A little help with sources of Nitrate Addition....YES ADDITION.

[AquamanE]

Originally Posted by DeathWish302

Well in my search, I have found an interesting site with bulk Amino Acids including Aspartic Acid. Anyone think there would be a problem with DIY Amino Acid compounds that would cost far less and you KNOW what your getting?

http://nutrabio.com/Products/sub.ami...FQ_xDAodZ3tapQ

Below states some ingredients from some AA ingredient listings.
http://grumpyreefer.net/2009/04/14/a...eef-aquariums/

Very interesting concept. I wish they had Zeo's AA on there. That stuff is expensive.

That site with bulk AA sounds great but, How would you make the decision as to how to make your own? Of all the noted AA's do we know which is really needed vs others??

[redfishsc]

If we knew what the amino acid content was in, say, freshly pureed krill or fish, we'd have a good starting point. These are often starting ingredients in many fish and coral prepared foods.

But since the proteins in fish and krill are where much of the amino acid content is bound up, I'm not sure if this is feasible.

[DeathWish302]

Originally Posted by redfishsc

Taatu warned me in a thread here a while back that certain amino acids, in certain concentrations, were selectively toxic to certain corals.

I'll research toxicity further. The same is true with 'Trace Elements', so there has to be some published works with research data. It surely won't cover everything in my tank but definitely give a threshold trendline.

Originally Posted by redfishsc

For that reason I am extremely hesitant to consider a DIY amino acid complex.

I'm not!!! KZ and BA have mastered a 'blend'. BA took 3 years to obtain an acceptable NeoZeo method, so some of this time was with mastering an AA blend.

Originally Posted by redfishsc

I am generally quite cautious about what I put in my tank, but if you do try them, please do share the results with us!

My works are full NON-Proprietary! I've realized what it takes to make a living from this great hobby and have more joy from sharing my triumphs and tribulations than making a few pennies.
The only thing against me in this coral color quest is time... I don't have a dedicated group of researchers and tank setups to monitor slight variations in growth/color for various quantities of different AA. BA and KZ had to start there too.

Originally Posted by AquamanE

That site with bulk AA sounds great but, How would you make the decision as to how to make your own? Of all the noted AA's do we know which is really needed vs others??

The decision will first be based on scientific works or conglomerations of many works (such as Randy's article about Aspartic Acid). I'm sure there are also works stating the current free form amino acid content of NSW in some part of a reef. This could be a baseline of type and qty. At this time, I have only read Randy's article that truly outlines a specific AA that cannot be ingested. I'm truly looking for AA that are not readily available in a varied diet of freshly prepared seafood. Aspartic Acid sounds like one of these compounds.

There is another methodology that crosses my mind, but it will require some upfront capital. One could send BA & Zeovit samples to a lab for analysis of content. I'm sure there would be a correlation between precision and $$$.

These 'marine scientist' really are implementing this little experiment in the same manner as I, except they may do their own research studies of varied specimens. They are investing huge amounts of capital in hopes of a return that usually is NOT ever coming from my wallet. Most of the Science/Technology Professionals are all the same in mindset. You ponder a topic, hypothesize after extensive research & try to validate/disprove your initial hypothesis. What this correlates to is every one of those Science/Technology Professionals are always thinking they would have done it differently or better. So am I out to prove a point that anyone can blend an AA supplement... You bet!

BTW(drum roll please).... POST 1,000 for me!

[redfishsc]

Originally Posted by DeathWish302

My works are full NON-Proprietary! I've realized what it takes to make a living from this great hobby and have more joy from sharing my triumphs and tribulations than making a few pennies.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I understand why companies like Brightwell and KZ charge so much, b/c they also have a tremendous amount of research in their products (not to mention liability). But for the average joe like me, I'm not interested in anything but simple, inexpensive solutions.

Recently I've had great success dosing vitamin C for my soft coral and LPS health, and I've seen a pretty dramatic response, so I'd have to say this was one of those simple and cheap solutions.

[DeathWish302]

Well, the bug bit early and I've started dosing NO3. I have found in 1 week with 3mL of the Iron solution added that the blue tort 'appears' more blue and the blue-green turf algae and minor hair algae is MUCH greener. No noticeable outbreaks other than the cyano from my overboard plankton feeding event which receded in 1-2 days. I broke my rule already about waiting a few weeks after dosing Iron to review affects.

