoTech Radion XR30 knock off) and said for our size tank we should get 4. So that’s what I did. By the time this past summer arrived, I felt I wasn’t getting the coverage needed, so added two additional Royal Blue, with a bit of white, emitters to the fixture (pics included). This helped, and after testing for PAR with our Seneye, I confirmed we could easily get 300 on the sand bed (34”) if we wanted. You can use the Seneye to assist in adjusting your LEDs for the spectrum and output. The problem continued to be SPS response and coloring. We had several SPS brownout or just not grow. I finally removed the 80 degree TIR EcoTech Radion lenses that the Auroras come with and things began to improve. The light seemed more evenly spread and hot spots diminished. In order to keep the PAR up though, I obviously had to push the drivers harder which was not an issue.

One very drastic difference between the 180 and 450 was simply the LED density over the tank. The 180 had much better density and even coverage. This is something that is really coming to light in these forum threads and postings. I do believe LED work, but you need complete coverage and with that comes $$$! Our 450 is 8’ long with 30” front to back, so I’m very convinced we would have needed more than recommended. Secondly, I’m not totally convinced on the spectrum output. It’s only been a week and a half since moving to MH, but things have been changing at a very rapid pace for the good. I still have 4 – Aurora Dual Puck setups that are only a year old, so I’m thinking of building a hybrid T5/LED solution where the T5s primarily hit the shallower areas of the tank with the LEDs driving down to the sand bed closer to the front. This should provide the spectrum and shimmer, the best of both world. We’ll see…

[gus6464]

Increased amounts of CO2 released by the symbiotic algae in the coral? Interesting, regardless.

Makes sense actually. Photosynthesis takes CO2 and converts to O2. CO2 lowers pH. With new lighting system the photosynthesis activity is greater which means more CO2 absorbed and more O2 expelled so pH goes up.

When using a lighting system that greatly reduces shadowing more light hits the coral so more photosynthesis is occurring.

[AZRippster]

I posted this in another thread, but thought I would share it here:

At 2PM today my MH came on and the pH was 8.18. Before that it was just the 4 Super Actinics in each of the Hamilton Cebu Sun 48" Dual 400W 14K MH fixtures since 11AM. It is now 5:09PM, essentially 3 hours later. The pH is now 8.31 (make that 8.32 since I originally posted it). I never had this drastic of a pH jump with LEDs, EVER! I'm very impressed with the photosynthetic activity going on since going to MH.

[rgulrich]

@AZRippster - Halides do pack a punch, man. I had to make a choice between packing three more 250W to gain some coverage in my 300 or switch back over LEDs. Did the latter for at least a while, and I'm garnering some good growth again. I'll work on tweaking the spectrum a bit on the fixtures (break out the old soldering iron), but what the heck, it's still a hobby.
Hope your adventures are treating you well out in SV, man. Tell the Huachucas I said hi...I still miss hiking (and my house) out there.
Cheers,
Ray

[AZRippster]

Hey Ray,

Yeah, you remember the 80's. I was burning MH back then, 175s, but since getting back into it moved to LED. Now I feel at least with my last LED build, I wasted a year of my life. Good to hear from ya!

Russ

[rgulrich]

Good hearing from you, too, Russ!
I still have fond memories - fresh off of reading A. Thiel's treatise - of my, umm, "discussion" with Bob G. about the virtues of halide lighting when I built my first fixture back in the 80's. Didn't I get my first Iwasaki Eye 6500K from you back then sometime, too?
Heh!
Hope your adventures are still treating you well, old friend. Tell everybody I said hi!
Ray

[AZRippster]

I don't see many of the old clan anymore, but then again they are mostly up in Tucson. Bob G. is still around and still full swing in the hobby. He can often be found in Fishy Bizness in Tucson. Still maintains his website about the hobby too. Yeah, I think you did get those Iwasaki from me. They were bleeding edge at the time. I still have like 4 6500 Venture 175 lamps brand new. Those were the shiz back then too. Hey, whenever you head back this way for a visit, drop me a PM. Take care

[jestronix]

Careful with royal blue supplementation, I run T5 and halide and was adding royal blue about 20 leds in a puck design, some of my SPS didnt like it, so i turned it off and they are happy again, i had it on a very low setting. I often wonder rather than the common mistake of intensity , are some corals actually worse when led supplementing ?

[greaps]

I think LED's tend to create hot spots that coral either responds positively or negatively.

[JPMagyar]

This is copy of a post in the ATI thread, but I figured it was relevant to the discussion here. The main point is that even at very low levels (35%) I found that running LEDs for too many hours was detrimental to some color and health . . . .

So I'm about 4 months into using the ATI LED Powermodule and I feel I have seen some interesting results both positive and negative. Overall I feel the colors in my tank are outstanding, but I was struggling with getting reds and pinks to really pop, plus my stylophora that was directly under an LED cluster was "burning" on the top, and my strawberry shortcake was brown in one small area where it lay under an LED cluster, and I was having trouble with diatoms on my sand, and I felt my OT (Oregon Tort) was ever so slightly paler than I like. I therefore turned the LEDs off except for 1 hour in the morning and 1 hour in the evening. I had been running them 14 hours but only at 35% peak power. I didn't think they would have much effect at such low power.

It has now been a month without fulltime LED and I have noted several changes all for the better.

1) The brown area on the strawberry shortcake is almost all gone and the colony is regaining full color.
2) My purple humilis which was pale purple is turning radiant and deep purple.
3) My OT is regaining a deeper blue.
4) The pink birdsnest is turning to a glowing pink and a red coral that I have been growing from a tiny frag is suddenly changing from just dull brick red to a bright glowing red.
5) The top of the stylophora is healing.
6) A deep water suharsoi that was green is turning glowing white with radiant yellow tips.
7) A coral that was green with blue tips lost the blue tip but is now regaining the blue tips.
8) The diatoms on my sand are gone.
9) My purple efflo was dull purple and brown in the center and is now returning to all purple throughout.

Bottom line: 14 hours of LED light at 35% peak power was not good for some of my coral coloration. If I had to guess I would say that PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) is not as harmless as folks think. Although the LED looks dim to our eye the coral is feeling a firehose of photons that are turned on and off and this negatively impacts some zoox.

Not scientific at all just the observations of a long time aquarist, and before everyone gets all in a huff let me just add, I'm not putting anyone elses stuff down, I'm just making my observations and thoughts known to the forum AND I would note that Lunar (K. Tryc), arguably the greatest colorful coral grower of our day, had the exact same observation regarding the exact same fixture and even went so far as to remove the fixture and go back to a pure T5 setup. In other words please don't look at my comments as a put down. They are just one aquarists unscientific observation, so use that as any other piece of internet trivia with a proverbial "grain of salt".

Will try to get some photos later :D

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad115/JoePeck66/RC%20Uploads/FTSJan2016_zpsw6bjpolr.jpg?t=1454099050

[C3hutson]

This is copy of a post in the ATI thread, but I figured it was relevant to the discussion here. The main point is that even at very low levels (35%) I found that running LEDs for too many hours was detrimental to some color and health . . . .



http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad115/JoePeck66/RC%20Uploads/FTSJan2016_zpsw6bjpolr.jpg?t=1454099050


I guess my 14 hour DIY actinic strip(40 LEDs over 48") might be a bit much?

[Steve Atkins]

I guess my 14 hour DIY actinic strip(40 LEDs over 48") might be a bit much?
Might will depend on how long you have them on for each day.

[C3hutson]

14 hours at about 50%. Vho super actinic for 10 hours, 250 watt radiums for 7 hours

[Steve Atkins]

Probably within the range used by most but think I would go for a short photo period but at a higher power.

[Bpb]

This is copy of a post in the ATI thread, but I figured it was relevant to the discussion here. The main point is that even at very low levels (35%) I found that running LEDs for too many hours was detrimental to some color and health . . . .



http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad115/JoePeck66/RC%20Uploads/FTSJan2016_zpsw6bjpolr.jpg?t=1454099050


I'm sorry, perhaps I didn't read closely enough. But based on those pictures, if the tank owner is critical of his own colors...I can't help but equate that to an anorexic thinking they're fat. It's just nonsense. That tank looks like an ultimate end point goal of growth and color. Lighting debate aside.

[jimrawr]

I'm sorry, perhaps I didn't read closely enough. But based on those pictures, if the tank owner is critical of his own colors...I can't help but equate that to an anorexic thinking they're fat. It's just nonsense. That tank looks like an ultimate end point goal of growth and color. Lighting debate aside.

Why is it nonsense? He is noticing negative effects of the LED on his corals, I don't think he said he tank looks horrible. Its nonsense to discredit someones observations when hes so very clearly in-tune with his tank and the effects of new equipment.

[C3hutson]

Probably within the range used by most but think I would go for a short photo period but at a higher power.


I only have it this way to enjoy the tank during my waking hours. Maybe I should make a sacrifice.

[Ben.91]

You get the best of both worlds when you combined t5s with LEDS in my opinion.

[karimwassef]

I like MHs and LEDs

[Mek84]

Personally I would
Like to keep some LEDs in my mix for the money savings of switching bulbs. So I woul like to know if you guys think the mix t5 led is a better combo than led mh? I woul like to reduce the amount of time the t5 or mh run by using the LEDs to do the sunrise and set setting and minimize bulbs. So what do you think t5 led or my led.

Thanks

[Mek84]

And what would be the advantage disadvantages or both ?

[karimwassef]

I like the rapid growth and heat generation from my MH (yes- if I'm going to have heaters, I might as well have MH). I like the color (how it looks) and pigmentation (actual coral color change) from low wavelength LEDs.

Low wavelength LEDs also give me the option to use low K MHs (like 10K) to save on replacement cost.

[R_Mc]

Two questions and personal reports.

1) We are getting too much light with many common LED configurations. It's been my experience that a LED fixture with a significant number of royal blue leds will look rather dim, but will actually put out more photosynthetically active energy than reefers anticipate. You see it all the time, people put LEDs over their tank and bleach all of their coral. The coral bleaches because its receiving too much energy and dumps its zoox - coral does not bleach within days when it receives too little light. IT may fade over time, but does not bleach within days. The reefer then turns down the LED, but it takes months for coral to recover from an event like this. Go low with LEDs and you'll be rewarded - seriously, the lowest levels that you think couldn't possibly be bright enough for your tank. LEDs are putting out a lot less green light than halides, and don't look nearly as bright. But to the coral, that royal blue is often blinding.


2) LEDs put out no infra-red light / radiated heat compared with halides. If you stand in front of a halide, you'll feel the heat. LEDs commonly used put out no IR energy and I often wonder if this is the missing ingredient. To be specific, this is IR energy which directly imparts heat on the solid material it interacts with (coral tissue) think IR sauna. The metabolic rates of the coral we keep is very dependent on tissue temperature. My first guess is that people with warmer tanks have better luck with LEDs (80-82 degrees) - along with this, anyone with a tank at 75-76 degrees is going to have a lot of trouble with LEDs). I'd be very much interested in seeing people increase their tank temps or run IR leds to compensate.

[karimwassef]

IR LEDs!! You're a wild man!

[R_Mc]

http://glassbox-design.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/elos-20k-14k-metal-halide.jpg

Check that it+far it. I'm willing to bet that this bumps coral tissue temp up at least 3-5 degrees over LEDs.

It may be as simple as running our tanks 3-5 degrees warmer during the day if we're using LEDs. However, it may be that coral which requires more light also does better with a higher tissue temperature. It may also be that the water being cooler than the coral allows it to regulate its internal temp in some way, so IR may be the only answer.

[karimwassef]

I run up to 84F and my growth is insanely fast for some corals, but some frags just can't survive.

