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Old 03/21/2012, 11:27 AM   #326
sirreal63
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Mine has, more than once over the years. If anyone claims to not have ever done anything they regret, they haven't been in the hobby very long or they are deluded. Crap happens, it is the way of things. The sad part is someone had to hang around waiting to say "I told You so" without any knowledge of what happened or why.


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Old 03/21/2012, 11:55 AM   #327
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Thanks to everyone in this thread who is being supportive.

FWIW, the tank wasn't uncycled.


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Old 03/21/2012, 12:03 PM   #328
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oh noo! I feel your pain buddy. It will come back ten fold


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Old 03/21/2012, 12:03 PM   #329
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I'm not going to get into a big fight here that's not the point of RC, but feel free to bash me all you want.

I wasn't lurking around waiting for an I told you so, and I'm not some cyber-reefer. I've been a member of this community for a long time, I've posted my tanks, my success, my failures, and my experiences as have MANY of the other posters in this thread. We as a community came to together and tried to reason with Galleon via the sum of our experiences and were dismissed, and rudely I might ad, mocked by him and his friends, give the brush off as simple trolls.

I didn't have to read the blog post (which I have now) to figure out what happened. I had a tank setup in a very similar fashion, and while the trigger point may have been different the RESULT was the same.

I'm not saying I never made a mistake trust me I've made plenty. Nobody here is saying they never made mistakes. The difference is when I make a post on a community and that community comes together and offers me suggestions on how I can improve. I listen. I show respect and kindness to those who were willing to take the time to try to help. Some peoples posts I look at shake my head and move on, others contemplate, and some I take to heart. Either way I thank them all same.

This was not a "thriving" reef. It was a 2 month old non cycled tank, filled with acropora and new pieces constantly from the wild, without proper means of biological filtration and never given enough time to settle in. He then goes and adds a MASSIVE carbon source to the tank which in turns causes a bacteria bloom, which is then consumed by algae turning the water green. Am I wrong?

He then goes and does a 100% water change which while fixing the problem in the shorty term is simply going to reset everything again for the future.

Simply adding more rock from the start, letter the tank cycle and taking things slow as every body suggested and he could have avoided this whole situation. He would have had a much more stable system which would have made such drastic measures unnecessary.

Allmost, Jack. I understand Chris is your friend but HONESTLY would you setup a tank in a similar manner and expect different results?


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Old 03/21/2012, 12:19 PM   #330
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He then goes and adds a MASSIVE carbon source to the tank which in turns causes a bacteria bloom, which is then consumed by algae turning the water green. Am I wrong?
Yes.

I spiked the pH, dumb mistake number 1. Dumb mistake number 2: bring the pH down the fastest way possible, using available vinegar. This happened on February 28th. Once the pH was stable, I did a 100% water change.

The bacteria bloom has little to actually do with the stability of my system and more to do with the fact that it was a sudden addition of a labile organic carbon source to a system where such labile carbon availability for heterotrophic bacteria was not the norm. Ask Thales what happened when his tank had a pH spike and he used vinegar to bring it down. His "ego" caused him to write a whole article about it!!!

The tank has been up since November, FWIW. That has been mentioned before but largely ignored in favor of slandering it as an uncycled unstable system. No one has actually offered any evidence that my filtration is inadequate.

Despite the water change, bacteria still bloomed, and caused what I suspect was a DO crash, cue RTN, Another 100% and the tank was fine for several days. No more organic carbon sources were added, not even food, no more recession, cleaned skimmer, glass, carbon etc. Things were looking better. THEN, a SEVERAL days later (on March 10th), an almost instant bloom that looked like a phyto bloom occurred.

You accused me in PM of, despite being a marine scientist, having little experience. Scroll up a few posts and you will see that is clearly not the case. Did you ever wonder where all those friends you accused me of having jump in actually came from?

Quote:
He then goes and does a 100% water change which while fixing the problem in the shorty term is simply going to reset everything again for the future.
Then let that stand as your prediction and I won't say another peep to you. I will however, keep this thread updated. Cheers.



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Old 03/21/2012, 12:23 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by MammothReefer View Post
This is EXACTLY what many of us warned you about. Maybe next time use the community for open minded dialogue instead of rudely dismissing our efforts to be helpful as petty ignorant rantings from inferior peons.
This was far from constructive, but maybe you think it was. I don't know, and most of us who have been here for a while are cranky, I am usually one of the crankiest, but this was not helpful or constructive, it was very much the "I told You so". Perhaps it was not your intent, but that is exactly how it reads.

