........Question on Deep Sand Bed............

[Xgame2k]

...

[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by ziyaadb

Now this is great news to prevent the OLD tank syndrome.

You would think that after all the years of needless death, brought on by old tank syndrome, and countless sums of money spent, we would realize that there is something fundamentally flawed with the way we are doing things. Unfortunately, some people will never get it. OTS is preventable. All we need to do is show the animals we keep in a reef tank the same courtesy we would show to any pet we may keep. That is, keep the area they live in clean. Simple as that.

I just have a few more questions. I have always been told and read that one should never disturb a DSB and this will cause it to not work and the denitrification bacteria will die. is this all a load of hogwash?

Yes. It's all hogwash. This is one of the myths I spoke of earlier. As with all good myths, there is an element of truth. There is a group of anaerobes that will die if exposed to oxygen. They are called "obligate anaerobes". Just think about this for a moment and use a little common sense. What are the odds of a microbe, that dies if exposed to oxygen, making it to the bottom of your aquarium? It's kinda hard to get there without contacting oxygen allong the way. Thankfully, there are two other groups of anaerobes that can tolerate exposure to oxygen. They are called "aerotolerant and facultative anaerobes." The fact is that we don't need obligate anaerobes. We can clean our sand beds and it will still be a functional denitrifying filter. You can't sterilize a sand bed with a gravel vac.
A little link just to show that I'm not pulling this stuff out of thin air.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaerobic_organism

also what is your belief on the time it takes for the dsb to become active in that it is denitrifiying the water i have been told up to 4 months

It could take that long or longer under the right conditions. There are many variables that can effect how long this will take. It will be different for different systems.

[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by Xgame2k

I want my display tank to look similar to this. What grass's do you have in it? And thanks for pointing this thread in the right direction.

That is Caulerpa prolifera.

You're very welcome. I did have to go a little "evil scientist" in my last post, but I was asked a direct question. What was I to do?

[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by cloak

Maybe it's an optical illusion, but the sandbeds in those pictures don't look very deep to me. I'm guessing the bottom of the tank is at the base of the boards on the one picture?

Thank you for sharing, but that's not exactly what I was looking for.

Sorry it wasn't what you were looking for. Here's a pic that may help show the depth of at least on of the sand beds. The tank on bottom is sitting on a 2x4, so it is 3.5 inches off the ground. The base board is 6 inches tall and the front of the cabinet, in front of the sand bed, is 2.5 inches above the base board. The sand is about even with the top of the 2.5 inch board. That puts the sand bed right at 5+/- inches deep.

[jenglish]

typically I think 5-6 inches is the point of diminishing marginal return for most DSBs. Deeper does not add much to the system. The ultra deep beds IMO are driven by the idea of obligate anaerobes and are much more likely IMO to develop anoxic areas and have hydrogen sulfide. I typically have ran DSBs in the 5-6 inch range.

[elegance coral]

I agree. I don't even see a reason to keep them as deep as 5 inches if denitrification is the only purpose. The only reason I keep them that deep is for the sand dwelling anemones. As you pointed out earlier, denitrification takes place in much shallower sand beds.

[cloak]

Originally Posted by elegance coral

Sorry it wasn't what you were looking for. Here's a pic that may help show the depth of at least on of the sand beds. The tank on bottom is sitting on a 2x4, so it is 3.5 inches off the ground. The base board is 6 inches tall and the front of the cabinet, in front of the sand bed, is 2.5 inches above the base board. The sand is about even with the top of the 2.5 inch board. That puts the sand bed right at 5+/- inches deep.

You said that you've had this sandbed in several different systems over the years. I'm guessing you just lifted the tank up with all the sand in it and plumbed it into different tanks?

[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by cloak

You said that you've had this sandbed in several different systems over the years. I'm guessing you just lifted the tank up with all the sand in it and plumbed it into different tanks?

I have changed the display that's hooked to this sand while it was in the same container, but that's not always the way I've done it. The tank it's in now was my first marine tank. The sand was in it for....... I don't know, maybe the first 5 to 8 years. Then I went BB in the display and moved the sand to another 55 I was using as a sump/fuge. From there it's been moved to several different containers. Now it's back in the original tank, but it's being used as a sump, not a display.

What is the significance of how it was moved from one system to another?

[cloak]

Well to me, the sandbed is only as old as the last time you moved it. A DSB in a sump or refuge seems like an easy fix if something goes wrong. Almost as if the aquarist is afraid of it. No faith maybe, I don't know. Seems like a lot of people seem to know how a DSB functions, but nobody seems to practice what they preach. Scared to put it in the DT for whatever reason. Not everybody, don't get me wrong, but it just seems like the majority. Like I said though, I was looking for deep sand beds that were in display tanks that were five years or older.

Thanks.

[jean19]

it's difficult to find DSB in dt that's more than 2/3 years , i'm searching ....
because i'm starting one
but i'm patient , i've got time , i'm not planning any fish until a year !

[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by cloak

Well to me, the sandbed is only as old as the last time you moved it.