[R_Mc]

Higher temp also means faster proliferation of bacteria - which can take out frags with unclean wounds.

I am very curious about tissue temp vs water temp though. Wondering if someone with a laser thermometer could do some high light vs low light surface temp comparisons under LED and Halide (IE top side of a rock vs underside of a rock).

[Wazzel]

21 months LED and still not changing. I am still going to stick with LEDs work well once you dial them in for your tank. Definitely not plug and play.

[jestronix]

Two questions and personal reports.

1) We are getting too much light with many common LED configurations. It's been my experience that a LED fixture with a significant number of royal blue leds will look rather dim, but will actually put out more photosynthetically active energy than reefers anticipate. You see it all the time, people put LEDs over their tank and bleach all of their coral. The coral bleaches because its receiving too much energy and dumps its zoox - coral does not bleach within days when it receives too little light. IT may fade over time, but does not bleach within days. The reefer then turns down the LED, but it takes months for coral to recover from an event like this. Go low with LEDs and you'll be rewarded - seriously, the lowest levels that you think couldn't possibly be bright enough for your tank. LEDs are putting out a lot less green light than halides, and don't look nearly as bright. But to the coral, that royal blue is often blinding.


2) LEDs put out no infra-red light / radiated heat compared with halides. If you stand in front of a halide, you'll feel the heat. LEDs commonly used put out no IR energy and I often wonder if this is the missing ingredient. To be specific, this is IR energy which directly imparts heat on the solid material it interacts with (coral tissue) think IR sauna. The metabolic rates of the coral we keep is very dependent on tissue temperature. My first guess is that people with warmer tanks have better luck with LEDs (80-82 degrees) - along with this, anyone with a tank at 75-76 degrees is going to have a lot of trouble with LEDs). I'd be very much interested in seeing people increase their tank temps or run IR leds to compensate.

This I have always been curious about, direct radiated heat would also be true in the wild too, what is the real effect of that heat on coral tissue. Indeed could be what we are missing in LED tanks.

[DavidinGA]

Two questions and personal reports.

1) We are getting too much light with many common LED configurations. It's been my experience that a LED fixture with a significant number of royal blue leds will look rather dim, but will actually put out more photosynthetically active energy than reefers anticipate. You see it all the time, people put LEDs over their tank and bleach all of their coral. The coral bleaches because its receiving too much energy and dumps its zoox - coral does not bleach within days when it receives too little light. IT may fade over time, but does not bleach within days. The reefer then turns down the LED, but it takes months for coral to recover from an event like this. Go low with LEDs and you'll be rewarded - seriously, the lowest levels that you think couldn't possibly be bright enough for your tank. LEDs are putting out a lot less green light than halides, and don't look nearly as bright. But to the coral, that royal blue is often blinding.


2) LEDs put out no infra-red light / radiated heat compared with halides. If you stand in front of a halide, you'll feel the heat. LEDs commonly used put out no IR energy and I often wonder if this is the missing ingredient. To be specific, this is IR energy which directly imparts heat on the solid material it interacts with (coral tissue) think IR sauna. The metabolic rates of the coral we keep is very dependent on tissue temperature. My first guess is that people with warmer tanks have better luck with LEDs (80-82 degrees) - along with this, anyone with a tank at 75-76 degrees is going to have a lot of trouble with LEDs). I'd be very much interested in seeing people increase their tank temps or run IR leds to compensate.
I've thought of #2 before, yet when you consider T5 sps tanks they lack the radiant heat of MH's and can grow sps just as good.

[grigsy]

I switched back to metal halides with T5s almost 2 years ago now.

For sure I wont be going back to LEDs.

[JPMagyar]

I've thought of #2 before, yet when you consider T5 sps tanks they lack the radiant heat of MH's and can grow sps just as good.

Ahh, true, but then T5s do have a tiny UV output. Personally I don't think that is the primary issue, but I do think it is a sub-text to the issue of spectrum. LED manufacturers love to show nice smooth colorful curves representing the spectrum of their "white" LEDs, but the truth is if they used expensive equipment that measured each individual wavelength the spectral plot would appear digital with lots of spikes and lots of gaps.

Bottom Line: For me, results matter. Here's a one year progression of my reef under MH and T5. I lost some colonies and rearranged several colonies, but there are enough colonies that stayed put to be a good example of how effective MH and T5 are at growing colorful coral. I would note the GARF Bonsai, the purple humilis, Blue Stag, Purple Slimer, a. Microlados, and others all of which show awesome color and growth.

I think the best is the purple humilis. You see a tiny colony in the top right in the first photo and a year later it's a beautiful purple colony with perfect growth form.


http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad115/JoePeck66/RC%20Uploads/IMG_1917_zpsunu3fxzu.jpg

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad115/JoePeck66/IMG_3471_zps7tjessj4.jpg?t=1454498404


http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad115/JoePeck66/RC%20Uploads/IMG_3477_zpsigse6egt.jpg?t=1454502680

[power boat jim]

Joe,Its the MH light and the magic dust you obviously are sprinkling in the tank!

[Sensei ClamMan]

Have any changes/advancements been made in the 5 years since I went to LED's? I've got 5 Kessils 350's on my 180 SPS and I really like having my tank with no canopy now, I would want a similar pendant style if I changed back to MH, I'm not happy with the appearance of my corals anymore and the Kessils have been hardly trouble free, a couple have been replaced under warranty, control dials don't work the way they used to and there are a number of diodes not functioning so, what I'm saying is, if I have to keep fixing, buying or warranting these I might as well go back to replacing bulbs annually and have a great looking tank. I was hoping that I would have longevity and reliability and low power consumption as a balance to poor looking corals. I miss the growth and color even though they seem healthy. Any recommendations on pendant style? Hqi or mogul?
Thanks

[Bpb]

The Hamilton Cayman sun pendants are pretty nice. Maybe not exactly the 1/2 Soda can size of the kessils, but they can be hung and have quality reflectors. They're similar to the old discontinued Lumenarc Mini or the discontinued Sunlight Supply Lumenmax reflectors as far as the overall design. Can be found in both mogul and hqi. Which you choose would be up to you.

[JPMagyar]

I really don't get why LED lovers post in this thread and don't show pictures of their system. If you want to further the use of LED then post some photos. Nothing I'd like more than to look at another LED lit reef with purple and green and scraggly growth.

How about some LED reefs with progression shots like my one year shot shown above? Any LED reefs with nice pinks and yellows and nice growth forms?

Really I'm waiting to be convinced.

Wazzel, you keep posting. How about some regular photo updates to convince an LED hater like me that I'm wrong?

Oh wait here I have a photo of yours . . .

https://wazzel.smugmug.com/Other-2/Frag-tank-clean-out/i-4xNJfxS/0/L/image-L.jpg

That's a sick and anemic coral with crappy color. Yes, that is way harsh, but I am so sick and tired of LED promoters trying to come online and say well, I'm just happy with my LED lit tank so it must be "hunky dory". Good for you. Your coral sucks and is not healthy, but if you like that look great. Why are you posting in a thread about MH? Do you want others to convert back to LED? Do you feel a need to validate your choice? I think your choice sucks. That's America. Something for everybody, but man it ****es me off when LED folks try so hard to push their crap. Yes, LEDs allow reefs to survive, but the corals grow in weird forms and have lousy coloration. Some corals do well and some don't whereas all corals do well under T5 and MH. That's a fact. Get over it. Accept it and stop trying to convince intelligent people that LED light is other than half a success as of today because it's not. The real tragedy is that a whole generation of reefers is becoming enamored with this crap and has no idea how nice a reef can look or why their Microlados is turning brown.

[mbauma]

I have been running 2 hydra 52's on my 140 and have struggled with acros and some other corals. I ordered a Giesemann Spectra 48" and it will be in my hands on Wednesday. I can't wait. I have 2 Giesemann Megachrome blue 250 bulbs and 4 54 wt T5's along with the Luxcore ballasts.

I had my hydras mounted on top of the canopy/hood and will not miss that at all :)

[jminick2]

I really don't get why LED lovers post in this thread and don't show pictures of their system. If you want to further the use of LED then post some photos. Nothing I'd like more than to look at another LED lit reef with purple and green and scraggly growth.

How about some LED reefs with progression shots like my one year shot shown above? Any LED reefs with nice pinks and yellows and nice growth forms?

Really I'm waiting to be convinced.

Wazzel, you keep posting. How about some regular photo updates to convince an LED hater like me that I'm wrong?

Oh wait here I have a photo of yours . . .

https://wazzel.smugmug.com/Other-2/Frag-tank-clean-out/i-4xNJfxS/0/L/image-L.jpg

That's a sick and anemic coral with crappy color. Yes, that is way harsh, but I am so sick and tired of LED promoters trying to come online and say well, I'm just happy with my LED lit tank so it must be "hunky dory". Good for you. Your coral sucks and is not healthy, but if you like that look great. Why are you posting in a thread about MH? Do you want others to convert back to LED? Do you feel a need to validate your choice? I think your choice sucks. That's America. Something for everybody, but man it ****es me off when LED folks try so hard to push their crap. Yes, LEDs allow reefs to survive, but the corals grow in weird forms and have lousy coloration. Some corals do well and some don't whereas all corals do well under T5 and MH. That's a fact. Get over it. Accept it and stop trying to convince intelligent people that LED light is other than half a success as of today because it's not. The real tragedy is that a whole generation of reefers is becoming enamored with this crap and has no idea how nice a reef can look or why their Microlados is turning brown.


Lol this guy, props to your tank it's amazing but you need put in your place with the way you THINK you can talk to people. Just because you are at a computer doesn't mean you can be insulting and rude. All you are doing is making yourself look bad. I don't care how mad you are at people like wazzel, no reason to act like that. Stop crying about LEDs.

To wazzel, I enjoy your pictures don't listen to this guy. He clearly has issues if he feels the need to make himself feel better by bad mouthing other people's hard work.

[karimwassef]

coral branch thickness has more to do with flow than light - just for clarification.

:)

I'm a hybrid user myself.

[Sensei ClamMan]

I really don't get why LED lovers post in this thread and don't show pictures of their system. If you want to further the use of LED then post some photos. Nothing I'd like more than to look at another LED lit reef with purple and green and scraggly growth.

How about some LED reefs with progression shots like my one year shot shown above? Any LED reefs with nice pinks and yellows and nice growth forms?

Really I'm waiting to be convinced.

Wazzel, you keep posting. How about some regular photo updates to convince an LED hater like me that I'm wrong?

Oh wait here I have a photo of yours . . .

https://wazzel.smugmug.com/Other-2/Frag-tank-clean-out/i-4xNJfxS/0/L/image-L.jpg

That's a sick and anemic coral with crappy color. Yes, that is way harsh, but I am so sick and tired of LED promoters trying to come online and say well, I'm just happy with my LED lit tank so it must be "hunky dory". Good for you. Your coral sucks and is not healthy, but if you like that look great. Why are you posting in a thread about MH? Do you want others to convert back to LED? Do you feel a need to validate your choice? I think your choice sucks. That's America. Something for everybody, but man it ****es me off when LED folks try so hard to push their crap. Yes, LEDs allow reefs to survive, but the corals grow in weird forms and have lousy coloration. Some corals do well and some don't whereas all corals do well under T5 and MH. That's a fact. Get over it. Accept it and stop trying to convince intelligent people that LED light is other than half a success as of today because it's not. The real tragedy is that a whole generation of reefers is becoming enamored with this crap and has no idea how nice a reef can look or why their Microlados is turning brown.

Thing about having a hobby is exploring ideas and working on new methods and products to the best of our abilities. ****ing all over other people's ideas cause they don't jive with you goes against the whole point of having a forum in the 1st place. I loved trying the LED thing for the last 5 years to the best of my ability, I'll be happy to give my best with any products or methods cause that's what a hobby is all about so chill out, no need to insult peoples intelligence.

