Lots of growout tank questions

schoch79 · 11/05/2009, 05:28 PM

Hello all. I'm thinking to start a small frag growout tank so I could grow out small frags for my display, give frags away to friends/family and maybe sell a few here and there to local reefers.

Anyway, I have the very basic knowledge of where to start and have lots of questions. Chime in where you can.

1) More light is better and makes coral grow faster right? What "K" makes them grow fastest and if I use only that and no actinics will I have to put them under actinics for a while after grown out to color them up?

2) Just for an idea, how fast would say a 1" plug of zoanthids double in size.....let's compare a typical not very fancy one to a rare expensive one as far as growth rates.

3) As for the amount of light. I plan to use this tank for softies, lps and sps growout. Not sure on the exact size tank I will go with but lets say 10-30 gallons. Would 1-2-3-4 t-5 bulbs be enough light? I would like to get away with less if possible and still maintain good growth rate but if I need the max then so be it.

4) As far as flow. Do I just use the same amount of flow that they would thrive in, in a display tank? I assume yes.

5) Should I feed the frag tank? Maybe just phyto?

6) Anything else that comes to mind please share.

Thanks for reading this whole post and putting up with a newbie's ignorance.

whatcaneyedo · 11/06/2009, 12:54 PM

1. 10K bulbs generally offer the most PAR and are better for growth. However your flow and water chemistry are all very important as well. Actinics in my opinion are not necessary.
2. My zoa frags seem to double in size after about 2 months. First it takes them a couple weeks to attach.
3. I like to light my frag tank the same way I light my display, that way everything is under the same conditions so I dont have to worry about acclimating when I move coral back and forth.
4. Again, I match the conditions of my display tank with my frag tank because if it works in one its bound to work in the other.
5. I have a yellow coris wrasse in my frag tank for pest control so the tank gets fed for that reason. But I guess even if it wasnt for the wrasse I would still feed the tank.

6. Are you planning on plumbing your frag tank to you main tank or running it as a separate system?

egos4life · 11/06/2009, 01:32 PM

i'm for keeping it in its own system that way in the even your system does crash you do have something to start with...

whatcaneyedo · 11/06/2009, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by egos4life

i'm for keeping it in its own system that way in the even your system does crash you do have something to start with...

There are advantages and disadvantages to each.

Pro:
Larger overall system volume will help to make both tanks more stable (especially important if you opt for a very small frag tank).
Water parameters in both tanks will be identical (no need to acclimate when transporting coral back and forth).
Less equipment needed (one skimmer, one heater etc).

Con:
What affects one tank will affect the other. (like egos4life says)
Both tanks will need to be located relatively close to each other to be plumbed together.
Both systems will require individual maintenance (water changes, testing, dosing etc)

My display tank and frag tank are part of the same system however I am hopeful that if I ever have a complete system crash I'll be able to buy back frags of my coral that I have sold locally.

schoch79 · 11/06/2009, 04:26 PM

Thank you all for your responses. I'm just trying to get an idea of exactly how I want to do this. Of course like so many people in the hobby say I wanna start small to see how it goes and develop my knack for it but of course I'll probably go larger sooner than later. I'll probably start with softies to get a feel for how things go then go straight to sps. And to answer the question it would be independant of the display.

Marchingbandjs · 11/06/2009, 06:58 PM

I heard that 6.7k were good, if i were you i would get a 4 bulb or more.. and split between 6.7k and 10k for best growth...

schoch79 · 11/06/2009, 07:14 PM

Hmmmm....6.7k huh? Anyone else know anything about this? after all that is supposed to be natural sunlight K.

Marchingbandjs · 11/06/2009, 11:58 PM

As sunlight comes into contact with the earth's atmosphere and is reflected and refracted by water and dust particles the color temperature actually changes throughout the day ranging anywhere from 5,000 to 6,000 kelvin depending on the time of day and the amount of clouds in the sky

6.7k and 10k and 15k and 20k are all degrees kelvin... the closest you can get to 5000-6000 the better grown, the higher you get the better colors

schoch79 · 11/07/2009, 11:06 AM

AHHHH, thanks for that info. All this said though would growing out under say 6500k ruin the colors so to speak? I would assume I'd almost have to have a seperate growout and color up tanks because growing out under 6500 would wash out so much of the color. Would even the brightest colored frags out there grow well under 6500 or would they suffer at all? Also, would they end up getting the same colors back or would they end up with different pigments? Sorry for such long winded posts and so many questions I just want to make sure to do this right the first time and not waste a bunch of money in the process.

whatcaneyedo · 11/07/2009, 01:04 PM

Marchingbandjs already answered your question. Just include a 6.5K bulb with a few others that are in the bluer spectrum. Then you can have both high PAR and good color. Problem solved.

