What happened to the "Advanced" in Advanced Topics

[jerryz]

I always find it interesting that people are opposed to supporting a resource they use and find useful. 25/year is 2/month not like it's some gigantic barrier. but theoretically speaking would 10/year make a difference? In my experience no. The same people would complain in the same way. A logo and search being the benefit for supporting the site is an odd benefit and strange incentive to paying.

The limitations on search especially lead to repeated questions on the same topics.

[Poorcollegereef]

I guess not many people have not figure out the advanced Google search of entering a topic and then limiting the search to site:reefcentral.com.

Still, this hobby costs a lot of money and charging $25 might not seem like a lot to many people, but it is still $25. Think of all the little $25 purchases that land people it a lot of debt. To me, the fee is not truly supporting the site (not as much as banner ads, vendor fees, and data mining) so it just seems to be a silly to pay. (Please don't take offense any premium member who do pay, we all have different values to what we are willing to pay for, this is just something I can't/will not pay for just like some refuse to pay for other things... starbucks, HBO, ect)

The only real advantage of RC (for me anyways) is the number of hobbyists who could potentially respond back to a topic. However, the level of the hobbyist has been dropping or is becoming less vocal (not a reference to anyone on this thread :-) ). However, limiting things to a 24 hour delay might not solve the problem, because it still takes someone to regulate the posts, which has not been a strong point as of late.

I agree that opening up the search to all (or requiring paid membership which I wholeheartedly disagree with) might solve a lot of issues, but for many (within my experiences in higher education) people rather just have someone tell them the answer than look for it themselves.

Still, I think there is the difference between "hard" topics/issues and "advanced" topics. This thread should be fore the "high science/high hobbyist observation/more academic approach" Also, I think that this is the less "practical" forum area and should be more conceptual/scientific. I would consider the advanced thread as the "skunkworks" that is removed from the day-to-day mundane aspects of the hobby/RC and focuses on creating new knowledge and dissemination rather than recycling existing knowledge to new individuals.

[returnofsid]

I can't believe this thread is still going. What a bunch of hog-wash. In particular, this thread does not at all belong in this forum. I'd request it be moved into the Feedback forum, where it belongs!! Here we have a thread, complaining about Non Advanced topics, in the Advanced forum...and the thread itself is a Non Advanced topic, in the Advanced forum....

hypocritical maybe???

[KarlBob]

Originally Posted by Whalehead9

Because of the search fail for this site, unless your a paying member, Newbs are forced to ask dumb questions. They can't actively search the relavant posts

This has finally changed. With the recent forum software update, successfully searching the forum no longer requires catching a lucky break at 3:00am US Central Time.

Thank you RC staff!

[tabwyo]

Originally Posted by Poorcollegereef

Plus it is unfair to have a battle of the wits with an unarmed opponent. (no matter who you are)

Now that's how you call somebody and idiot.... I think. I actually have an exceptionally bright brain cell. But he's usually distracted by the other idiot cells around him.

The only real reason I paid in the first place was for the search function. I don't even post in the Advanced forum enough to make it worth a subscription. It's just that these types of complaints raise my blood pressure a bit. I've witnessed a few other reef forums "advanced" areas turn into a place where a few people sit back and call everybody who doesn't agree with them idiots. A few of them were so bad that you'd get PM's from members warning you not to argue with there resident expert or you'd get kicked off the site regardless if you were in the right or not.

[Poorcollegereef]

I think that debating what is "advanced" is advanced...

There is some truth to that "don't argue with expert X" most often it is said to a person who want to "show how smart they are" and picks fights with experts with short fuses. (although it happens the other way as well) Here the agitator, eager to prove something argues without a sound point (an unarmed opponent) in which fights someone with a good understanding. It is not fair for either side. As for the comment, it was meant to be read multiple ways :-P

[GreshamH]

Originally Posted by jerryz

I think the problem is, once a the noise to signal ratio reaches a certain level the real knowledge begins to migrate somewhere else.