The Nitric Acid I have found may have been polluted with oil, metal, phosphate from electrocoat, etc., etc. etc....(my buddy in the Materails Lab basically telling me he doesn't trust anything for a delicate matter as a reef tank in the lab) So instead of a 'free' tank crashing NO3 cocktail, I splurged on the Spectracide. I started several nights ago slow with only bumping the NO3 up 0.5ppm. I added another 0.5ppm tonight two days after the first addition and measured before and after. Only marginal test color change, so it still measures under 1ppm. I will continue to add 0.5ppm every 2-3 days and see what happens over the next few weeks. I can't really say if there is any affect yet, as it is too soon to draw any conclusions.

I may be ordering some AA from the site I listed earlier. I'll try Aspartic Acid and some of the AA that are listed as slow synthesis or not able to be synthesized that are considered essential. If anyone wants to try some of these, PM and we can arrange. From what I've read so far, a 100g bottle will make gallons worth of 500nM solutions. If concentrations near reefs are really in such low concentrations, I'm concerned how to accurately measure the AA powders for the solutions. I have access to a scale, but it has only an accuracy of +/-0.001g NOT +/-0.0001g as some high precision analytical units.

[redfishsc]

Definitely keep us posted and we'll see how things go!

If the acros start turning brown, the nitrate may be causing an overabundance of zooxanthellae.


Also, keep a very close eye on those pest algaes. Since you are adding nitrate and iron, you're making explosive growth somewhat more possible. Do all you can to keep phosphate super low.

[DeathWish302]

Originally Posted by redfishsc

Also, keep a very close eye on those pest algaes. Since you are adding nitrate and iron, you're making explosive growth somewhat more possible. Do all you can to keep phosphate super low.

I have a small cluster or hair algae on a marble zoa growout tile in the coast-to-coast overflow, a quater size patch of valonia on the rocks down low & some blue-green turf in the sump. All have darkened up with the additions of Iron and NO3. I am a little concerned with an acceptable dose of NO3, as the turf screen has doubled growth in two days and appears to require cleanings every 2 days. I could go 2-4 days a week ago w/o the two latest additions. I'll keep an eye on the nasty algeas for growth. I'm not a algae hater, as a little let's me know the tank is ok. When the algaes start dying off and the zoas keep closed, I know the cyano monster is about to rear his ugly face.

I'll update in about a week of the progress.....

[redfishsc]

I would personally hold the dosing amount back to whatever amount your tank will use in one photoperiod (ie, day).

Perhaps add 0.2ppm before the lights come on, let it circulate for an hour and test the water to see if it's registering on the test kit. Take note of the measurement.

Check after lights out and see if it's dropped below detectable levels. If so, repeat but add 0.4ppm nitrate, test morning and evening.

I personally would think that adding any nitrate beyond what would be reduced to 0 in a single photoperiod would not be beneficial and may simply provide even more fuel for algae to grow.

[DeathWish302]

I've been dosing KNO3 over a week now... I've added ~0.5ppm NO3 every other day. I cannot quantitatively measure the color shift, but my canary is my sunset monti. This coral used to be very pale orange and is starting to increase intensity to about the color of a pumpkin. Before it had less color than an orange highlighter on white paper. The ORA Aurora Borealis blue tips are definitely darkening along with my Blue tort. The ORA Pearlberry is still lacking pop along with the previous red colored sps. At first glance the Iron & NO3 additions combined with heavy feedings of sps-targeted foods is working.

I think I will push the limits after the Turkey Day weekend and do an experiment on saturation levels as redfishsc has mentioned. This would allow a constant NO3 supply that would stabilize the input of this nitrogen source.

[redfishsc]

That sounds good!

If you are running a refugium or dosing any form of carbon (I forgot what you said has reduced your nitrates), it should be removing it pretty quickly.

Just keep levels to 0.5ppm, no more than 1, as it wouldn't likely benefit anything but algae.


If you decide you need more nutrition than this is providing, consider tossing in some aminos in the group. I use, or "dose" aminos when I feed my corals, I just use the aminos as the liquid in the solution of cyclops, crushed silversides, crushed flake food, and a sprinkling of Vitamin C powder. Corals seem to respond well to that, especially a red goniopora I have.