[Wazzel]

I really don't get why LED lovers post in this thread and don't show pictures of their system. If you want to further the use of LED then post some photos. Nothing I'd like more than to look at another LED lit reef with purple and green and scraggly growth.

How about some LED reefs with progression shots like my one year shot shown above? Any LED reefs with nice pinks and yellows and nice growth forms?

Really I'm waiting to be convinced.

Wazzel, you keep posting. How about some regular photo updates to convince an LED hater like me that I'm wrong?

Oh wait here I have a photo of yours . . .

https://wazzel.smugmug.com/Other-2/Frag-tank-clean-out/i-4xNJfxS/0/L/image-L.jpg

That's a sick and anemic coral with crappy color. Yes, that is way harsh, but I am so sick and tired of LED promoters trying to come online and say well, I'm just happy with my LED lit tank so it must be "hunky dory". Good for you. Your coral sucks and is not healthy, but if you like that look great. Why are you posting in a thread about MH? Do you want others to convert back to LED? Do you feel a need to validate your choice? I think your choice sucks. That's America. Something for everybody, but man it ****es me off when LED folks try so hard to push their crap. Yes, LEDs allow reefs to survive, but the corals grow in weird forms and have lousy coloration. Some corals do well and some don't whereas all corals do well under T5 and MH. That's a fact. Get over it. Accept it and stop trying to convince intelligent people that LED light is other than half a success as of today because it's not. The real tragedy is that a whole generation of reefers is becoming enamored with this crap and has no idea how nice a reef can look or why their Microlados is turning brown.
You really are an arrogant and condescending jerk. The chest thumping alpha male crap does not scare me.

One year of growth Feb 2015 and 2016

https://wazzel.smugmug.com/Other-2/7Feb15/i-PhJzbZb/0/L/DSC_0018-L.jpg

https://wazzel.smugmug.com/Other-2/Frag-tank-clean-out/i-r9ZvVGp/0/L/image-L.jpg

[jestronix]

You really are an arrogant and condescending jerk. The chest thumping alpha male crap does not scare me.

One year of growth Feb 2015 and 2016

https://wazzel.smugmug.com/Other-2/7Feb15/i-PhJzbZb/0/L/DSC_0018-L.jpg

https://wazzel.smugmug.com/Other-2/Frag-tank-clean-out/i-r9ZvVGp/0/L/image-L.jpg

Just read ur thread ,good to see a led build from scratch and doing well, nice growth, I'd like to see a halide over it for the photos, LEDs don't show up nice in photos. I can't help but wonder how insane this tank would have been under halide though. Interesting to see how it goes long term :)

[jminick2]

You really are an arrogant and condescending jerk. The chest thumping alpha male crap does not scare me.



One year of growth Feb 2015 and 2016



https://wazzel.smugmug.com/Other-2/7Feb15/i-PhJzbZb/0/L/DSC_0018-L.jpg



https://wazzel.smugmug.com/Other-2/Frag-tank-clean-out/i-r9ZvVGp/0/L/image-L.jpg


Wazzel TOTM!

[CHSUB]

"the gloves are off here".......wazzel, that's not to bad with LEDs, better than i did before i dumped them. however, is that a yellow tang in a 60 cube?????:hmm2:

[wildman926]

You really are an arrogant and condescending jerk. The chest thumping alpha male crap does not scare me.

One year of growth Feb 2015 and 2016

https://wazzel.smugmug.com/Other-2/7Feb15/i-PhJzbZb/0/L/DSC_0018-L.jpg

https://wazzel.smugmug.com/Other-2/Frag-tank-clean-out/i-r9ZvVGp/0/L/image-L.jpg

Awesome. Your tank looks great.

I would run the "whites" for minimum viewing time, and run your blues the greater amount of time. It will deepen your colors.

I see many colors in your tank, not a wash of deep blue as the so called pilot has.

[Hentz]

Oh Wazzel, quickly becoming a fan of this guy!
Looking into going full LED from my ATI T5 SPS tank. Was kinda sold on Hydra's until I read Wazzel's thread, along with a few others. I think today I'll be purchasing two Hydra 26's. LED's are amazing lights. It's about finding that sweet spot. Though T5's and MH are ALSO amazing. Each light will grow, color, and make the RIGHT user happy.

This was before I really got into the chemistry of SPS. While I was still a slight noob to Acros, I am still pretty impressed with the growth and color I had. Don't let the crappy photos fool you, I had some awesome color and growth in this tank until AEFW hit.


This was using Reefbreeders when I found my "sweet spot". Hollywood Stunner is smaller due to it getting to large and me having to frag it :P
http://i1350.photobucket.com/albums/p764/HentzReef/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsalvrnzhc.jpg (http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/HentzReef/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsalvrnzhc.jpg.html)

ORA Frag of some sort, forget the Acro's name.
http://i1350.photobucket.com/albums/p764/HentzReef/10394060_10152840513983088_5669809587248061881_n_zps36eb678f.jpg (http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/HentzReef/media/10394060_10152840513983088_5669809587248061881_n_zps36eb678f.jpg.html)

[CHSUB]

Oh Wazzel, quickly becoming a fan of this guy!
Looking into going full LED from my ATI T5 SPS tank. Was kinda sold on Hydra's until I read Wazzel's thread, along with a few others. I think today I'll be purchasing two Hydra 26's. LED's are amazing lights. It's about finding that sweet spot. Though T5's and MH are ALSO amazing. Each light will grow, color, and make the RIGHT user happy.

This was before I really got into the chemistry of SPS. While I was still a slight noob to Acros, I am still pretty impressed with the growth and color I had. Don't let the crappy photos fool you, I had some awesome color and growth in this tank until AEFW hit.


This was using Reefbreeders when I found my "sweet spot". Hollywood Stunner is smaller due to it getting to large and me having to frag it :P
http://i1350.photobucket.com/albums/p764/HentzReef/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsalvrnzhc.jpg (http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/HentzReef/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsalvrnzhc.jpg.html)

ORA Frag of some sort, forget the Acro's name.
http://i1350.photobucket.com/albums/p764/HentzReef/10394060_10152840513983088_5669809587248061881_n_zps36eb678f.jpg (http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/HentzReef/media/10394060_10152840513983088_5669809587248061881_n_zps36eb678f.jpg.html)

true....can see why you wanted to get rid of those Reefbreeders!!! hurting some of your corals....i would try MH with your t5s; you will be much happier!!!

GL

[Hentz]

true....can see why you wanted to get rid of those Reefbreeders!!! hurting some of your corals....i would try MH with your t5s; you will be much happier!!!

GL


FWIW, I went T5's was pleasantly happy. Actually probably going back to LED's.. Today ;)
Was going to upgrade my 24" T5 to 36" to fit my tank, but think I'm just going to jump the gun back to LED's as a 36" would make my room even hotter than it is..
I live in Vegas.. Summer is around the corner, and my room faces the sun. Not pleasant!

My father runs MH downstairs in the living room and it cooks the living room.

[milsaltnewbie07]

good thread .subscribed
This is my Tank with LEDs only before my major alk crash. Almost left the hobby after.
IMO the hardest thing about LED is finding the sweet spot. not like T5 and MH that pretty much plug and play. Another thing is PICS come out horrible under LEDS, at lest for me. You can never get the correct color. Specially purples and blues.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1444/24977376916_f1b4fb8611_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/E4azXA)tank2 (https://flic.kr/p/E4azXA) by rhymebusta101 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/139743081@N04/), on Flickr

[karimwassef]

well.. if it's cold - MH helps :D

[Johnseye]

I really don't get why LED lovers post in this thread and don't show pictures of their system. If you want to further the use of LED then post some photos. Nothing I'd like more than to look at another LED lit reef with purple and green and scraggly growth.

How about some LED reefs with progression shots like my one year shot shown above? Any LED reefs with nice pinks and yellows and nice growth forms?

Really I'm waiting to be convinced.

Wazzel, you keep posting. How about some regular photo updates to convince an LED hater like me that I'm wrong?

Oh wait here I have a photo of yours . . .

That's a sick and anemic coral with crappy color. Yes, that is way harsh, but I am so sick and tired of LED promoters trying to come online and say well, I'm just happy with my LED lit tank so it must be "hunky dory". Good for you. Your coral sucks and is not healthy, but if you like that look great. Why are you posting in a thread about MH? Do you want others to convert back to LED? Do you feel a need to validate your choice? I think your choice sucks. That's America. Something for everybody, but man it ****es me off when LED folks try so hard to push their crap. Yes, LEDs allow reefs to survive, but the corals grow in weird forms and have lousy coloration. Some corals do well and some don't whereas all corals do well under T5 and MH. That's a fact. Get over it. Accept it and stop trying to convince intelligent people that LED light is other than half a success as of today because it's not. The real tragedy is that a whole generation of reefers is becoming enamored with this crap and has no idea how nice a reef can look or why their Microlados is turning brown.

Throwing stones eh? Unconstructive and hostile post. I'm surprised to hear this from you. Bad day? Others with nicer tanks than yours show you respect and don't insult your tank. Also, this isn't just a thread about MH, and all LED users can't post here.

I do agree that I would like to see LED progression pictures. They appear to be absent from the entire forum. I could post some but they wouldn't be impressive. Since moving to Radions from T5s I've been disappointed. Some corals like it, most don't. My new fixture is a Spectra. Not everyone can have MH though. Let them be happy with what they can have.

[karimwassef]

I'd still like to see a side by side - same water circulating through both (guaranteed same calcium, alk, mg, salinity, pH and food), multiple species frags from the same mother corals, same flow, and just different light sources.

Then a fast forward time-lapse view after a year.

Then compare power usage, PAR, growth rate (weight?, length?), polyp expansion, coloration (how they look under the chosen light) and pigmentation (what their real color is under a standard source like sunlight) - over time.

Then it's data driven...

[Wazzel]

"the gloves are off here".......wazzel, that's not to bad with LEDs, better than i did before i dumped them. however, is that a yellow tang in a 60 cube?????:hmm2:

The yellow tang is getting a bigger home. I am upgrading to a 120 as soon as I can get the bits built. Today I stained the stand. He started out as a little guy almost 2 years ago.

[jda]

For me, this is still pretty easy. I have never seen a tank under LED that would not have looked better with fluorescent or metal halide. Ever. I live in Colorado, where it does not get too hot, heat is a blessing for 10-11 months of the year and at less than a dime a kWH, it costs about 50 cents a day to run a pair of HQI all day. I also have big tanks where 8-12 fixtures could get pretty costly compared to a reflector. Lastly, I know better... this is where I come off like an arse, but I have seen good tanks for the last 20 years and know what to expect out of good lighting.

[gus6464]

I wonder if electricity was free if all the LED folk would still run LED.

[d2mini]

I am upgrading to a 120 as soon as I can get the bits built. Today I stained the stand.

WOOO-WOOOOoooo! :D
Build thread yet?

[Wazzel]

WOOO-WOOOOoooo! :D
Build thread yet?

Yup

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2519918

[d2mini]

That's why I didn't see it... always forget to go in the sps forum. :D

[Drae]

I'd still like to see a side by side - same water circulating through both (guaranteed same calcium, alk, mg, salinity, pH and food), multiple species frags from the same mother corals, same flow, and just different light sources.

Then a fast forward time-lapse view after a year.

Then compare power usage, PAR, growth rate (weight?, length?), polyp expansion, coloration (how they look under the chosen light) and pigmentation (what their real color is under a standard source like sunlight) - over time.

Then it's data driven...
Vivid aquariums did an amazing side by side of led and halide in the same 800 gallon tank. Check it out.