I don't know Chris, never even saw his username until this thread that I can recall. As far as how he set up the tank, everyone has different ways of doing things, none are wrong and none are right but they are different. I probably wouldn't have used a 20 gallon tank, but I don't do nano's. I appreciate what he is doing, just because it is outside of the norm, and if he were doing this as his first tank I would have cautioned against it. Most of us do things on our own tanks that we would never advise anyone else to do. That doesn't mean it will fail, but there is no reason to think it will if the person is experienced.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and tell myself you were trying to help, but very few people would help the way you have. I am sure the first person to drop vodka in their tank was laughed at and cautioned against it, now the majority of us do it or have done it. The point is, it is his tank, his way of doing it and every tank has it's issues, either from the reefer or the livestock.

Let him do it his way and either be supportive or stay out of it. He isn't a noob. :-)


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Old 03/21/2012, 12:27 PM   #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galleon View Post
If I'm so high and mighty and dismissing peons why would I BLOG about a stupid mistake I made? On a major reef blog, Huh?

The tank was thriving, you've got the videos to prove it, I made a dumb mistake from panicking, I shamelessly told the world about it, and there you have it. Nothing more.

I was a professional aquarist at a public aquarium before I decided to go to grad school. I've been keeping SPS since 1999. I've bred jellyfish, cuttlefish, seahorses, etc. professionally. I'm one of three people in the world that could keep man o war alive in captivity. I maintained collection permits for rescue corals in the Florida Keys. I'm one of the few people in the world that has grown atlantic Acroporids in captivity. I know what the hell I'm doing, and even people that know what they are doing make mistakes.
I'm not going to get dragged into a flame war with you Chris. We all make mistakes, and we've all done great things. However the sum of the experience of a community is greater then any individuals experience. There is a huge difference between a large public aquarium, and a small home aquarium. We may not have chosen marine biology as our primary occupation, but that doesn't make us any less capable, or less intelligent.

The members of this community are OBSESSED with their tanks. They spend countless hours researching every little advancement and change in the hobby, understanding every little detail, and have painstakingly experiment time and time in their own little private laboratories, on their own dollar.

I'm not trying to dismiss your accomplishments, (Well accept maybe the seahorse thing as mom was able to do that to with no salt water experience at all ) All I'm saying is maybe some of the people who are privately funding there own tanks, and have had up and running systems constantly for years and years on end. May just be on to something.

Take it as you may.


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Old 03/21/2012, 12:29 PM   #333
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Here is a photo of the green water bloom that occurred.




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Old 03/21/2012, 12:29 PM   #334
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double post.



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Old 03/21/2012, 12:37 PM   #335
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I dont know ...

live rock is used as surface area for bacteria to colonize .... how can we say if its enough or not ? how do we tell how pronous the rock is ? the simple 1 lbs per gallon is like the old Watt per gallon rule ... outdated and doesnt stand no more ! I have about 45 lbs of LR in my 200 G system !

cycle ... if live rock with dead patches were placed in, and no ammonia is tested after a couple of days, that mean the tank has cycled .. not sure what franklypre meant, or why he is putting corals in a none cycled tank !

I do not know Galleon personally ... but he is experienced, he knows what he is doing. and in fact I really like this set up, as I have argued about amount of LR needed in the past ALOT .. and this is the first prime example supporting my case [less live rock would mean better flow through it, so we can take advantage of ever mm of it.....

if it was me, I would add a bucket as sump with nothing but water, cause I know I suck at dosing down to the ml ... lol [just to make it easier to dose different things]

at the end, galleon is one of those ppl who I am here to learn from ! I have never had the pleasure of working profesionally in the field ! he has ! now I dont mean this part about you mammoth, you are also experienced and know what you are doing [and have a great and successfull tank ] ... but to see SOME OTHER ppl, who are new to hobby [less than 5 years] and still havent been able to get the result they wanted come here and say his set up wont work just doesnt sit right iwth me ... u know what I mean ? but sadly that's part of many new reefers journey ... ppl in my area who I have set up tanks for 3 years ago try to correct me on my local forums lol I obv stopped posting there ...

I hope you know what I mean lets be more supportive of another follow Experienced hobbyist, proving some myths wrong.