CLINTOS · 11/07/2009, 04:19 PM

If I were to redo my frag tanks I would go straight to a 40G breeder with 6-t5

1DeR9_3Hy · 11/07/2009, 05:10 PM

+1 for T5's on a frag tank.

Higher K metal halide bulbs usually offer lower par, but bluer light. Where as blue T5's offer as much if not more PAR than 10K or daylight color bulbs.

It wouldnt have to be an expensive fixture, do a retro fit kit. I can only afford to do a little at a time, and this works out well for me. I buy one ballast, two reflectors, two pair of end caps and two bulbs at a time. That lets me light a 4 ft by 10" area in one tank...which is a lot of area when you are just starting out. As more money flows into the reef fund, ill get another ballast, more reflectors...and light another 10" section of tank until the whole thing is lit.

CLINTOS · 11/07/2009, 10:13 PM

When I first started I started with 4 normal output on a 50G and it was my favorite tank since then over the last seven years I get a funny feeling that the 8 t5 h.o is just not at all better then 6 t5 h.o over a 90G when people say you can never have too much flow or light imo it's not true its a hard lesson but imo people can provide coral's with more then enough light/flow but what they are missing is nutrition and feeding imo and a over sized skimmer is by far not the answer imo there is other non traditional ways

schoch79 · 11/07/2009, 11:19 PM

Ider I like what you said about started slow and building up...I never thought to do it that way...but since I wont have a full tank full of coral why not start small. Thanks.

CLINTOS · 11/07/2009, 11:30 PM

start small but leave room for advancement. 6 t5 h.o leaves you with alot of option's in any tank all you have to do is switch height of coral's and kelvin

schoch79 · 11/07/2009, 11:43 PM

Right...I just meant with fewer bulbs as a retro.

CLINTOS · 11/08/2009, 01:24 PM

20G long with 4-t5 36" h.o 50/50 light's is surprisingly bright to start with you can get everything in there from lower light sps,zoo's,rics,lps etc

Marchingbandjs · 11/08/2009, 02:35 PM

i know quite a few people/companies that have 2 tanks... they have 6 bulb t-5... on is all 6.7k and 10k, and the other is all 20k... they dont hurt the color they just dont make it pop as much....

so once the corals base and have their growth spurt, they are colored up for a month then sold

1DeR9_3Hy · 11/08/2009, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schoch79

Ider I like what you said about started slow and building up...I never thought to do it that way...but since I wont have a full tank full of coral why not start small. Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by schoch79

Right...I just meant with fewer bulbs as a retro.

Glad you understood what i typed...it rarely happens

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marchingbandjs

i know quite a few people/companies that have 2 tanks... they have 6 bulb t-5... on is all 6.7k and 10k, and the other is all 20k... they dont hurt the color they just dont make it pop as much....

so once the corals base and have their growth spurt, they are colored up for a month then sold

With T5's however, you dont need to compromise since the "blue" bulbs have the same par as the "daylight" bulbs. Get good growth, and good colors with T5's. When i say blue bulbs, i am of course talking about a nice high end bulb like an ATI blue+ compared to a G'man mid day color bulb.

schoch79 · 11/08/2009, 06:21 PM

As for having the two tanks I was kinda thinking this may be the way to do it. 1DeR9, what source are you getting this par info about with the blue bulbs? I've always understood that the blue bulbs just aren't as much par. If I see official word on it I would be satisfied but I'm wary to believe this yet. Thanks guys for all the info.

1DeR9_3Hy · 11/08/2009, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schoch79

As for having the two tanks I was kinda thinking this may be the way to do it. 1DeR9, what source are you getting this par info about with the blue bulbs? I've always understood that the blue bulbs just aren't as much par. If I see official word on it I would be satisfied but I'm wary to believe this yet. Thanks guys for all the info.

Grim Reefers T5 Q&A thread

This is his site where he has tested, tested, and re-tested many bulbs and posted there results.

http://sites.google.com/site/tfivetesting/par

If you scroll down to the ATI bulbs, look at the Blue plus (311 measured PAR). Then scroll down to the Geismann Midday (324, looks like 6700K). That is very little difference between the blue bulbs and the white/yellow bulbs!

Spectrum only matters with metal halide bulbs, i dont now why...but that's how it works.

1DeR9_3Hy · 11/08/2009, 10:57 PM

Also forgot to mention that after months of asking, observing, and reading...there seems to be very little difference in systems that keep softies separate from stonys. For awhile that was a concern in the early days of this hobby, but with how well skimmers work now and media reactors...its not an issue. Husbandry is key...as always!

schoch79 · 11/08/2009, 10:57 PM

Hey thanks a lot for all the info! This is stuff I probably never would have considered without people like you. To be honest I understood go 10K all the way but apparently there are so many more options. Thanks again.