[heritage]

Vivid aquariums did an amazing side by side of led and halide in the same 800 gallon tank. Check it out.

Then decided to go back to running mh. Actually mh led mix.

[MidwesternTexan]

I wonder if electricity was free if all the LED folk would still run LED.

For many (me), it's not so much about power usage,
but rather bulb costs for 10-15 yrs mostly.

I started with PC's, and went to LED's-
However, I too like the look of T5's and also Halides.

It seems, many/most Halide are also running some type of hybrid T5, or Leds with them often as well.

[Wazzel]

I wonder if electricity was free if all the LED folk would still run LED.

Not sure for me. I have run VHO only, mh/VHO and LED only. My results have been similar no matter the lighting system. Each one has its pros and cons. I like not having the big bulky canopy to hide the big bulk lighting system over my tank.

I honestly feel the whole lighting system debate is along the lines of Ford vs Chevy. In the end they are comparable and it just boils down to preference.

[heritage]

Not sure for me. I have run VHO only, mh/VHO and LED only. My results have been similar no matter the lighting system. Each one has its pros and cons. I like not having the big bulky canopy to hide the big bulk lighting system over my tank.

I honestly feel the whole lighting system debate is along the lines of Ford vs Chevy. In the end they are comparable and it just boils down to preference.

Dodge is better anyway. :p

[Wazzel]

Dodge is better anyway. :p

:p. I am not really a truck guy, but do like a sense of humor. I drive a ford, but it was free. It is my beater for doing this that and the other, my normal dive is a Mazda 3.

[heritage]

:p. I am not really a truck guy, but do like a sense of humor. I drive a ford, but it was free. It is my beater for doing this that and the other, my normal dive is a Mazda 3.

I like any make specially when it's free. :thumbsup:

[Wazzel]

I like any make specially when it's free. :thumbsup:

16 year old hand me down from my dad. He figured for the $1,000 he would get in trade it would be worth it to let me have it instead.

[Drae]

Then decided to go back to running mh. Actually mh led mix.

Exactly. ;)

[karimwassef]

Vivid aquariums did an amazing side by side of led and halide in the same 800 gallon tank. Check it out.

got a link?

[koral_lover]

Ahh, true, but then T5s do have a tiny UV output. Personally I don't think that is the primary issue, but I do think it is a sub-text to the issue of spectrum. LED manufacturers love to show nice smooth colorful curves representing the spectrum of their "white" LEDs, but the truth is if they used expensive equipment that measured each individual wavelength the spectral plot would appear digital with lots of spikes and lots of gaps.

Bottom Line: For me, results matter. Here's a one year progression of my reef under MH and T5. I lost some colonies and rearranged several colonies, but there are enough colonies that stayed put to be a good example of how effective MH and T5 are at growing colorful coral. I would note the GARF Bonsai, the purple humilis, Blue Stag, Purple Slimer, a. Microlados, and others all of which show awesome color and growth.

I think the best is the purple humilis. You see a tiny colony in the top right in the first photo and a year later it's a beautiful purple colony with perfect growth form.


http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad115/JoePeck66/RC%20Uploads/IMG_1917_zpsunu3fxzu.jpg

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad115/JoePeck66/IMG_3471_zps7tjessj4.jpg?t=1454498404


http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad115/JoePeck66/RC%20Uploads/IMG_3477_zpsigse6egt.jpg?t=1454502680

I see purple and green. Not much else. Pretty confident words based on those pics.

All jokes aside - all three sources of lighting work - each have benefits - so I have chosen to run all three. MH for natural shimmer and spectrum. T5 for coloration and to reduce shading. Led for the royal blue pop. All three support growth.

For me, leds made it so I don't have to run VHO actinics. Hard to beat the Royal Blues in terms of pop. I've experimented without running them at all, and never saw any improvement in deep coloration.

[heritage]

16 year old hand me down from my dad. He figured for the $1,000 he would get in trade it would be worth it to let me have it instead.

Nothing wrong with that.
I just figured I would try and lighten the mood a bit in this thread. But honestly Mark, I think you have one of the nicer looking led lit tanks that I've seen and you should be proud of your success. :thumbsup: Leds were a disaster for me so at least for now I will stick to t5.

[Aqualund]

Vivid aquariums did an amazing side by side of led and halide in the same 800 gallon tank. Check it out.

I would debate the amount and types of amazing sps they had on the LED side after that year.

[karimwassef]

anyone have a link to it?

[Aqualund]

anyone have a link to it?

google?

[Drae]

I would debate the amount and types of amazing sps they had on the LED side after that year.

Dave seemed like he was kinda pushing the led's for Eco Tech at first but then he made the switch back after about a year and a half I think. They used to post updates on the website but they have recently made a new page and it's totally different. You tube them. There's a ton of videos on you tube. I think that experiment is about 3 years old.

[heritage]

Dave seemed like he was kinda pushing the led's for Eco Tech at first but then he made the switch back after about a year and a half I think. They used to post updates on the website but they have recently made a new page and it's totally different. You tube them. There's a ton of videos on you tube. I think that experiment is about 3 years old.

Yup. I think I remember his reasoning being problems with growth and color.

[karimwassef]

Is it this one?

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/at21xN_6224?list=PLF423E3E71215D27D" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

or

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/IpJM-EIrPI0?list=PLF423E3E71215D27D" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

not really conclusive

[Drae]

No it's not conclusive on the you tube vids. I was checking them out after I made that post. Somewhere along the lines a little while back the conclusion has kinda been swept under the rug... hmm

[karimwassef]

I personally like all sources of light :)

I think someone just needs to be a true side-by-side... including weighing the corals for growth calc.

[albano]

I think someone just needs to be a true side-by-side... including weighing the corals for growth calc.

We all look forward to your test results!

[tlc]

personally i appreciate all the led users out there willing to take expensive risks to try to improve the hobby. led lights are like cell phones. there is a new latest greatest one on the market about every 6 months. i love mh and t5 combos. that's my preference for now. its reliable and proven. there will come a time when mh bulbs are extinct. look around you. warehouses, gas stations, schools, stadiums, houses, and many more are all switching to more energy efficient forms of lighting. i think we may only be a few years away from having a led light that everyone can agree will grow corals.

[karimwassef]

We all look forward to your test results!

It would take a much more accomplished reef keeper to do it justice. :)

[NotYoNano]

I would bet by now, there's been more money spent on researching efficiencies of led's than all the money put into research AND production of t5's and mh's.

I believe that justifies a resounding 'no' on the question of switching back.

[Wazzel]

personally i appreciate all the led users out there willing to take expensive risks to try to improve the hobby. led lights are like cell phones. there is a new latest greatest one on the market about every 6 months. i love mh and t5 combos. that's my preference for now. its reliable and proven. there will come a time when mh bulbs are extinct. look around you. warehouses, gas stations, schools, stadiums, houses, and many more are all switching to more energy efficient forms of lighting. i think we may only be a few years away from having a led light that everyone can agree will grow corals.

You are never going to get a consensus. So much of all the lighting debates revolve around preference and nothing else.

[slcgrad2k]

I'm on the opposite side of many comments here i guess. I love my leds. Have the best sps growth I've ever had. I've ran halides and t5 over the years and nothing compares to the quality as the leds. Interesting read here though. I've been running them now for about seven months

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
What brand and type of LEDs are you running? I'm starting a 120 gal and still on the fence.

[sleepydoc]

Part of the problem with this debate is that there are two aspects to lighting - how well it fuels coral growth and how the corals appear, and the two are not necessarily congruous. In addition, digital photography can be horribly inaccurate at representing colors, so you always have to ask if a picture is a true representation of how a tank looks, good or bad.

Another problem with LEDs is that there is a huge amount of diversity in LED fixtures; far more than with MH or T5s, meaning it's difficult to make blanket statements about LEDs since the drivers, assortment and quality of the LEDs can make a difference in how well they work. Since very few people have PAR meters much less spectral analysis equipment it's difficult to tell much of a difference beyond seeing how organisms grow.

There are enough stories of people having good success with LEDs that I don't think you can dismiss them. Likewise there are plenty of stories of people who haven't had success. My suspicion is that there are some species that will do better under MHs, and some that may do better under LEDs, but the factors I mentioned above make it very difficult to sort out.

[power boat jim]

Part of the problem with this debate is that there are two aspects to lighting - how well it fuels coral growth and how the corals appear, and the two are not necessarily congruous. In addition, digital photography can be horribly inaccurate at representing colors, so you always have to ask if a picture is a true representation of how a tank looks, good or bad.



.

This seems very true. MH looks to bring out better and somewhat faster growth over a larger spectrum of corals. However, it looks to me that LEDs bring out more color that the MH give the corals but dont necessarily bring to our eye. I have taken to running both but the tank looks best under the Radions only in the evening.

[karimwassef]

This seems very true. MH looks to bring out better and somewhat faster growth over a larger spectrum of corals. However, it looks to me that LEDs bring out more color that the MH give the corals but dont necessarily bring to our eye. I have taken to running both but the tank looks best under the Radions only in the evening.

I agree. It's not just a side by side of MH and LED...

It's MH1 vs. MH2 vs. MH3 vs. LED1 vs. LED2 vs. LED3....

Feels like one large flat frag tank with the same water but with light separating baffles creating a matrix of zones with different lights on top of each one.

That looks like a reasonable plan if you start with a large enough group of mother colonies to get equal size frags. It would likely take a team of coral surgeons to give each frag the same care so avoid skewing the results.

[lpsouth1978]

If you all look back in this thread, you will all see that I am a long time LED supporter and have a LARGE custom LED fixture over my 300g system. That being said....

The change may be coming for my tank. We have been having difficulty with color on many of our corals, and growth on nearly ALL of them. The only thing that is really growing is our montipora digitata (which seems to grow under any light). We just ordered a couple of 14k Phoenix bulbs, reflectors, and ballasts to see if that help things improve. We will be placing these over 1/3 of the tank and leave the LED's over the rest of the tank.

My first impressions are that the halide is going to improve the corals. It is MUCH more intense than our current LED's. We thought that the LED's were intense, but next to the Halides, they are quite dim. The biggest concern is not bleaching corals during the switch.

For those thinking that the problem could be something else... you're right, it could be. However, we have exhausted every other avenue in an effort to fix the problem. This is pretty much the last thing we can think of to help things improve. I will keep everyone up to date on the results.

[karimwassef]

Woohoo!! A side by side test with the same water.

Can you frag the same corals so comparable colonies live under each light?

[AZRippster]

I am SOOOOO looking forward to hearing/seeing your results with a side by side comparison. I should have done that too back in December when we stopped using LED and went to MH/T5 but really couldn't due to our fixture type. If I would have, I could show some pretty spectacular changes since we did 2 1/2 months ago.

[andrewbram]

If you all look back in this thread, you will all see that I am a long time LED supporter and have a LARGE custom LED fixture over my 300g system. That being said....

The change may be coming for my tank. We have been having difficulty with color on many of our corals, and growth on nearly ALL of them. The only thing that is really growing is our montipora digitata (which seems to grow under any light). We just ordered a couple of 14k Phoenix bulbs, reflectors, and ballasts to see if that help things improve. We will be placing these over 1/3 of the tank and leave the LED's over the rest of the tank.

My first impressions are that the halide is going to improve the corals. It is MUCH more intense than our current LED's. We thought that the LED's were intense, but next to the Halides, they are quite dim. The biggest concern is not bleaching corals during the switch.

For those thinking that the problem could be something else... you're right, it could be. However, we have exhausted every other avenue in an effort to fix the problem. This is pretty much the last thing we can think of to help things improve. I will keep everyone up to date on the results.
Following I thought you had gotten out.

