ORP and Vitamin C

[Atomikk]

I hope Randy answers my question because this is killing me. I cant even sleep. I am experiencing a large scale STN session in my frag tank, which is all connected in a single system. The display tank has a few colonies that have some recession, but it is very minimal. I have ruled out a lot of things that could be the cause of my problems:

Pests, parameters (pH, salinity, ALK, Mag, Ca).

I even thought that my lights could be the problem from overexposure, but the corals are in direct light for only 8 hrs. I stopped using carbon a few weeks back, since i don't think was needed. I also turned off my skimmer, as I thought that I was experiencing a low nutrient system.


I was dosing vitamin C as soon as I saw some recession. In fact, I was dosing Sodium Ascorbate at around 5ppm for 600 gallons of water volume. What I did find is that my ORP has gone from a reading of 200s mV to around 400s mV. I didn't recalibrate this probe in a long time, so the readings could be off +- a lot. But it does indicate that there was a jump in this reading. Could this be a result in me adding Vit C? Would this create a level in the water that would be a cause for STN? Could this be a overproduction of bad bacteria?

I am perplexed, especially as a SPS veteran, and I have seen a lot come my way. Any light on this I would even pay for.

[Atomikk]

I forgot to add that after a week of seeing recession, I did a 100 gallon water change, which followed with more vitamin C dosing.

[Genetics]

Atomikk, high levels of dissolved organic compounds (DOCs) can be problematic to a reef ecosystem. If you are dosing 5ppm VC then I would suspect that it may be the amount of VC you are adding to your system causing the issue and not directly related to the ORP.

[tmz]

I'm sure Randy will respond.
In the meantime,the vitamin C is a reducer ; so it would reduce not raise orp as any organic carbon source in my experience.
Have you checked nitrate?
The cessation of gac use and skimming may have caused a rise in total organic carbon particularly with the vitamin C dosing and maybe even more so in the unlikely event of a nitrogen or phosphorous limitation on the heterotrophic bacteria that wouild normaly consume the organic carbon and be exported by the skimmer and gac. High organic carbon levels can upset the corals bacterial activity.Unfortunately tests for TOC are not available to most of us as far as I know.
Increased acidity and lower ph(more H+) will also bump orp up.
The orp levels you note should not, in my opinion cause stn but the underlying causes nitrate, ph , organics,etc.might?
Anecdotaly,as an sps keeper ,I've noted a few stn events over the years when gac was stale.
I too am looking forward to Randy's take.

[Atomikk]

As a litmus test if you have high DOC, shouldn't you notice a buildup of algae in your system? If so, I am not experiencing this, as I do not have a lot of algal buildup.

If not so, would large volumed waterchanges and wet skimming remove a chunk of the DOCs? Would this in turn help with the STN?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree the ORP is unlikely a problem. Vitamin C acutlly depresses ORP a lot. If it has risen, maybe you have developed enough of a vitamin C eating bacteria to rapidly eliminate it now when you did not do so before.

Anyway, I think it unlikely that the ORP rise has any bearing on the STN.

[Atomikk]

Thank you for responding Randy. What about Vit C? Do you think it has the potency to trigger an STN event? I am really perplexed and can see a really bad outcome.

[Atomikk]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

I agree the ORP is unlikely a problem. Vitamin C acutlly depresses ORP a lot. If it has risen, maybe you have developed enough of a vitamin C eating bacteria to rapidly eliminate it now when you did not do so before.

Anyway, I think it unlikely that the ORP rise has any bearing on the STN.

Was thinking of this.. do you think this bacteria could have negatively impacted something within the SPS corals to initiate this STN event?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Might the Vitamin C dosing be driving nutrients too low?

[Atomikk]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

Might the Vitamin C dosing be driving nutrients too low?

I considered that as well. That is why I said I could have a very low nutrient environment. Do you think just adding a lot of food would provide a counterbalance against the 'overdose' of Vit C (and its eating bacteria)?

I did just clean out my skimmer and pump, and there is a lot of foam coming into the cup. SO that probably could be all of the vit c bacteria dying off?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Could be the bacteria, yes.

Adding more food or less vitamin C might be worth a try.

[Atomikk]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

Could be the bacteria, yes.

Adding more food or less vitamin C might be worth a try.

So here is what I am trying out... I am still running a skimmer to skim out this dying bacteria. I am also overfeeding the tank. Like 3-4 times a day. I know my fish love it, but thats not the point

If you have any other suggestions, let me know. I am open to anything at this point.

Thanks again Randy!!

[bertoni]

Was the tank healthy before you stopped using carbon? If so, I'd consider restarting it, to help remove any toxic compounds that might be released by the bacteria and other organisms.

[tmz]

If it were my tank I would: feed well but not overfeed: stop dosing the vitamin C or any other organic carbon source for now: skim heavily, run fresh gac and maybe some polypad and purigen as well. Monitoring PO4 and NO3 would also be on my list.

[saltygeek]

Genetics could confirm this but I believe when dosing carbon you always want to run your skimmer. Shutting off your skimmer could have caused the issue.

[Genetics]

Originally Posted by saltygeek

Genetics could confirm this but I believe when dosing carbon you always want to run your skimmer. Shutting off your skimmer could have caused the issue.

A skimmer not being on for a day or two might not be a concern as long as you halt dosing. I stopped dosing when my skimmer pump failed and was waiting for the replacement to come in. Went right back to the same dose without issue after a week. Only side effect was algae had increased significantly during that time.

[Atomikk]

OK, so had the skimmer fully cleaned. Was frothing immediately. So there is some bacteria die-off. Vit C dosing has been stopped since last Thursday. I am prepping a 25% water change for tomorrow night. Running a full bucket of carbon.

But I am still seeing some new recession, but now in my display. So I can confirm that it is water related. My pH did go up recently to 8.12 from a usual 7.98 (during its peak). Not sure why.

As a really stupid question, would DowFlake (calcium supplement) pellets have a negative reaction if I add them directly into an area of my sump? I figured not, as you would add it afterwards, but at this point I need to eliminate all possible causes of this issue.

[Atomikk]

Would anyone suggest dosing either Potassium Nitrate or Ammonium Nitrate to boost the NO3 levels?

I think this is also my problem.

[bertoni]

The Dow Flake might irritate corals if it landed on them, so I tend to dissolve it in water before dosing, but I don't think that's your problem.

If the skimmer is removing a lot of organic material, I'm not sure that a low nutrients level is a problem, and I'd be hesitant to dose nitrogen.

[Atomikk]

Maybe that the bacterial boom die-off. And maybe that is irritating the corals.. hmm.. gotta check the ammonia levels. Maybe they are off.

[livingcorals]

For what its worth any using vitamin C is taken a risk. I know to many that have had a crash result from it. Bacteria gone upside down.
Turning off skimmer and taken out carbon after a water change might not have been a good idea.
Agree with above Bacteria issue and stop for a bit with the Vitamin C.

[livingcorals]

Also I take you do not notice any murky looks nor odd smell right?

[Atomikk]

Nevermind, the pH is still high meaning the ammonia buildup from this die-off is minimal.

[Atomikk]

Originally Posted by livingcorals

Also I take you do not notice any murky looks nor odd smell right?

Nothing. My water looks transparent. I have about 3% algal growth. Even my bubble algae problem has stopped, as they too stopped growing. I seriously think that I am starving the corals. The polyps are out at night, like normal, but on some they are retracted during the day. And no, there aren't any pests. How do I know? I dipped the receeding colonies/frags in ReVive and only a million pods ended up dying.

[tmz]

Did the alkalinity spike during all of this?