1DeR9_3Hy · 11/08/2009, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schoch79

Hey thanks a lot for all the info! This is stuff I probably never would have considered without people like you. To be honest I understood go 10K all the way but apparently there are so many more options. Thanks again.

Its a common problem, T5's just recently became as well understood as they are now...so many people are ignorant to the facts.

For me it was easy, i could light (and i mean LIGHT!!!) a 4 ft long by 2 ft wide tank with roughly 250 watts of T5. That simply would not work with a 250 watt MH. Im even considering going down to 5 39 watt bulbs, but staggeing them so they cover 4 ft total. That would only be 200'sh watts covering a 4 ft tank...

11/05/2009, 05:28 PM	#1
schoch79 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: portland,oregon Posts: 806	Lots of growout tank questions Hello all. I'm thinking to start a small frag growout tank so I could grow out small frags for my display, give frags away to friends/family and maybe sell a few here and there to local reefers. Anyway, I have the very basic knowledge of where to start and have lots of questions. Chime in where you can. 1) More light is better and makes coral grow faster right? What "K" makes them grow fastest and if I use only that and no actinics will I have to put them under actinics for a while after grown out to color them up? 2) Just for an idea, how fast would say a 1" plug of zoanthids double in size.....let's compare a typical not very fancy one to a rare expensive one as far as growth rates. 3) As for the amount of light. I plan to use this tank for softies, lps and sps growout. Not sure on the exact size tank I will go with but lets say 10-30 gallons. Would 1-2-3-4 t-5 bulbs be enough light? I would like to get away with less if possible and still maintain good growth rate but if I need the max then so be it. 4) As far as flow. Do I just use the same amount of flow that they would thrive in, in a display tank? I assume yes. 5) Should I feed the frag tank? Maybe just phyto? 6) Anything else that comes to mind please share. Thanks for reading this whole post and putting up with a newbie's ignorance.

11/06/2009, 12:54 PM	#2
whatcaneyedo Registered Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Prince George, BC, Canada Posts: 468	1. 10K bulbs generally offer the most PAR and are better for growth. However your flow and water chemistry are all very important as well. Actinics in my opinion are not necessary. 2. My zoa frags seem to double in size after about 2 months. First it takes them a couple weeks to attach. 3. I like to light my frag tank the same way I light my display, that way everything is under the same conditions so I dont have to worry about acclimating when I move coral back and forth. 4. Again, I match the conditions of my display tank with my frag tank because if it works in one its bound to work in the other. 5. I have a yellow coris wrasse in my frag tank for pest control so the tank gets fed for that reason. But I guess even if it wasnt for the wrasse I would still feed the tank. 6. Are you planning on plumbing your frag tank to you main tank or running it as a separate system? __________________ I have a lionfish tattoo on my back. Current Tank Info: Mixed predatory reef and soft coral nano. 300gal total.

11/07/2009, 01:04 PM	#10
whatcaneyedo Registered Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Prince George, BC, Canada Posts: 468	Marchingbandjs already answered your question. Just include a 6.5K bulb with a few others that are in the bluer spectrum. Then you can have both high PAR and good color. Problem solved. __________________ I have a lionfish tattoo on my back. Current Tank Info: Mixed predatory reef and soft coral nano. 300gal total.

11/07/2009, 04:19 PM	#11
CLINTOS Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: windsor,ontario Canada Posts: 482	If I were to redo my frag tanks I would go straight to a 40G breeder with 6-t5 __________________ 90G coral prop,8-t5 h.o,25G sump,20G coral prop,4-t5 h.o,25g coral prop,4-t5 h.o,phosban reactor with no sponges loaded with biomax ceramic cyclinders as pod pile on all tanks, phytoplankton station/dosing on all tanks

11/07/2009, 10:13 PM	#13
CLINTOS Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: windsor,ontario Canada Posts: 482	When I first started I started with 4 normal output on a 50G and it was my favorite tank since then over the last seven years I get a funny feeling that the 8 t5 h.o is just not at all better then 6 t5 h.o over a 90G when people say you can never have too much flow or light imo it's not true its a hard lesson but imo people can provide coral's with more then enough light/flow but what they are missing is nutrition and feeding imo and a over sized skimmer is by far not the answer imo there is other non traditional ways __________________ 90G coral prop,8-t5 h.o,25G sump,20G coral prop,4-t5 h.o,25g coral prop,4-t5 h.o,phosban reactor with no sponges loaded with biomax ceramic cyclinders as pod pile on all tanks, phytoplankton station/dosing on all tanks

11/06/2009, 01:32 PM	#3
egos4life Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: CEN CALI Posts: 83	i'm for keeping it in its own system that way in the even your system does crash you do have something to start with...