[oreo57]

If you all look back in this thread, you will all see that I am a long time LED supporter and have a LARGE custom LED fixture over my 300g system. That being said....

The change may be coming for my tank. We have been having difficulty with color on many of our corals, and growth on nearly ALL of them. The only thing that is really growing is our montipora digitata (which seems to grow under any light). We just ordered a couple of 14k Phoenix bulbs, reflectors, and ballasts to see if that help things improve. We will be placing these over 1/3 of the tank and leave the LED's over the rest of the tank.

My first impressions are that the halide is going to improve the corals. It is MUCH more intense than our current LED's. We thought that the LED's were intense, but next to the Halides, they are quite dim. The biggest concern is not bleaching corals during the switch.

For those thinking that the problem could be something else... you're right, it could be. However, we have exhausted every other avenue in an effort to fix the problem. This is pretty much the last thing we can think of to help things improve. I will keep everyone up to date on the results.

you know that quantity of light is what counts..
mh have a lumen efficiency of 70-115
LED's currently are exceding 160l/w and will most likely keep rising...where MH is "stuck"..for the most part:
http://www.likeao.com/Upload/image/37-3.jpg

And 10 3W emitters is usually not 30W of "lumens".

If you didn't replace MH's w/ at least 1/2W of real watts of LED's for 1 real watt of MH you really decreased your overall photon count.

LED's MAIN strength lies in maintenance, flexibility, and directionality..
minor strengths are energy savings and a few others..

Oh and a meaningless statement..
a LARGE custom LED fixture over my 300g system.


What are the diodes runnig at, and how many..

[lpsouth1978]

Woohoo!! A side by side test with the same water.

Can you frag the same corals so comparable colonies live under each light?

Maybe I will buy a couple of frags this weekend, weigh them, and place them on opposite sides of the tank. This should give a solid growth comparison, and my new camera will give a good color comparison.

Following I thought you had gotten out.

Nope, not out, just took a step back while trying to get all of the params under control. Also added dosers, removed biopellets and GFO, and got params DEAD stable.

[andrewbram]

Well good to see you again.

[lpsouth1978]

you know that quantity of light is what counts..
mh have a lumen efficiency of 70-115
LED's currently are exceding 160l/w and will most likely keep rising...where MH is "stuck"..for the most part:

And 10 3W emitters is usually not 30W of "lumens".

If you didn't replace MH's w/ at least 1/2W of real watts of LED's for 1 real watt of MH you really decreased your overall photon count.

LED's MAIN strength lies in maintenance, flexibility, and directionality..
minor strengths are energy savings and a few others..

Oh and a meaningless statement..

What are the diodes runnig at, and how many..

Good Question. The light has 456 3W Cree XP-E and XP-G diodes. All of the blues (420-450nm) and whites (Neutral) are running at 100% @1A, UV-not cree (405nm) are at 100% @750mA, and the red and green are running at 2.5% @750mA. The light is about 5" above the water surface with no lenses. We will be adding them to the 450nm blues, but the rest are on pucks that do not have a good lens option. We tried several lenses with horrible results, but we still get ~300 Par on the sand and more than 600 Par at the top coral.

[biecacka]

Lpsouth, I am looking forward to your side by side comparison. Question tho, are you usin a par meter? I only ask because you said that the halides look much brighter than the LEDs and that is normally the case but the par numbers can be close. LEDs look dim which is why many ppl fry their corals with LEDs.

Corey

[d2mini]

I only ask because you said that the halides look much brighter than the LEDs and that is normally the case but the par numbers can be close. LEDs look dim which is why many ppl fry their corals with LEDs.

Corey

Exactly. Think of an LED like the sun focused through a magnifying glass.
The light coming through wouldn't like up the room, but it will fry a bug or set a leaf on fire in seconds. LED are a very intense, pinpoint light source.

[lpsouth1978]

Lpsouth, I am looking forward to your side by side comparison. Question tho, are you usin a par meter? I only ask because you said that the halides look much brighter than the LEDs and that is normally the case but the par numbers can be close. LEDs look dim which is why many ppl fry their corals with LEDs.

Corey

I do have a PAR meter and found that I get about 300PAR on the sand and ~600PAR at the highest coral. We will see how the MH compares, though I do not have any readings yet.

Exactly. Think of an LED like the sun focused through a magnifying glass.
The light coming through wouldn't like up the room, but it will fry a bug or set a leaf on fire in seconds. LED are a very intense, pinpoint light source.

Fully agree, I have not tested the MH with the PAR meter yet. I am waiting for the 14K Phoenix to arrive (should be delivered today). The fact that we are not using any optics on the LED's, makes them much less likely to fry corals. I believe that the lenses that come on the LED's are 120 degree. If the new bulbs arrive today, I will get readings after work today, otherwise I will get them once they arrive.

[oreo57]

Thanks for answering my question btw.
Though you also didn't state height from led to your par measurements.. ;)

Anyways some pertinent (or not) data regarding the Phoenix MH:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-04/ac/index.php

The light output of the six Phoenix bulbs shows an initial decline over the first three to four months and then levels off at about 75% of their initial output. From these data I raise the question: “If a bulb is not replaced at six months, when it has lost 20% of its output, then why would we replace it at 12 months when its output has fallen only another 6%?” It may be more cost effective to plan the lamp number and placement based on 70-75% of the bulbs' initial output levels. Initially, we could shield or raise the lights and then gradually lower or unshield them over the first four months or so, when the intensity is at its highest but falls most quickly. Beyond six months the bulbs' light output remains fairly constant at about 75%, so only minor adjustments would be needed for at least a year. Doing this may considerably extend the bulbs' effective life.

LED's age as well.....

[jda]

Please don't think that frying coral has much to do with intensity or output. It is more likely wrong spectrum and PWM that causes the suffering. I grew frags outside under the sun in direct sunlight in 12" of water in Missouri and all the coral did was thrive... and nobody is getting close to that. Anybody think that they have more LED output than 4x 250W 10K bulbs on M80 over a standard 4x2 120G tank - coral only thrives.

I appreciate your post. Many have gone back to MH, or just switched, from LED (especially on larger tanks), but most disappear from the boards or are hardly ever heard from again. I think that if more of them posted, then it would help SPSers in the future.

[jda]

BTW - I used my 14K phoenix bulbs for 2 years... no issues. I give them away after that to a guy who uses them for a few more on his FOWLR.

I hope that you are running them on M80 HQI. You will get only good results on regular ballasts, where as they are spectacular on HQI.

[oreo57]

It is more likely wrong spectrum and PWM that causes the suffering.
Part one I can understand..
Part 2 PWM??? any data on that?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388963

[oreo57]

BTW - I used my 14K phoenix bulbs for 2 years... no issues. I give them away after that to a guy who uses them for a few more on his FOWLR.

I hope that you are running them on M80 HQI. You will get only good results on regular ballasts, where as they are spectacular on HQI.
Point was in a few months they lose 25% of their PAR. Stable after that.. It isn't an "issue" just a fact...
People sure seem to confuse the 2..........

[USC-fan]

Before long this wont even be a option. Trying to find good MH reflector now and is kinda shocking how little selection there is any more....

Making me second guess MH to be honest.

[karimwassef]

Really? I haven't had that problem. The good ones are still around and very cost effective too.

[jda]

...so Coralvue Lumenarc Mini & Large, the half of a dozen or so offered by Hamilton are not enough?

Why do people keep on thinking that a company that SUPPORTS THE REEFING HOBBY will quit making products that people buy? It isn't like Hamilton is selling Cozumel Sun reflectors to light street corners, or that a Lumenarc Mini lights warehouses. They make them, and make profit, because people in this very hobby want them and will pay for them. They will always be around until there is a better alternative... and if that day should ever come (not likely with the current bunch of stuff on the market), then nobody will care anyway. URI still makes VHO bulbs. Phoenix figured out that LED were not going anywhere and started to make their bulbs again. Hamilton is doing well. The bigger threat to reefing companies is IP theft from China, rather than new tech.

As for the PWM - I have no facts, just observations and supposition from a hobbyist. I will say this, JP has had more success with his reef tanks than Pacific Sun has had with all of their "facts..." again, just an observation.

[Nano sapiens]

Please don't think that frying coral has much to do with intensity or output. It is more likely wrong spectrum and PWM that causes the suffering. I grew frags outside under the sun in direct sunlight in 12" of water in Missouri and all the coral did was thrive... and nobody is getting close to that. Anybody think that they have more LED output than 4x 250W 10K bulbs on M80 over a standard 4x2 120G tank - coral only thrives.

Addressing some of these points:

Incorrect Spectrum: The spectrum can be 'wrong' if it doesn't mimic the light field found at the depth that the coral is comfortable at. LED arrays tend to be heavy on the blue since even 'white' LEDs are blues with a phosphor coating to produce additonal hues. Having so much blue, they can over stimulate photosythesis (high PUR value) beyond what the coral can tolerate while still appearing relatively dim to our eyes.

PWM (Pulse Width Modulation): I have built LED arrays with Inventronics direct drivers and Meanwell drivers (PWM) over the same tank/corals and I have not noted any differences in the way that coral respond (including SPS). Certainly no 'distress' due to PWM.

Coral under Sunlight (high PAR): PAR from direct mid day sunlight is typically quite high since it is a true 'full spectrum' source. Since PAR is the equivalent of all visible wavelengths between 400nm and 700nm, that's to be expected. However, much of the 'full spectrum' is not utilized (or weakly utilized) by the coral zooxanthellae. One can have a high PUR LED array (violet/blue) that will provide similar photosynthetic stimulus as full sunlight at a particular water depth, but it will have a much lower PAR value and appear 'dim'.

[oreo57]

They make them, and make profit, because people in this very hobby want them and will pay for them. They will always be around until there is a better alternative..

Actually in marketing that is rarely true.. They will be around only as long as a "sufficient" profit is make-able..or until a higher profit usable product is introduced..
business is in business FOR business.. not hobbies.. ;)
for awhile you end up w/ some "niche" manuf. that will make it out of, maybe even love, but it will not be a multi-supplier market..
Or one Chinese factory supplies all the product to "the world" under a few different names. "oh wait" that already happens..

[biecacka]

So am I reading this correct, "If I have the proper spectrum on an LED unit, I can run it full blast overtop one of my corals in 24 inches of water with no concern of frying it?"
I think that is one major flaw with LED's we don't have any consistent information. Everywhere I turn there are horrors stories of LED failures.

Corey

[oreo57]

So am I reading this correct, "If I have the proper spectrum on an LED unit, I can run it full blast overtop one of my corals in 24 inches of water with no concern of frying it?"
I think that is one major flaw with LED's we don't have any consistent information. Everywhere I turn there are horrors stories of LED failures.

Corey

not quite that simple.. What if you are 3rd generation cave dweller and suddenly thrust into the noon sun? You'd fry too.. ;)

[USC-fan]

...so Coralvue Lumenarc Mini & Large, the half of a dozen or so offered by Hamilton are not enough?

Why do people keep on thinking that a company that SUPPORTS THE REEFING HOBBY will quit making products that people buy? It isn't like Hamilton is selling Cozumel Sun reflectors to light street corners, or that a Lumenarc Mini lights warehouses. They make them, and make profit, because people in this very hobby want them and will pay for them. They will always be around until there is a better alternative... and if that day should ever come (not likely with the current bunch of stuff on the market), then nobody will care anyway. URI still makes VHO bulbs. Phoenix figured out that LED were not going anywhere and started to make their bulbs again. Hamilton is doing well. The bigger threat to reefing companies is IP theft from China, rather than new tech.

As for the PWM - I have no facts, just observations and supposition from a hobbyist. I will say this, JP has had more success with his reef tanks than Pacific Sun has had with all of their "facts..." again, just an observation.
Thanks for proving my point. Those are not even made any more. Sunlight supply stop selling MH product to reefing also.

