Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[crazy4reefs]

Evil Nemo...yes I'm planning on plumbing through the wall but my total run will only be about 4" from the tank to the "T". The stairway side of the wall is open (no sheetrock yet) I plan to run the plumbing in the wall cavity

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by RicoJ
The only reason why I am thinking that this clean out adapter might not work is because the column above the sanitary tee might not be high enough and I think that this column must be higher than the aquarium surface water. I could be wrong.

BeanAnimal?

The Tee is not really even needed on the siphon or emergency standpipes, an elbow could be used instead. For that matter, you could use an elbow for the open channel as well (you would tap the top of it for the air line). The Tees just make things easy to work with and allow the addition of a cleanout. You would be amazed at how much organic material can accumulate over several years. Fan worms, macro fauna, slime, etc.

Putting the top of the cleanout at or above the rear edge of the tank simply facilitates maintenance and will prevent the overflow of the system in the event that you have a leaking cap or wish to do service while the system, is running..

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by swilliamson
I'd like to get some clarification on some assumptions I'm making and any recommendations you may have regarding use with a surge tank.

I'm planning on drilling a series of horizontal holes in the upper-rear of the tank and installing a narrow, full-width box inside the display and a larger box for the plumbing mounted externally.

Sounds reasonable.

There will normally be 800-1000gph flowing with the 3-5g surging anywhere from every 30 seconds to 5 minutes (rate and specific volume tuned later.) After some rough calculations, even allowing for all 5 gallons in my external box at one moment, the water height would increase about 4.8" in that outer box. The main concern, as I understand it, is to ensure the siphon remains intact.

Tune the system for a stable siphon at the lowest volume of flow (no surge flowing, both buckets filling). Adjust the intake height of the open channel standpipe weir upward in relation to the siphon intake weir. This will force the siphon to always be submerged (unless it is not tuned properly and sucks the box dry). Place the emergency standpipe at the normal "last chance or there is a flood" height.

If the volume of the surges is such that the setup does not have enough bandwidth between NON SURGE and FULL SURGE, I.E. you can get it tuned stable while both surges fill, but the surges overcome the capacity of the system and kick in the emergency, then you need to add a second open channel with its weir situated AT or ABOVE the primary open channel weir height. This will pick up the slack.

In other words when you build the overflow box, add an extra bulkhead or two for expandability

Also, I read that installing a p-trap is "incompatible" with this design. Could you elaborate on that in terms of installing a trap in the secondary standpipe around sump level?

You will create a siphon in the standpipe unless the trap exit is a horizontal run that is at least (2) times the trap diameter and be vented, no different than the trap and vent in your bathroom or kitchen sink or shower. That is, you would need a P-trap, not an S-trap and it would add a good bit of complexity to the dynamics of the system.

[/b][/quote] I was considering placing a p-trap around sump water level and still submerging the end of the pipe.[/b][/quote] Asking for trouble with this setup

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by crazy4reefs
BeanAnimal, the tank is currently torn down so I have many options. It's a standard Oceanic 135...currently not drilled. I'm planning on drilling it and adding a coast to coast overflow. I would like to get it as close to the wall as possible so I'm considering all options including what you mention above. This would result in the tank being about 4" from the wall and a crowded sump area underneath.

Don't get too caught up on keeping the tank away from the wall. You will find that it will look good no matter what you do and a little bit of room behind the tank will make maintenance of the entire system easier.

Option two: plumbing it as you did, but run the lines to the sump in the basement via drilled holes in my hardwood floors. This idea is not winning much support from my girlfriend due to the holes in the floor and it also would still require the tank to be 4" from the wall.

Do you own the house or does she? Who wears the pants?

Option three: pumbing as you did inside the tank but extending the plumbing outside the tank through the wall behind the tank into the basement stairway down to the sump. Do you think the distance between the bulkhead and where the water makes it's downhill turn makes a difference??

This is cerainly doable but will make the setup much more complicated with regard to tuning and getting it "right". Why not cut out the sheetrock on the tank side and place the plumbing in the wall through the floor plate? You can then repair the sheetrock. You could also, instead remove the sheetrock on the stair side do the same thing, but frame an access panel in if needed. If the sump is in the basement, the siphon adjustment valve should be there as well (to prevent cavitation on the LONG drop).