I'm not sure that I fallow your logic here. With this line of thinking, I guess you could say that it's a new sand bed every time I clean it with a gravel vac??????? I didn't kill the sand when it was moved. The sand remains fairly clean, so there's no need to kill it or rinse it when it's moved. It's the same sand, critters, and bacteria after the move.

A DSB in a sump or refuge seems like an easy fix if something goes wrong. Almost as if the aquarist is afraid of it. No faith maybe, I don't know. Seems like a lot of people seem to know how a DSB functions but nobody seems to practice what they preach. Scared to put it in the DT for whatever reason. Like I said though, I was looking for deep sand beds that were in display tanks that were five years or older.
Thanks.

I'm not afraid of my sand bed, and I "practice what I preach". The fact is that it's hard to keep sand clean when there are alot of rocks piled on top of it. For this reason, in some systems, I keep the sand in a different tank. I'm not sure how the name we give the tank relates to the subject. If we call it a display, fuge, sump, what difference does it make? I could do like the OP is doing, by placing LR in the sump and just a few in the display with the sand. That would be a similar system to the one I posted in the pic, only the contents of the tanks would be switched. In my system the sump has the sand and the display has the rocks. In the OP's system the sump would have the rocks and the display would have the sand. It's all the same body of water, so I don't see the relevance of where the sand is in the system.

[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by jean19

it's difficult to find DSB in dt that's more than 2/3 years , i'm searching ....
because i'm starting one
but i'm patient , i've got time , i'm not planning any fish until a year !

You are correct. You will have a hard time finding old DSB's. This is because we are told to throw it on the bottom of the tank, allow rotting organic matter and tons of critters to build up in it, then replace it when it starts killing our pets. The sand isn't the problem. It's the way we maintain it. If they are left undisturbed, they become compost piles, or septic tanks.

[jean19]

one of the probleme i've notice his the size of the sand and the water turn over , as for disturbing the sand , i think a good cleaning crew can manage it .
i'll see in a few years , i've reed about DSB all over the net and it seem thats a DSB should be the answer for all kind of trouble or the reason .but a lot of people don't bother to do it right , going to fast , expecting to much .
i'm planning a 120cm x 60cm 60cm , sand bed 12/15cm , softies and LPS and 4/6 small fishes , no skimmer . 20/30kg of live rocks that will not rest in the sand .

[jenglish]

Originally Posted by cloak

Well to me, the sandbed is only as old as the last time you moved it. A DSB in a sump or refuge seems like an easy fix if something goes wrong. Almost as if the aquarist is afraid of it. No faith maybe, I don't know. Seems like a lot of people seem to know how a DSB functions, but nobody seems to practice what they preach. Scared to put it in the DT for whatever reason. Not everybody, don't get me wrong, but it just seems like the majority. Like I said though, I was looking for deep sand beds that were in display tanks that were five years or older.

Thanks.

If simply moving a DSB was resetting it's age, everytime I deep clean it there would be a "new" DSB since all the sand gets stirred and oxygenated. I don't believe moving it from one tank to another upsets it anymore than a thorough cleaning.

[jenglish]

I will admit, I have seen an undisturbed DSB that has been running since 1995 though the last time I saw it personally was 07. That really gets into a whole different paradigm though.

[lougotzz]

Originally Posted by Xgame2k

Let me make this clear. I dont need any information on how these work. Just what is needed to be done.

Not to be rude, just trying to make myself clear and it seems like i am just repeating myself.

So when you have a problem, instead of knowing what is going on, and what to do, we can all hear you say:

"My tank is crashing, what do I do?!?!?!?''

Than when someone trys to explain, youll say:

"I just need to know what to do, Jeez."

Not trying to be a ****, but I started out almost a year ago like you, just wanting to know how to set it up, but than I started reading. When something happened I already knew what to do from all the reading I had done and didnt have to ask.

[Xgame2k]

....

[Xgame2k]

Originally Posted by lougotzz

So when you have a problem, instead of knowing what is going on, and what to do, we can all hear you say:

"My tank is crashing, what do I do?!?!?!?''

Than when someone trys to explain, youll say:

"I just need to know what to do, Jeez."

Not trying to be a ****, but I started out almost a year ago like you, just wanting to know how to set it up, but than I started reading. When something happened I already knew what to do from all the reading I had done and didnt have to ask.

Well, I already have my answers....the end.

[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by jean19

, as for disturbing the sand , i think a good cleaning crew can manage it .
.

This is another one of those myths. A clean up crew can not keep a sand bed clean. It will never happen. Food supplies govern populations. This is such a basic fact of nature that even those that support the common wisdom of how to care for sand beds are forced to admit it. There is no way to get around this fact. If you have an abundance of critters living in your sand, you can rest assured that you have an even larger abundance of rotting organic matter that they feed on. If you artificially elevate the population of detritivores in an attempt to clean a dirty sand bed all you will be doing is adding to the rotting organic matter of the sand. The rotting organic matter can only support a given number of detritivores. If you elevate the population above that number, they will simply die, and become rotting organic matter themselves.