Trying to find a short but wide reflector is impossible. Just trying to find any DE reflector is upsetting.

Both those companes list just one DE reflector. Cayman Sun - 250 Watt HQI Reflector and Lumen Bright Mini Metal Halide DE Pendant.

On marine deport, aquacave and bulkreef supply only list a single DE reflector. I cannot even find the Lumen bright DE reflector for sell through google.

So we have a single DE reflector that will not work for me because its too much of a spotlight. I wanted to run Phoenix 14k. Did they start making the single end version again? Really love the color of the 14k with HQi m80 ballast.

Now you see the problem?

[jda]

Which one did they used to make that you would be happy with? Was there one? I have 30 or 40 in my stash and I can take a look. DE does suck more than SE, that is for sure. The hard thing about DE in larger reflectors is that the glass is super important.

[Wazzel]

So am I reading this correct, "If I have the proper spectrum on an LED unit, I can run it full blast overtop one of my corals in 24 inches of water with no concern of frying it?"
I think that is one major flaw with LED's we don't have any consistent information. Everywhere I turn there are horrors stories of LED failures.

Corey

I do, but I took many months to get there from half power. Because of all the options in lights and differences in tanks it is much harder to get a handle on how they should be run. I am the only person I know that runs the lights hard and has success.

[power boat jim]

I do, but I took many months to get there from half power. Because of all the options in lights and differences in tanks it is much harder to get a handle on how they should be run. I am the only person I know that runs the lights hard and has success.

I wont dare go past 40% on mine. I use them in the morning and evening,MH run about 6hrs mid day.

[USC-fan]

Which one did they used to make that you would be happy with? Was there one? I have 30 or 40 in my stash and I can take a look. DE does suck more than SE, that is for sure. The hard thing about DE in larger reflectors is that the glass is super important.

Sunlight Supply Lumen Max Elite HQI.
Dimensions: 14.5" L x 14.5” W x 5.3” H

Yeah SE would be easier but they stop making the SE version of the 14k. Even in SE reflectors there are not much left out there.


I had my mind made up on MH de 14k set up w/ t5s but i dunno now. I was very shocked at the lack of product lefts in MH.

[biecacka]

I know you can't just blast them 100%! :) Wazzel, I was hoping you would chime in because I know you run yours @100% but it took awhile to get there, under no circumstance would I recommend putting new leds on a tank and cranking them up at full blast. But I also don't know everything..

corey

[lpsouth1978]

Thanks for answering my question btw.
Though you also didn't state height from led to your par measurements.. ;)

LED's age as well.....

Maybe this will answer your questions about the height.

We tested PAR tonight for both the LED's and the new MH. Here are the results:

LED side -

Top (3" below water surface) ~540
Middle (13" below surface) ~325
Bottom (27" below surface) ~230

MH side -

Top (3" below water surface) ~800
Middle (13" below surface) ~520
Bottom (27" below surface) ~360

Both sets of measurements were taken with the lights about 5" above the surface of the water.

This verifies that the MH is more intense than the LED's. We also like the look of the light from the MH better. We will give it a month or two and see whether things improve or not.

[biecacka]

I also like the look of halide compared to most LED's but I wonder if it is because of poor spectrum. Thank you for the numbers! What size watt halide were you using, and any clue on why there is a drop in PAR numbers? Earlier you said you have 300 on the sand and 600 on the top, not that those numbers beat the halide in question. But, if the test was done awhile ago, it shows that there has been a substantial drop in PAR from the LED's.

Corey

[oreo57]

I also like the look of halide compared to most LED's but I wonder if it is because of poor spectrum. Thank you for the numbers! What size watt halide were you using, and any clue on why there is a drop in PAR numbers? Earlier you said you have 300 on the sand and 600 on the top, not that those numbers beat the halide in question. But, if the test was done awhile ago, it shows that there has been a substantial drop in PAR from the LED's.

Corey
he can check this too.
The light output of the six Phoenix bulbs shows an initial decline over the first three to four months and then levels off at about 75% of their initial output.

Should find PAR is now 600

[oreo57]

Maybe this will answer your questions about the height.

We tested PAR tonight for both the LED's and the new MH. Here are the results:

LED side -

Top (3" below water surface) ~540
Middle (13" below surface) ~325
Bottom (27" below surface) ~230

MH side -

Top (3" below water surface) ~800
Middle (13" below surface) ~520
Bottom (27" below surface) ~360


so what is the watt estimate of each side?

[karimwassef]

I only run my DIY LEDs at <100% to simulate sunrise or sunset. The rest is 100%. I just size my LEDs to what I expect I need.

[markalot]

I do, but I took many months to get there from half power. Because of all the options in lights and differences in tanks it is much harder to get a handle on how they should be run. I am the only person I know that runs the lights hard and has success.

Hi Mark,

in regards to running them that bright, how much do you feed daily?

[Wazzel]

Hi Mark,

in regards to running them that bright, how much do you feed daily?

Just 1 cube of this that and the other.

[Wazzel]

I wont dare go past 40% on mine. I use them in the morning and evening,MH run about 6hrs mid day.

It ended up taking me somewhere around 6 months to get to full power. This is from memory and has been two years so I could be off, but the general process was.... I set a 50% reduction for 3 month initially and every time I added a coral I started over. As we all know it takes months to stock a tank, so my initial acclimation to the high power I run took atleast 6 months if not more because of all the restarts before being finished.

[Wazzel]

I know you can't just blast them 100%! :) Wazzel, I was hoping you would chime in because I know you run yours @100% but it took awhile to get there, under no circumstance would I recommend putting new leds on a tank and cranking them up at full blast. But I also don't know everything..

corey

Agreed. I tend to suggest people error on the side of caution and take longer than it seems you need to acclimate. Good changes generally do not happen in days or weeks, it is more like weeks to months. Often you just have to stay the course and wait it through.

[d2mini]

Thanks for proving my point. Those are not even made any more. Sunlight supply stop selling MH product to reefing also.

Trying to find a short but wide reflector is impossible. Just trying to find any DE reflector is upsetting.

Both those companes list just one DE reflector. Cayman Sun - 250 Watt HQI Reflector and Lumen Bright Mini Metal Halide DE Pendant.

On marine deport, aquacave and bulkreef supply only list a single DE reflector. I cannot even find the Lumen bright DE reflector for sell through google.

So we have a single DE reflector that will not work for me because its too much of a spotlight. I wanted to run Phoenix 14k. Did they start making the single end version again? Really love the color of the 14k with HQi m80 ballast.

Now you see the problem?

Usually the DE bulbs are used in fixtures. And the reflectors are always tiny. For better spread/less spotlight get a larger reflector with a mogul bulb.
That said, you can also check out ReefBrite. I'm running the Pheonix 14k in their MH fixture with led strips attached to both sides. This is over my 25g lagoon. It's a rectangle reflector rather than square.

[biecacka]

I wish my LEDs had an acclimation mode.
I have the big lumenarc reflectors that I used with my halide set up. 22/22/14 I think are the dimensions. The thing put out a ton of spread.

Corey

[RobbyG]

This thread is hilarious!
I remember many years ago another thread with a title like "Are you going back to MH after trying T5's". Wow people chimed in saying how T5's sucked and they were killing all my corals etc etc. Then that generation of reefers learned and adapted and soon T5's where the in thing. Let me give you guys some advice, I have been at this since about 1984 and I am also an Electronic Engineer.

1) Light is Light and a Photon of Light at a specific wavelength from any source is the same.

2) Any comparisons made about PAR like I saw on the previous page is useless unless your comparing the same amount of PAR and then seeing how much power is consumed. At the end of the day it's not about PAR but efficiency. If you want more PAR to match his MH then you need more LEDS. When you have matching PAR then the only test left is how much power each system is consuming to give you that PAR. And of course heat may be an issue for some.

3) The reason people are having so much trouble with LED fixtures is that they are extremely flexible devices that not only let you mix various wavelengths of light, but also at different intensities. Most people have no clue as to what setting to use so they use setting that produce the same PAR as their old system and also look good to them. The Looking good part may not be good for the coral and the PAR readings only tell you part of the equation, Unless you have a few thousand dollars worth of spectrum equipment you have no idea if that PAR value has the same concentrations of each of the wavelengths as your old MH bulb had.

4) Another Laugh factor is peoples statements about LED life spans etc. The question is Life Span of what brand of LED? I am not talking about Radion or Aquatronica or some cheap Chinese companies lights. I am talking about what brand of LED components are they using in their systems. I would doubt that a cheap Chinese LED will last longer than 4 years, on the other Hand something using "Cree" LEDs on a proper heat-sink will last a full 10 years before they need replacing. Half life of 5 years is no problem with most fixtures because most of them never need to be run past 50% if you have sized them right for your system.

Anyway folks I don't mean to sound like some sort of know it all, but this light debate goes on whenever a new system is becoming popular and when the dust settles the old one's sales are seriously diminished and people start growing coral just fine under the new systems. Also the die hard MH users will always use MH because it works for them and they wont switch unless something happens to their tank and they need to start over again. Look I don't blame them, if you can afford the extra electricity and the annual bulb changes then stick to MH or whatever works for you.

IMHO the only thing wrong with LEDs is that the owners are typically setting them to make everything look like eye candy without thinking of what all that exaggerated blue and actinic look is doing to the coral.

Rant Off :lolspin:
Robbyg

[jda]

They typical MH user won't switch because they generally have more experience, know what they are looking at and have yet to ever see a tank under LED that would not look better under MH. Anybody who say that an SPS tank looks just as good, or better, under LED than it does under MH lacks the breath and depth of experience to know better. Period. If other things are a factor, like heat, dimming, thunderstorms, etc., then cool, but nobody who know should/would ever say that they make the coral look better.

I was around when T5 came about and the only argument that ever was a huge factor was with cheap Odyssea, or the like, fixtures... or that there was no T5 substitute for Super Actinic VHO... or that they lacked 6' lengths and that 2 36" bulbs were twice as much as 1 72" bulb. I think that it was pretty evident early on that a quality T5 bulb on a workhorse ballast was pretty awesome. Nobody ever doubted that you could have an awesome SPS tank with T12s and T5s were and easy step for most. If you are thinking about PCs, then that debate did happen, but PCs did really turn out to be turds.

[RobbyG]

They typical MH user won't switch because they generally have more experience, know what they are looking at and have yet to ever see a tank under LED that would not look better under MH. Anybody who say that an SPS tank looks just as good, or better, under LED than it does under MH lacks the breath and depth of experience to know better. Period. If other things are a factor, like heat, dimming, thunderstorms, etc., then cool, but nobody who know should/would ever say that they make the coral look better.

I was around when T5 came about and the only argument that ever was a huge factor was with cheap Odyssea, or the like, fixtures... or that there was no T5 substitute for Super Actinic VHO... or that they lacked 6' lengths and that 2 36" bulbs were twice as much as 1 72" bulb. I think that it was pretty evident early on that a quality T5 bulb on a workhorse ballast was pretty awesome. Nobody ever doubted that you could have an awesome SPS tank with T12s and T5s were and easy step for most. If you are thinking about PCs, then that debate did happen, but PCs did really turn out to be turds.

Looks are a very subjective thing. I look at Coral and Fish and what I base their look on is what I see when I go Diving. I do not like an exaggerated look caused by Actinics etc because I am not sure if that's really very good for corals over the long term. I can see your experienced so you know what I mean by long term. Lets face it other people love the eye candy that you can get from other lighting sources so your statement is valid to me but will not be true for a lot of other people.