Yup.

[CLINTOS]

A few of them were so bad that you'd get PM's from members warning you not to argue with there resident expert or you'd get kicked off the site regardless if you were in the right or not.



I will agree with you on that one I was kicked off numerous sites because I advocate ATS and mass doses of phytoplankton to increase pod population the message I got from a reputable site was that my advice should be taken with a grain of salt and that I am considered a beginner after 7 years and the thread was moved to just getting started lmao then I got banned for given bad info even thou it work's and is proven

[uhuru]

Hmmm I think what you are talking about. If you are who I think you are, then some very qualified people were more than willing to have an "advanced discussion" with you, but ironically you ignored all of their posts and turned it into a 1 sided "promotion."

[Poorcollegereef]

hummm, yes, advanced topics should be debatable, but there is a difference in "promotion" anyone who seeks advanced discourse should be willing to address and understand that there are problems with any approach... but preaching isn't good for the hobby. EVERYTHING in this hobby is taken with a grain of salt (hehehe, pun)...

[NirvanaFan]

I agree that there are far too many "non-advanced" posts in this forum. Someone politely moving them to a proper forum would be great. This goes for every forum.

The only reason why I paid for a membership was to give for a service I receive. This site is run pretty well and I have saved hundreds of dollars by buying things from people here and the knowledge I get from people here.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally Posted by tabwyo

Any topic that breaks it down past " it works" is avanced. What is rocket science to one is simply 2+2 to another. What is the "Advanced" title there to do??? Is it a sign saying "STUPID PEOPLE STAY OUT"??

I think you may be missing the basic purpose of the forum.

The "advanced" does not refer to your, my or anybody elses intelligence, it refers to the content as it relates to the current collective knowledge and state of reef keeping.

The forum is intended to be a place to pose, discuss and further those ADVANCED discussions. No more, no less. Most of the topics you are refering to have OTHER forums dedicated to their answers. It is not about smart or stupid, but rather a simple organization of information.

[Whalehead9]

Bean Animal is right on target.

[CLINTOS]

Originally Posted by uhuru

Hmmm I think what you are talking about. If you are who I think you are, then some very qualified people were more than willing to have an "advanced discussion" with you, but ironically you ignored all of their posts and turned it into a 1 sided "promotion."

No not me I know vary little about ATS I just agree with the person that advocated it or explained it in great detail it helped me solve alot of questions I had regarding smaller tanks for mandarins or how to potentially feed dandro's without sucking the food out of the system while controlling inorganics etc

[tabwyo]

I am not refering to anything other than not wanting to see this forum turn into a place where "experts" come to stroke their egos and talk down to people.

I don't think Clintos is SantaMonica. SM posted everything in absolutes. That aside, SM got run out on a rail because he went against the "in crowd". And if you read and re-read his ATS posts you can see it. A certain few telling him he was spreading bad information. Or he was using outdated methods. Or basically he wasn't right in the head because he wasn't addicted to the current system. I am certain Paul B would be the next target if he didn't have years of proof that what he's doing has worked for him.

[billsreef]

Not much point in talking about, or getting upset over the idea of paid access only, it's just not something on the table. Search works very nicely now that the upgrade is done, so anyone can go search

As for what's advanced, the answer depends on who's asking the question. What someone who's been doing this for 20 years might call advanced is likely quite different than what someone who's only been in the hobby only a couple of years thinks. Having someone read each and every thread to see if it's appropriate for a given forum is far to labor intensive and time consuming to be feasable. So the best is for folks to kindly (emphasis on kindly) guide any misguided newbies to a better forum to get there questions answered. However, it's also good to avoid becoming the "forum" police

[tabwyo]

Or quit getting butthurt when the occasional basic question is posted in here.....

[jerryz]

grg. Reminds me of the ferrari forums. the difference between the general forums and the owner (ie. read paid by virtue of having a valid VIN and other owners have to vouch for you) is night and day is but one example. the difference in signal to noise is off the charts. Without regard to the subject.