11/06/2009, 04:26 PM	#5
schoch79 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: portland,oregon Posts: 806	Thank you all for your responses. I'm just trying to get an idea of exactly how I want to do this. Of course like so many people in the hobby say I wanna start small to see how it goes and develop my knack for it but of course I'll probably go larger sooner than later. I'll probably start with softies to get a feel for how things go then go straight to sps. And to answer the question it would be independant of the display.

11/06/2009, 06:58 PM	#6
Marchingbandjs Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 133	I heard that 6.7k were good, if i were you i would get a 4 bulb or more.. and split between 6.7k and 10k for best growth...

11/06/2009, 07:14 PM	#7
schoch79 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: portland,oregon Posts: 806	Hmmmm....6.7k huh? Anyone else know anything about this? after all that is supposed to be natural sunlight K.

11/06/2009, 11:58 PM	#8
Marchingbandjs Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 133	As sunlight comes into contact with the earth's atmosphere and is reflected and refracted by water and dust particles the color temperature actually changes throughout the day ranging anywhere from 5,000 to 6,000 kelvin depending on the time of day and the amount of clouds in the sky 6.7k and 10k and 15k and 20k are all degrees kelvin... the closest you can get to 5000-6000 the better grown, the higher you get the better colors

11/07/2009, 11:06 AM	#9
schoch79 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: portland,oregon Posts: 806	AHHHH, thanks for that info. All this said though would growing out under say 6500k ruin the colors so to speak? I would assume I'd almost have to have a seperate growout and color up tanks because growing out under 6500 would wash out so much of the color. Would even the brightest colored frags out there grow well under 6500 or would they suffer at all? Also, would they end up getting the same colors back or would they end up with different pigments? Sorry for such long winded posts and so many questions I just want to make sure to do this right the first time and not waste a bunch of money in the process.

11/07/2009, 05:10 PM	#12
1DeR9_3Hy Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,711	+1 for T5's on a frag tank. Higher K metal halide bulbs usually offer lower par, but bluer light. Where as blue T5's offer as much if not more PAR than 10K or daylight color bulbs. It wouldnt have to be an expensive fixture, do a retro fit kit. I can only afford to do a little at a time, and this works out well for me. I buy one ballast, two reflectors, two pair of end caps and two bulbs at a time. That lets me light a 4 ft by 10" area in one tank...which is a lot of area when you are just starting out. As more money flows into the reef fund, ill get another ballast, more reflectors...and light another 10" section of tank until the whole thing is lit.

11/07/2009, 11:19 PM	#14
schoch79 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: portland,oregon Posts: 806	Ider I like what you said about started slow and building up...I never thought to do it that way...but since I wont have a full tank full of coral why not start small. Thanks.

11/07/2009, 11:30 PM	#15
CLINTOS Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: windsor,ontario Canada Posts: 482	start small but leave room for advancement. 6 t5 h.o leaves you with alot of option's in any tank all you have to do is switch height of coral's and kelvin __________________ 90G coral prop,8-t5 h.o,25G sump,20G coral prop,4-t5 h.o,25g coral prop,4-t5 h.o,phosban reactor with no sponges loaded with biomax ceramic cyclinders as pod pile on all tanks, phytoplankton station/dosing on all tanks

11/07/2009, 11:43 PM	#16
schoch79 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: portland,oregon Posts: 806	Right...I just meant with fewer bulbs as a retro.

11/08/2009, 01:24 PM	#17
CLINTOS Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: windsor,ontario Canada Posts: 482	20G long with 4-t5 36" h.o 50/50 light's is surprisingly bright to start with you can get everything in there from lower light sps,zoo's,rics,lps etc __________________ 90G coral prop,8-t5 h.o,25G sump,20G coral prop,4-t5 h.o,25g coral prop,4-t5 h.o,phosban reactor with no sponges loaded with biomax ceramic cyclinders as pod pile on all tanks, phytoplankton station/dosing on all tanks

11/08/2009, 02:35 PM	#18
Marchingbandjs Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 133	i know quite a few people/companies that have 2 tanks... they have 6 bulb t-5... on is all 6.7k and 10k, and the other is all 20k... they dont hurt the color they just dont make it pop as much.... so once the corals base and have their growth spurt, they are colored up for a month then sold

11/08/2009, 06:21 PM	#20
schoch79 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: portland,oregon Posts: 806	As for having the two tanks I was kinda thinking this may be the way to do it. 1DeR9, what source are you getting this par info about with the blue bulbs? I've always understood that the blue bulbs just aren't as much par. If I see official word on it I would be satisfied but I'm wary to believe this yet. Thanks guys for all the info.

11/08/2009, 10:57 PM	#22
1DeR9_3Hy Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,711	Also forgot to mention that after months of asking, observing, and reading...there seems to be very little difference in systems that keep softies separate from stonys. For awhile that was a concern in the early days of this hobby, but with how well skimmers work now and media reactors...its not an issue. Husbandry is key...as always!