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Old 03/21/2012, 12:41 PM   #336
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Man do I remeber that color, first time I ever used vinegar to clean liverock and didn't let it dry, didn't even wash it off. Only thing that lived was a small piece of carnation. I wasn't trying to bash, just saying that in this hobby stuff happens. Are you planning on adding to this tank or are you happy with the amount of coral in it. Any plans for LPS, softies? You may have mentioned this earlier but I don't get into the unpleasant discussions.


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Old 03/21/2012, 12:56 PM   #337
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This was not a "thriving" reef. It was a 2 month old non cycled tank, filled with acropora and new pieces constantly from the wild,
OK, it's time for some timeline fact checking for the sake of everyone here. This tank was set up in early November 2011 with a large piece of live rock (that just happened to have a Porites on it). It was cycled. I added some more live rock (VERY little, two small branch pieces), got a tiny ammonia blip.

Now, I added wild colonies on FEBRUARY 3rd. I have not added a single wild piece or colony period since then. I added some frags Thales sent me on February 8th. Every single Acropora piece in the system that survived shipping was healthy, establishing itself and growing on February 28th when the pH spike occurred.

Here is the video from FEBRUARY 20th. Everything looked just as good 8 days later immediately prior to when the accident occurred.



Now, please, I encourage ANYONE here to point out which one of these wild colonies that had been in my ****hole of a system for a month did NOT look like it was thriving? Show me one that even looks stressed.


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Old 03/21/2012, 01:17 PM   #338
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Old 03/21/2012, 01:32 PM   #339
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The length of time someone has been registered on a reef forum says absolutely nothing about knowledge about or experience with keeping reef aquaria.

Some of us here have been reefing loooong before rc (or any other internet aquarium forum) existed.

Anyone who makes any kind of claim about the viability of a particular tank's methodology before at least a few years go by is obviously a noob talking out of their a**hat.

My first nano reef (30gal) had 4" of dolomite over an air driven undergravel filter (pre 1980). I'm sure some (probably many) here would have assured disaster was guaranteed. The red tree sponge and ricordea I propagated and sold back to the local lfs for the few years I had the tank would certainly disagree.

Chris's methodolgy/setup is NOT new to the world of aquaria, and has been a good workable method for many.

Failures of others (and mini 'failures' like Chris's) due to user error are just that. User error- *not* a methodology/concept error.

Don't listen to the noobs, Chris, it's not worth the agita to even respond. Heck, I'm sure all the naysayers here don't even know who Emmens was!


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Old 03/21/2012, 02:15 PM   #340
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First I agree time on a forum doesn't count. The only experience that is relevant to keeping long term successful reef tanks is keeping long term successful reef tanks.

But, Yes I'm an asshat, and a noob now. This is how we go about having civil discussions and productive conversations. Throw out insults, personal attacks and use perceived "experience" as to infer that all others opinions and experience are mute.

Clearly we don't agree on fundamental things like the word "thriving". To me, a thriving reef has to be PROVEN a long term success, not a month not a couple months. If you're tank is crashing after a couple months. It's not thriving. End of story. I don't have to wait a few years to tell you that something doesn't work when it's crashing in the first couple months and I've done the same thing, and had the EXACT same results (all be it different trigger points).

1 Rock, some sand, small skimmer. Regular water changes high watt halide, sps = My tank of death. To much, to fast. 2004. Bacteria bloom, algae bloom.. all dead.



I could sit here and bash everybody back, point out flaws, inaccuracies, and things that have been said that have no bearing on the subject at hand. But what would be the point of that? What would that solve? Also there are just way to many responses for me to keep up with at this point in time, so I will just say this.

You want to listen to us, you don't want to listen to us. There are all these claims being thrown around how everybody knows more then everybody else and we should all just sit back and listen to somebody because they are a perceived expert in the field, but to me the proof is in the pudding. I'm not claiming to be an expert myself by any means I've probably crashed more tanks then most of you over the years. With that said however when I post online, ask for help and people are willing to give me there time I appreciate it and I respect them for it. I don't care who you are, what degrees you have, if you were the first person to do something. If it's not directly related to what you are trying to do now it doesn't matter. Personally I'd take the advice and suggestions from a guy like SunnyX, Copps, NVTE, Greg Carrol, or many of the people whom have tanks that I admire and respect over that of an "expert", "long timer". What these guys have achieved are only theorized by the likes of the experts in the field.

Having knowledge does not equate to the direct ability to apply said knowledge.