[tabwyo]

So what are you??? Signal or noise??

Above response isn't meant to be overly abrasive. Just what the hell are you talking about in reference to this topic?

[CLINTOS]

I'm guilty of asking some messed up questions that might seem basic to most but imo is vary advance imo I don't discuss cetain with anyone but keep it in my head for year's as to not get kicked off/booed off forum's

[OwenInAZ]

Originally Posted by tabwyo

So what are you??? Signal or noise??

Above response isn't meant to be overly abrasive. Just what the hell are you talking about in reference to this topic?

I can distill that for you

General forums = those without a Ferarri, who just want to talk about cool cars.

Owner forums = those with a Ferarri, who actually have nuts and bolts issues to talk about.

In RC's context:

General forums = N00b
Ownder forums = Advanced

While I agree with JerryZ that putting a dollar amount on access will weed out the lookie-loos from those who really want to talk shop, I don't think that paying a site fee should be a prerequisite for reading or even posting.

Ultimately, it's up the posters to read the prior threads and do some of their own research before asking a question that's been asked before. In my field, we call that putting on your big boy pants.

However, it's equally important that those with knowledge use it respectfully. Instead of clogging up the boards, use a PM or suggest that the OP move his/her post to the appropriate thread. That way, the post moves efficiently down the list as newer topics are posted.

Both approaches are critical. No one should be booed or heckled out of this hobby. We were all new once, and full of questions. God knows I've asked my share.

[Poorcollegereef]

I rather have a Lotus (although I love my Toyota too)

I keep coming back to finding a good way of making the advanced thread more "advanced" and it seems that there are pros and cons to a lot of approaches.

I started to bat the idea around about the post minimum (yeah, it is a measure about how vocal someone is rather than pure expertise, but after so many post I would think folks would know the rules if they had enough experience), and I was thinking a minimum of 500 posts would not be to bad (be able to read but not post new threads). While it is a high number, I guess the RC member would at least know the culture of the RC thread and respect it. On the other hand the 500 should not be a hard and fast rule. If anyone want to join the discussion, make it a 100 or a 250 post minimum to respond to an existing0 thread. And of course, if an advanced individual really wants access but is a new member, the merely need to PM a mod, tell them about the subject of the new thread, and they can get access, while those with more basic questions are directed elsewhere. I know there are probably issues with this approach, but it is just an idea that I have been batting around.

[BeanAnimal]

Folks you are making this too complicated. There is no difference between the advanced forum and the new to the hobby forum other than the type of information that is meant to be organized in them.

Post count has nothing to do with a persons knowledge (or lack of) any more than their ability to afford a paid membership.

As Billsreef attempted to point out, the helpfull and polite folks can help to guide posts to the proper forum when they are out of place.

The problem here in the advanced forum is NOT stupid questions, rather it is a lack of ADVANCED conversations and topics. If there was more activity of an advanced nature, there would be less off-topic posts simply due to the fact that most people would notice that the question they wished to ask did not fit into the context of any of the active conversation.

Lack of ACTIVE posting base has allowed the forum to wander on its own.

Let me be more clear. If very few people had chemistry questions, the chem forum would turn into a free-for-all as well. Lack of participation is what is killing the advanced forum, not the people looking for anwers to their common questions.

[Poorcollegereef]

BeanAnimal, thats a really good point, but I think it is a mix. I do think that a large enough influx of less-than-advanced topic has chased some folks out (or did not entice/attract them into the forum). What incentive is there to weed though algae ID to find the gem. And, are we loosing advanced topics to other forum within RC as well?

[tabwyo]

Originally Posted by OwenInAZ

I can distill that for you

Thanks, I am totally fried. Diabetic daughter with swine flu. Keeping her blood sugar up will fighting fever, vomitting and the uber doo doo's is takin up too much brain space right now. And it's made me a bit cranky. The signal to noise comment was out of line on my end.