As for the T5 debate oh yes it was real, I was in the thick of it, I was an early adopter of T5's and at the time there was not a million and one bulb choices like today. I remember several threads comparing the two and most people saying that T5's were no good and that they would never switch etc etc. I am not talking about arguments based on supplemental T5 lighting, I am talking about guys who threw out their MH's and went T5 only and then said T5 was a disaster. It took a long time for T5 only tanks to get the acceptance they have today. As for T12's they were a non starter as an only light system, it was too hard to cram enough bulbs to get enough PAR and the selection of bulbs was always dismal.

As I said Light is Light in each wave length and the source does not matter! The only problem we have now is that the LED lighting settings need to be better understood by the masses and we need a few years for more tanks to mature from A-Z under just LED lights so that the proof is overwhelming enough to put this argument to bed for good.

Right now I am using LEDs and I am seeing a few issues, I have dialed back the settings a bit, checked them with the PAR meter and also visually so now I will let the corals adapt to the lights more slowly. I am fairly confident that in the end they will adapt, their may be a loss or two but that always happens when you do a major change.



Robbyg

[karimwassef]

I'm an electrical engineer too and while I agree that photons are photons, the biological response to spectrum intensity distribution is not. The same goes for the directional nature of the light sources- single source vs multiple directional sources.

I know you're trying not to sound like a know it all, but laughing at people isn't exactly supportive of different ideas.

I'm not taking a side because I think the light sources compliment each other, but they're not the same.

In terms of historical stances, I personally think HQI double ended and mogul designs are not equivalent either. There's room enough in the discussion for everyone to disagree :D

[jda]

It has been 6+ years with LED and we only still have the same promises as back on 2009-2010. It always "needs more time," "better understanding by the user," "better blend of colors," "too intense," or whatever have you. Not much has changed over the years. When is enough enough? T5 never took that long to get good.

BTW - I hate the way that coral looks diving, but perhaps I do not go deep enough. 14K phoenix or 20K radium on M80 is what I am looking for - crisp white with a touch of blue.

Since I don't think that there might be more than one or two people on this board that could effectively talk about photons or quantum physics, I never post this, but the statement that light is light and a photon is a photon is quite funny to me. With the infinite differences in each quantum of a photon of light, I doubt that 2 bulbs, diodes or tubes have ever been made that output the same photon exactly. ...so, in essence, it does matter where the light came from.

He is what I do not understand... say that you PWM a LED... does the sine wave drop off to zero when the PWM kicks in? Does the wave look digital if we had good equipment to analyze it? I know that all electricity has cycles, but the plasma/gas in a tube or MH bulb continues to burn which should keep the sine wave very steady.

[theatrus]

It has been 6+ years with LED and we only still have the same promises as back on 2009-2010. It always "needs more time," "better understanding by the user," "better blend of colors," "too intense," or whatever have you. Not much has changed over the years. When is enough enough? T5 never took that long to get good.


Mass adoption of LED lighting pushing high efficiencies and better spectral mixes? There are a huge number of lighting products available now which didn't exist 6 years ago.


He is what I do not understand... say that you PWM a LED... does the sine wave drop off to zero when the PWM kicks in? Does the wave look digital if we had good equipment to analyze it? I know that all electricity has cycles, but the plasma/gas in a tube or MH bulb continues to burn which should keep the sine wave very steady.

Its somewhat complicated by the exact setup, but without any output capacitors (common for high frequency PWM), the intensity does drop to 0 within microseconds (parasitic capacitance and wire inductance control this). Using any rolling shutter (phone) camera will let you get a wag on the frequency by the banding lines marching across the screen :)

A camera with a high framerate (say 240fps+) can capture an approximation of the flashes from a magnetic ballast HID lamp; it would look like a strobe light. Higher frequency electronic ballasts would not be visible as gas lamps don't drop to 0 output as fast as a diode would.

Its quite possible to provide dimming by adjusting the actual current limit of the switch mode cycles (usually +/-20% peak to peak, and run at a biologically improbably frequency), but I doubt as many people bother. The commercial fixtures don't generally advertise what they do, and I don't own any to tear down to see what their control scheme is.

[karimwassef]

jda- I'm not sure I understand the question.

Photons operate at a very high frequency compared to any PWM (THz vs KHz)... There's no comparison of sine waves here. The power source to an LED is a constant current DC source. That's pulsed on and off so the average power is reduced. Yes- when it's off, it's off. The period of "on" or "off" looks very very long to a photon source.

To us or to corals, they just look dim because biological receptors operate at an even slower rate. And the biological impact is the same. If you touch a 1000F piece of wood for one microsecond, do you burst into flames? No... Because the energy transferred is limited by the physics of the transmission and the duration of exposure...

[jda]

My point is quite simple... I don't think that anybody fully understands what a diatom is sensitive to, or not. Some of the better LED tanks that I have seen run at 100% with no PWM, so I have always thought that the assumption that the coral cannot "see" the strobe effect is probably a bad one. No real data, just observation and supposition.

How does anybody know what looks dim to a coral? ...or the organisms in a coral? I only see that some coral suffers greatly under LED and there has to be a reason, and nobody knows why which is proof enough that they are not fully understood.

[karimwassef]

I agree with gathering data and I run at 100% too. I only use PWM to transition on and off slowly. If I want to actually dim, I turn a set off.

Without data, I wouldn't side with pulsing light being negative though. If I were to consider a theory, it would be that biological tissue (from a dinoflagellate or my eyes) have response times that are more comparable than different?

[oreo57]

I know you're trying not to sound like a know it all, but laughing at people isn't exactly supportive of different ideas.



I know I shouldn't do this but the setup is JUST too good?
How is the above any worse than this:

typical MH user won't switch because they generally have more experience, know what they are looking at and have yet to ever see a tank under LED that would not look better under MH.

sorry just find that "special"....

Some of the better LED tanks that I have seen run at 100% with no PWM,

nothing to do w/ the fact that PWM "dims" the lights huh...

anyways, trace of an LDD output to the diode at 100%..(PWM not "enabled")
http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2013Q4/LDU-1000-NO-PWM.png
No PWM, IN: 24v, 756mA; OUT: 16.53V RMS, 970mA;Power IN: 18.144W Power OUT: 16.035 Efficiency: 88.37%

PWM "enabled" at 99%

http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2013Q4/LDU-1000-PWM-99.png
99% via PWM, IN: 24v, 762mA; OUT: 16.44V RMS, 957mA;Power IN: 18.288W Power OUT: 15.733W Efficiency: 86.02%


http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/showthread.php?691102-Mean-Well-LDD-H-vs-XPPOWER-LDU56/page2

I don't "buy" that waves of photons (even ignoring "out of phase" reflections ect ) effect single cell organisms that much. I do reserve the right to be proven wrong though. Stranger things have happened.
Not being wrong, that happens plenty..
http://www.cree.com/~/media/Files/Cree/LED-Components-and-Modules/XLamp/White-Papers/Flicker.pdf

all artificial light sources flicker

[lpsouth1978]

Here is a pic of the tank as it sits today. The MH are on the right side. The rest of the tank is still lit by the LED's.

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa336/lpsouth1978/FTS_zpszijmm1vy.jpg (http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/lpsouth1978/media/FTS_zpszijmm1vy.jpg.html)

[oreo57]

Here is a pic of the tank as it sits today. The MH are on the right side. The rest of the tank is still lit by the LED's.

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa336/lpsouth1978/FTS_zpszijmm1vy.jpg (http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/lpsouth1978/media/FTS_zpszijmm1vy.jpg.html)

Still haven't included est. of watt output on each side...

[lpsouth1978]

Still haven't included est. of watt output on each side...

Far right 1/3rd of tank (MH) is 500W. Each of the other 2/3rds (LED's) is 366W.

[ReefInterest]

For me, the jury is still out on the reef side of LEDs. However, I recently moved the contents of a 40 breeder planted tank (17" high) with 192 watts of PC lighting (Coralife) to a 26 bowfront (21" high) with only 32 watts of LED lighting (Marineland). The plants were pearling right away. The fixture was around $50 shipped on Ebay. I should save around $70 worth of electricity per year.

For planted tanks, I think we are there. No need for anything else but LEDs. Period, end of story. ;)

The 40 gallon breeder was recommissioned as a reef with two Fluval Sea LEDs (v1) at around 64 watts total (the fixtures cost $75 each on Ebay). We'll see how well they do when I begin introducing coral. Interestingly, they aren't high wattage, have surface mounted LEDs and have a wide dispersal, and claim to have a "good" spectrum for corals. We'll see...

[USC-fan]

Here is a pic of the tank as it sits today. The MH are on the right side. The rest of the tank is still lit by the LED's.

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa336/lpsouth1978/FTS_zpszijmm1vy.jpg (http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/lpsouth1978/media/FTS_zpszijmm1vy.jpg.html)

Why does the LED side look so much better? Is it just the photo or you running a very white bulb?

Far right 1/3rd of tank (MH) is 500W. Each of the other 2/3rds (LED's) is 366W.
WOW 500 watts. So you have 2x MH 250 on the right? It only looks like its lighting 1/4 of the tank.

[karimwassef]

Why does the LED side look so much better? Is it just the photo or you running a very white bulb?

Wow. talk about perception.. beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I was about to ask why the MH side looks so much brighter and nicer... :D

[USC-fan]

Wow. talk about perception.. beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I was about to ask why the MH side looks so much brighter and nicer... :D

Its looks washed out. Look at the rock. They dont even look purple but grey. Looks like a 10k bulb.

It might just be the photo.

[karimwassef]

That's what sunlight looks sparkling over living reefs. I don't think it's washed out.

The ones on the left look overcast and "cartoonish" to me.

It's not a criticism.. it's a reflection of expectations of beauty. It's just my eyes and brain are looking for different cues for beauty.

There's no right answer... just what you like

[lpsouth1978]

Why does the LED side look so much better? Is it just the photo or you running a very white bulb?

WOW 500 watts. So you have 2x MH 250 on the right? It only looks like its lighting 1/4 of the tank.

Its looks washed out. Look at the rock. They dont even look purple but grey. Looks like a 10k bulb.

It might just be the photo.

It is the photo that makes it look like that. The MH are 14k Phoenix bulbs. Having the different light sources makes it difficult to accurately show the colors. The MH are mounted front to back and are only lighting 1/4 to 1/3 of the tank. having a tank that is 36" deep requires more bulbs. If we switch to MH, we will have 6-8 bulbs over the tank.

[lpsouth1978]

Also, the rocks are not purple. There is still very little coraline growth on them. The rocks under the MH are actually what the rocks look like. The LED's make them look purple in the picture.

[USC-fan]

It is the photo that makes it look like that. The MH are 14k Phoenix bulbs. Having the different light sources makes it difficult to accurately show the colors. The MH are mounted front to back and are only lighting 1/4 to 1/3 of the tank. having a tank that is 36" deep requires more bulbs. If we switch to MH, we will have 6-8 bulbs over the tank.
Oh okay. Those are my favorite bulbs!! Im debating led vs those de bulbs myself. But i will be running t5s with either.

I see why you went led. That a lot of heat and power. If i get the reflector i want it will only take a single mh to light my current tank.

Just very hard to over look the led advantages.

[oreo57]

Far right 1/3rd of tank (MH) is 500W. Each of the other 2/3rds (LED's) is 366W.

Just for a bit of clarity..
If you divide the tank in thirds you have, roughly 183w led, 183w led, 500w mh ?????

and the color ratio of the led's???

[lpsouth1978]

Just for a bit of clarity..
If you divide the tank in thirds you have, roughly 183w led, 183w led, 500w mh ?????

and the color ratio of the led's???