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by Evil Nemo
A question or two?
If I understand correctly:
1.) Could I run from the bulkheads horizontally through an interior wall (4”), then to the sanitary T's? It would be a total run of appx. 5-6” from bulkhead to sanitary T's. Might this create too much air to purge out of the siphon channel?

That is a tough one to answer, as there are a lot of variables. You can make it work, but it will take some patience.

2.) The pipe above the sanitary T's can be a shortened length. I could shorten them, by cutting the female slip fittings without an adverse reaction ( so they do not project over the top of the tank).

Sure... see the reply above.

Also note that the air buffer in the top of the open channel TEE moves the small diameter air intake away from the surface of the water flowing through the standpipe. This somewhat helps reduce the sucking, faint slurping sound that the air intake makes.

3.) The primary reason to use sanitary T's and not elbows is being able to clean the lines? (except for the open channel which needs to be connected to an air line).
Thanks In Advance!

Yes... as noted in a post above, you don't NEED Tees on ANY of the standpipes, but there is some benefit to using them with regard to maintenance and even ensuring the system is quiet.

[crazy4reefs]

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
[B]Don't get too caught up on keeping the tank away from the wall. You will find that it will look good no matter what you do and a little bit of room behind the tank will make maintenance of the entire system easier.

[b] Do you own the house or does she? Who wears the pants?

This is cerainly doable but will make the setup much more complicated with regard to tuning and getting it "right". Why not cut out the sheetrock on the tank side and place the plumbing in the wall through the floor plate? You can then repair the sheetrock. You could also, instead remove the sheetrock on the stair side do the same thing, but frame an access panel in if needed. If the sump is in the basement, the siphon adjustment valve should be there as well (to prevent cavitation on the LONG drop).

[crazy4reefs]

Originally posted by crazy4reefs

There is entrances to the kitchen on either side of the tank which is why I'm so concerned about the space between the wall and the tank. I do plan to run the plumbing through the floor plate in the wall cavity.
Can you recommend a pump that will handle the flow from this system using 1 1/2 bulkheads and plumbing with a 10' head and 4 1 inch returns plumbed over the top of the tank. I am considering a Sequence Dart or Dolphin pump.

[dan3949]

I am modifying a reef-ready AGA 65 gallon that has 2 pre-drilled holes in the tank bottom. The tank was operating using a durso standpipe design on the 1" hole, and the return line used the other hole (a 3/4"). I decided to keep the existing durso standpipe in the 1" hole and am running a full siphon to my sump through the 3/4" hole (with a valve on the line to meter the full-siphon flow). I plumbed my return line by running a 1" PVC up the back of the tank, and over the tank edge (I did not see the need to drill the tank just for a return line).

I am operating the full siphon such that there is little to no flow through the durso standpipe. Since the durso is sized to take 100% of the flow, I do not see a need for a third line.

The system is dead-silent, the only noise is the hum of the return pump.

Any opinions?

[KristyS96]

Just wanted to share what I have so far.. I've been waiting for quite some time to get this started. I'll also be posting a video of the first time the overflow system starts up to see just how 'set it and forget it' it is

[amore169]

great ideas!!

[Reefer_KS]

Be honest with yourself now, if it was totally set it and forget it right off the bat, you would probably have to go and start building a new tank just to satisfy your urge to tinker.

I mess with mine all the time and still want to build another setup. The wife on the other hand, does not.

[BeanAnimal]

She is refering to the function of the overflow as "set and forget", which it is

[BackSpin]

"DAN3949" I have also done the same thing although I question it sometimes I have tested it agian and again, by pluging the main drain the second overflow handels it fine and makes enough noise to if I am home I will hear it, second if that drain got pluged up my 29 gallon sump would suck dry and shut off pump just before overflowing main display tank. I know anything is possible but I do not feel the need for a third drain on my set up but would use one if one could be added..

[teesquare]

Hey - guys...
1.If you read the ENTIRE thread, you will find a wealth of knowledge on the overflow BeAn has gotten many of us using now
2. If you modify it - don't expect it to work silently.
Simple?
Well, you do need three holes. And as you read the thread, you will see that they can be in a variety of locations ( in or out of the tank).
Do not complicate it - and it it works great. Try to "adapt" it....Well, "your mileage may vary......"
T

[BackSpin]

Ok I have read the ENTIRE thread and I have modified it and it does work silently, I did not say it did not. I stated to another member that I had the same issue with a RR tank and only two holes and made it work using old technolgy and nothing more. I dont know if you were trying to snap back so Im sorry if you or I took it the wrong way..