The math I used is as follows (and is a rough estimation):

456 (total number of LED's)/3 =152 per 1/3rd
152 - 30 (number of led's not working in each 1/3rd) = 122
122*3watts = 366 watts per 1/3rd or 366w led, 366w led, 500w mh.

Hope this helps.

[lpsouth1978]

Sorry, the color ratio is:

32 royal blue (originally 62, but 30 are not working in each 1/3rd)
30 Neutral white
18 Green
12 red
18 blue
12 uv

This is per 1/3rd of the tank.

[oreo57]

The math I used is as follows (and is a rough estimation):

456 (total number of LED's)/3 =152 per 1/3rd
152 - 30 (number of led's not working in each 1/3rd) = 122
122*3watts = 366 watts per 1/3rd or 366w led, 366w led, 500w mh.

Hope this helps.
Yep much appreciated.. BTW: I've found this a fairly useful tool for a number of things.. Mostly rough estimates;Worked up a guesstimate of the 2 spectrums. Ignored R and G since you barely added anything and the ratio of white to blue was 1:1 Purple was 1/10. (100/100/20)
charts show est. mH's ect..

http://www.qualiteitems.com/images/mh1.jpg

http://spectra.1023world.net/

Play w/ it a bit w/ your own numbers..

Oddly the W ratio between the 2 is about the same... ;) Well yours is .73 Mine .82. (never mind, that is by area I believe)
Used 2 250W 14000k Ushio MH..
Couldn't tell what blues you used so just used CREE RB for the led's. And CREE neutral white..Semi LED 390-40o (opps, probably should shift that to 400-410..shifts the purple to the right and makes it better..score of 73)

[DavidinGA]

Here is a pic of the tank as it sits today. The MH are on the right side. The rest of the tank is still lit by the LED's.

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa336/lpsouth1978/FTS_zpszijmm1vy.jpg (http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/lpsouth1978/media/FTS_zpszijmm1vy.jpg.html)
Right side looks way way way better to me.

[Wazzel]

They typical MH user won't switch because they generally have more experience, know what they are looking at and have yet to ever see a tank under LED that would not look better under MH. Anybody who say that an SPS tank looks just as good, or better, under LED than it does under MH lacks the breath and depth of experience to know better. Period. If other things are a factor, like heat, dimming, thunderstorms, etc., then cool, but nobody who know should/would ever say that they make the coral look better.

I was around when T5 came about and the only argument that ever was a huge factor was with cheap Odyssea, or the like, fixtures... or that there was no T5 substitute for Super Actinic VHO... or that they lacked 6' lengths and that 2 36" bulbs were twice as much as 1 72" bulb. I think that it was pretty evident early on that a quality T5 bulb on a workhorse ballast was pretty awesome. Nobody ever doubted that you could have an awesome SPS tank with T12s and T5s were and easy step for most. If you are thinking about PCs, then that debate did happen, but PCs did really turn out to be turds.
I was a successful MH user that now uses LED. Your first paragraph is an extremely biased opinion. Some how MH became and arbitrary standard to some. If it does not look like a MH lit tank it is called bad, when in reality it is just different.

[Cyberdude]

Anyone watch the latest david Attenborough special? There is a segment where a group of researchers are growing and spawning coral indoors. With ocean water. And LEDs. Hydras :)

If you haven't seen it check it out. Amazing documentary.

[Wazzel]

Right side looks way way way better to me.

Both sides look nice. The do look different. I would be money he could have lied and said the LED side was MH lit and people would say it looked better. Observational bias is a powerful thing.

[karimwassef]

that's why I like the blend... you get the best of both

[karimwassef]

Yep much appreciated.. BTW: I've found this a fairly useful tool for a number of things.. Mostly rough estimates;Worked up a guesstimate of the 2 spectrums. Ignored R and G since you barely added anything and the ratio of white to blue was 1:1 Purple was 1/10. (100/100/20)
charts show est. mH's ect..

http://www.qualiteitems.com/images/mh1.jpg

http://spectra.1023world.net/

Play w/ it a bit w/ your own numbers..

Oddly the W ratio between the 2 is about the same... ;) Well yours is .73 Mine .82. (never mind, that is by area I believe)
Used 2 250W 14000k Ushio MH..
Couldn't tell what blues you used so just used CREE RB for the led's. And CREE neutral white..Semi LED 390-40o (opps, probably should shift that to 400-410..shifts the purple to the right and makes it better..score of 73)

Nice tool! How do you pick different color of LED? They're just identified by name brand?

[oreo57]

Nice tool! How do you pick different color of LED? They're just identified by name brand?

Click the items menu and add companies.
Expand the company menu to add colors/series types.
Raw diodes, fixtures,sunlight at various places ect..

Once you start playing w/ it it gets simple.

Once you generate a graph, click on it and it changes to different ways to view it, spectrum CRI, K.. ect

http://spectra.1023world.net/

You can adjust beam angle distance and use (fw,SW) ect..

[oreo57]

Sorry, the color ratio is:

32 royal blue (originally 62, but 30 are not working in each 1/3rd)
30 Neutral white
18 Green
12 red
18 blue
12 uv

This is per 1/3rd of the tank.

Made a chart w/ the above pattern. Tripled the CREE's due to them being listed at 1W
PAR estimate shows it probably was not the best plan.. ;)

CRI is 21 :eek:
K is off the baseline...

Did XP-e because it had all the color groups.. As I said only estimates..


http://www.qualiteitems.com/images/mh3.jpg

[Aqualund]

How are you producing light below 390nm on this graph? What brand of emitter is giving you <400nm leds, on the chart, and are you using them?

[oreo57]

OPPS above chart included the 2 MH.. Or what it would be w/ both combined

JUST LED (ZERO for CRI btw:):

http://www.qualiteitems.com/images/mh4.jpg

[Aqualund]

Damn you. I really liked the way that chart looked and I got excited. Now Im back here in reality, and it's all your fault =P

Thanks for this chart thingy...Ive been using photoshop and integrals to calculate this stuff, now I can do it much easier!

[oreo57]

How are you producing light below 390nm on this graph? What brand of emitter is giving you <400nm leds, on the chart, and are you using them?
They have "generic" LED's at 390..

And
SemiLED 390-400,, 400-410 ect.
True UV below 390 (say true UV) is not really considered and the argument as to if it is good for the "health" of corals is a .. well argument.
Certainly isn't good for ones own eyes..

LED's are not "strictly" spectral points.. range of wavelengths (albeit narrow) is contained in them...

Punching UV to create "sunburn" pigments is somewhat counter productive..opinion..

[oreo57]

Damn you. I really liked the way that chart looked and I got excited. Now Im back here in reality, and it's all your fault =P

Thanks for this chart thingy...Ive been using photoshop and integrals to calculate this stuff, now I can do it much easier!

your welcome..
And sorry..
Heat signature should have told me right away (>700nm)
I was going to delete/correct but thought it was interesting..

BTW: I always assume length = depth.. not sure though..

[Aqualund]

They have "generic" LED's at 390..

And
SemiLED 390-400,, 400-410 ect.
True UV below 390 (say true UV) is not really considered and the argument as to if it is good for the "health" of corals is a .. well argument.
Certainly isn't good for ones own eyes..

LED's are not "strictly" spectral points.. range of wavelengths (albeit narrow) is contained in them...

Punching UV to create "sunburn" pigments is somewhat counter productive..opinion..


Yes, all definitely debatable. In my personal quest to match sps coloration, shading, and growth of MH, I have not yet found an equitable solution with LEDS, but with led/mh or led/t5 combos....and so far it's pointing to either lack of spectral variety, or lack of spectral regions. Much work to do yet :)

[CHSUB]

LEDs are a great technology, it's just to bad the "light" they emit looks terrible.:hmm6::bounce1::fish1:

[oreo57]

Yes, all definitely debatable. In my personal quest to match sps coloration, shading, and growth of MH, I have not yet found an equitable solution with LEDS, but with led/mh or led/t5 combos....and so far it's pointing to either lack of spectral variety, or lack of spectral regions. Much work to do yet :)
IF they ever produce large watt violet based stable emitters you won't need to stress so much:
http://www.yujiintl.com/img/graphics/daylight-high-cri.png

http://www.yujiintl.com/tm-30-15-high-fidelity-full-color-gamut-led-lighting

If people don't like this color, they don't like sunlight.. ;)

Just add 420-430 blue... to taste..

[CHSUB]

If people don't like this color, they don't like sunlight.. ;)

Just add 420-430 blue... to taste..

i think most people convince themselves that they like LEDs....probably the same people that convince themselves they like broccoli over brownies!!!!

all the charts, graphs and degrees in the world are not going to change the fact that corals look and grow better with MH/t5s!!!!!

[oreo57]

i think most people convince themselves that they like LEDs....probably the same people that convince themselves they like broccoli over brownies!!!!

all the charts, graphs and degrees in the world are not going to change the fact that corals look and grow better with MH/t5s!!!!!


What is so special about MH/T5 photons??

answer: Nothing..

[Aqualund]

IF they ever produce large watt violet based stable emitters you won't need to stress so much:


Yeah, This. Once they make a violet based white led, we will be in good shape.

[oreo57]

Yeah, This. Once they make a violet based white led, we will be in good shape.
They make plenty.. only .5W... Now 1000's of those... ;)

http://www.yujiintl.com/files/high-cri-led-datasheets/VTC2835-YUJI.pdf

$950/1000.... 6500k listed but unavailable ATM...

[CHSUB]

What is so special about MH/T5 photons??

answer: Nothing..

comparing light at an elementary level is useless when talking about corals. it is akin to comparing potato salad and hippo tangs at an elementary level, they are the same; you wouldn't fill your tank with potato salad, would you?

answer: no, but they're the same...

[oreo57]

comparing light at an elementary level is useless when talking about corals. it is akin to comparing potato salad and hippo tangs at an elementary level, they are the same; you wouldn't fill your tank with potato salad, would you?

answer: no, but they're the same...
Take it up w/ Phillips.. ;)
With Philips CoralCare you enjoy the light quality you'd expect from traditional T5 fluorescent or metal halide marine aquarium lighting, but with all the benefits from LED lighting. CoralCare is designed to achieve an optimal balance between coral growth and natural reef appearance. All in a robust and efficient fixture that is passively cooled and easy to control. With a validated lighting recipe and optimized optics, we enable reefers to take the next step for their fish tank

http://www.philips.co.uk/c-dam/b2c/coralcare/philips-coralcare-led-aquarium-lighting-coral.jpg

http://www.coralpublications.com/CoralCare%20LED%20unit%20-%20Preliminary%20Field%20Test%20Report%20-%20FINAL%20v3.pdf
http://www.philips.co.uk/c-m-li/coralcare

Tell them they are wasting their time and you know better... ;)

Yes, preliminary, and not vs MH.. baby steps..
After one month of balancing lighting, flow and parameters, the study found there was little difference in the growth rate, coloration and shape of the coral, however there was a 30% higher wall–plug efficiency gained from going LED.

4 years of research.. thrown out the window...somebody ought to tell them.......... ;)

We have worked almost as indicated earlier, for 3 years year due to this illumination, and more than a year tested with the light formula.
So running my own tank (see diary) as early as May 2014. This light formula.
We also tested several aspects of the lamp on both scientific and consumer area.
Think color point range, light dynamics and set the way (check).

The most measurable research is still running at the moment and will be managed by Tim Wijgerde.


https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://www.zeewaterforum.info/forums/showthread.php%3F156463-Philips-LED-lamp!!&prev=search

http://s19.postimg.org/4b7cuxkmb/DSC_4545.jpg

time will tell..
The information I have is that they are available around May this year.

[T Haynes]

i have t5 8- 54w running on 120gal aquarium but thinking of switching to leds so ur saying leds suck on growing corals

Mine aren't doing to hot. Going to try t5 next