[teesquare]

No - I truly was not trying to offend anyone. I do see a lot of questions posted tho that are answered in the thread. My thought is that it will save everyone else time if the person asking the question reads the entire thread.
Yep - it is long....But an great deal of man hours in trying many permutations has been expended to see if this works or that works.
No offense taken, and none intended toward you, I assure you-
T

[TheFishMan65]

I have read all of the Herbie post and the first 44 pages of this one. I have noticed that everyone is asking the same questions and the BeanAnimal gets too many PMs. SO, I hope I am not stepping on toes, but have I got this right?

General Theory
There are two threads with similar designs the Herbie and the BeanAnimal this will hopefully explain the difference between the two and how they work.

The main theory behind this is a siphon drawing the water in. As long as the siphon does not create a vortex and suck air it is silent. The next step is that the output must be under water otherwise you will hear splashing. The valve is installed to regulate the water flow so that the siphon is created and can not flow fast enough to break the siphon by emptying the water chamber. This is all that is required, but there are two main problems:
regulation (so it is kept silent)
possible blockage (pesky snails or is that algae).

So the idea of an emergency drain came in. The emergency drain is set higher than the regular drain, and if the main drain becomes blocked takes a partial or full amount of the water. It should drain above the water so that splashing is heard if it is active. The Herbie method then balances the water height between the two drains.

Balancing can be very hard especially if the height difference was very small. Someone realized that if the water level is adjusted so that a small amount of water went in the emergency drain it was much more stable. But if the emergence drain is being used is it really an emergency drain? So a third drain was added (BeanAnimal).

From now on they will be referred to as the siphon, open drain and emergency drain. It is a personal call how much redundancy you want some people are talking four drains.

WARNING
This may not work with HOB they are siphon driven from the main tank. If a drain fails the water level start to rise to the next drain. Now there is less flow from the tank since the tank/HOB water differential is less. So the tank may fill up faster than the siphon can fill the HOB.

Siphon Drain
This can be a straight pipe. The only requirement is that it can not suck air. BeanAnimal shows an elbow, because of is relatively low water height. There are many ways to prevent a siphon this is just one. This should drain into the sump just below water level; too far and it will be hard to start the siphon. If there is a choice this should be the smallest of the existing bulkheads.

Open Drain
This is not used in the Herbie design. This is often made into a Durso type standpipe to keep it silent. It should have a minimal amount of water flow,

Emergency Drain
This should be higher than the other standpipe(s), but low enough that the water can create a full siphon if needed. Only have two bulkheads? Instead of using one for the Siphon drain create the siphon drain with piece of tubing going over the back. It will have to be restarted if there is a power failure, but you are no worse off then if you did not have it (is this an original thought ).

Siphon
As the water fills the overflow it will drain down the siphon drain. If the pipe can not handle the water flow with the valve all the way open you have a problem. Now back the valve off until the water level is just going down the open drain (BeanAnimal) or between the two drains (Herbie). Some people have reported problems creating the original siphon. BeanAnimal suggests a small whole just below sump water level. It can also help to have the siphon intake lower than the open drain so that it gets more pressure to start the siphon.

Stand Pipe
This is for those with an over flow box in tank. Do you need one? NO. The reason for a stand pipe is to keep to much water returning to the sump in the event of a power failure.

Screens
Required? NO. They are highly recommended to keep items from getting into the drains (even the emergency drain). This is a comfort level call.

Emergency Drain
Required? No. It will work without. You may just be asking for trouble. Once again this is a comfort call.

Two Drains – Over Flows
This is pure theory, but may explain why some people are having problems.

I do not think that two drains can have different flow rates unless one is to the top of the overflow. Assuming a level tank half the water will go into each overflow. So if they do not both drain half the water then one should eventually fill up. I said it was theory Also two drains are hard to adjust (so I have read), so I think the best advice is to tie them together before the gate valve.

Teeing Drain to 2 Locations
This is very hard to adjust. People have done it by gating one of the tees. Also both drains should be in the water for silence so both levels will need to be the same. Despite this I have read of people having one their fuges lower than the sump and/or the other way around. I guess that the water picked the easiest path and then created a venture that sucks the water out of the other container. Unless you want to fine tuning I do not think this is recommended.

Also if you tie them together too soon you break the siphon and will mix air in (pronounced noise).

I think the best might be to drain all pipes into a closed box and have the overflow of that feed the two (or more) section of the sump. Note that water will be pushed up the open and emergency drain to equalize the pressure need to push the water out of the box. (Another new thought??)

Guide lines

• Use the smaller pipe for the main drain
• Keep the drain return simple and as strait as possible
• Drain into a bucket (fixed water level) to keep the output level constant.
• Emergency drain is above the water; you get splash warning that something is wrong.
• Think about on over the top siphon
• Two drains should be tied before the gating valve
• Teeing the drain to a sump a fuge is not recommended
• Water level above pump should be constant

[BackSpin]

Very well no one is mad at no one. LOL. I have also read all of Herbies thread and still have not found a answer to my question or problem, so I have tried myself, But I have a RR tank and back corner overflow and was looking to see if I let the overflow box fill up to 2" below the teeth and had a full siphon pulling from the bottom of the overflow box bulkhead with a gate valve on the line, and had a second and third stand pipe in overflow box for emergencys would this be better to stop excess food and trash from entering the overflow box and sinking to the bottom to rot ? Or would this be a bad idea over flow box is 29" high to bottom of teeth..? Does this make any sense to anyone ?

[teesquare]

Nice synopsis fishman!
I like how you covered the DO's and DON'Ts.
And - I was not implying that the system is in-flexible ( I have made a few mods myself) but because it is a bit more complex than the other overflows most will see - I hoped we could keep it simple for everyone new to the concept.
But, you have done a good job on explaining and condensing the germain portions of the thread. my compliments!

Backspin - l will re-read and try to viualize your situation a bit....I will bet someone here has the answers!
T

[BackSpin]

Thank you, and again I am sorry too many times people get worked up over what they think is right or wrong and I agree there are too many people that just don't take the time to search or read existing threads for answers of what has all ready been done or answered, I see it all the time, it is just simpler to just reask the question but if you have been around just a short time you would know to look first. Thanks agian I really do love Reef Central

[teesquare]

Seriously, not a problem.....
We need the open discussion - friendly and frank without insult - to help us all learn. I thought I knew the best way to plumb an overflow, and then I read BeAn's thread....WOW.....
So, now it is the one I use when installing systems. And...who knows - from what we all learn from this system - there will be continued improvement on how to plan overflows.
So, do not be afraid to give input - the more we exchange ideas, more we all benefit.
T

[TheFishMan65]

I unfortunately have an old RR with 2 drains. I have read the whole post. I have not seen a fix other than the one I proposed.

But I have a question. I ran for years and never had an overflow (that was not man made) with one bulkhead for a drain and one for return. If all I change is the drain to a quite siphon am I really in any more danger than I was before. Don’t get me wrong I am going to implement at least one emergency drain. I think what I am trying to ask is this setup more likely to overflow for some reason. The only item I can see is the valve. IF (yes big if) something large goes down the drain is more likely to snag in this set up then an old one. Did I miss something?

PS. The old setup was definitely not ideal

[BackSpin]

I only run mine with one back up drain because and I repeat because I feel sure that under no normal cause will my tank overflow I have played out what it over and over agian blocking the main drain for hours then pluging up both drains my sump runs out of water before my display tank will top and main pump is shut down with float switch. Agian I have look at every way possibe to add a third drain and I can not see a way to do so, I know this is not the method that was designed hear but it is what I can do to get my tank dead quiet with no bubbles and salt creep in my sump..

[teesquare]

In my experience - this system is the least likely to overflow, due to the open channel, and then the emergency drain.
If you cannot have three pipes - I would suggest the emergency overflow, for sure, and then you may want to try the full siphon with that....but be prepared to drill the cap and add a -1/4'' or so -valve (converting it to a Durso type) if the siphon and emergency only hybrid does not work well for you.
It can take from a few minutes to a few hours for the system to balance itself, so don't panic because of noise when you first start it up.
Just make CERTAIN that your emergency drain is slightly below the top edge of the tank trim by - say 1/4'' to 3/8''. It will prevent overflowing into the floor.
T

[BackSpin]

Very true about emerengcy drain if the main drain does plug the water will rise very fast and it will consume the second instantly if there is not enough height for water to go it will find a pleanty of room on your floor..