Either way in the end, I'm here for one only one reason. My Enjoyment. I enjoy the hobby, I enjoy the community, I enjoy the conversation, and I enjoy the wealth of knowledge and experience that others are willing to share with me here. I mean no ill will towards any member, and I wish you and your tank long term success.

-B


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Old 03/21/2012, 02:25 PM   #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MammothReefer View Post
1 Rock, some sand, small skimmer. Regular water changes high watt halide, sps = My tank of death. To much, to fast. 2004. Bacteria bloom, algae bloom.. all dead.
What caused your bacteria bloom?

What caused mine?


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Old 03/21/2012, 02:47 PM   #342
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To hell with this, this is stupid and pointless. Take any stable tank, put too much labile organic carbon in it all at once, watch what happens.

End of discussion.


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Old 03/21/2012, 03:01 PM   #343
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What caused your bacteria bloom?

What caused mine?
Both of our bacteria blooms were caused by adding to much of a food source (carbon in your case) for the bacteria present in your system in unstable ill equipped tanks to handle the increased bacteria, (the bacteria was then consumed by the algae hence the green water)

You added to much vinegar, I did to large of water change with fresh NSW.

However from my understand (and I say this with confidence but not with 100% certainty). The cause of demises in both our tanks what not the bacteria bloom it's self, but the oxygen being rapidly depleted.

Your quick action saved yours, and I hope your UV filter will keep things in check. (I've used ozone but have no experience with uv filter so it may do the trick I can't speak one way or the other on it)

At the time my only thought was "to do another water change" with the only water I had on hand more NSW... It didn't help, my tank established enough, and at the time I didn't know that had I simply increase the o2 in the water it would have had less of an impact animals until it subsided. (which I have experienced going forward on tanks that have had bac blooms but no ill effects to the inhabitants)

What did your ORP test at when you said all your parameters were on par?


On another note; What constitutes as a cycled tank? What I notice here if yes you say the tank was cycled 2 small piece of non-porous tonga branch, from Nov? Do you not feel that when you add corals, or pieces that have a mass that is significantly equivalent to that of the sum of your rock that you're tank will not re-cycle? While I agree the presence ammonia is what people test for in terms of cycle completion. I don't believe we can assume that solely the lack ammonia is a sign of stability and the completion of "cycling" for an SPS capable tank. This can be compounded by large water changes (100%) where you are removing anything beneficial that is present in your water leaving you with very little surface area for things to re-cultivate from.

Quote:
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To hell with this, this is stupid and pointless. Take any stable tank, put too much labile organic carbon in it all at once, watch what happens.

End of discussion.
Well.. that about sums it up. I'm stupid discussion, debate, and conversation with me is pointless. I'm glad you can share your tank with us. I wish you the best of success. I look forward to future updates but will not participate in the discussion.
Take care, and I do hope hope there are no hard feeling on a personal level. If we ever meet at a conference, drinks are on me!
-B


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Old 03/21/2012, 03:58 PM   #344
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This is a much better form of discourse.

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Both of our bacteria blooms were caused by adding to much of a food source (carbon in your case) for the bacteria present in your system in unstable ill equipped tanks to handle the increased bacteria,
Not ill-equipped to handle the increased bacteria, but the increased carbon. Ask Randy what happens when he adds too much vinegar, or Rich ross when he had to drop his pH with a gallon of vinegar. They also get blooms.

The mistake I made was panic. I had a pH spike. I had two options: add an acid to titrate that also happened to be labile organic carbon, or go get CO2 to bring the pH back in line. The panic said "bring down pH now", so in went just enough vinegar to titrate the pH down to an acceptable level. The 100% water change was not enough to remove all the carbon.

Quote:
(the bacteria was then consumed by the algae hence the green water)
More likely the ammonia produced by any remaining dying bacteria and the decomposers feeding on them. Marine phytoplankton like to use NH3 as it requires no redox reactions for energy. Then there's the 10 day lag, with no measurable nitrogen change in between, hence the "mystery".

Quote:
However from my understand (and I say this with confidence but not with 100% certainty). The cause of demises in both our tanks what not the bacteria bloom it's self, but the oxygen being rapidly depleted.
Agreed 100%.

Quote:
Your quick action saved yours, and I hope your UV filter will keep things in check. (I've used ozone but have no experience with uv filter so it may do the trick I can't speak one way or the other on it)
This was the first system I've ever run without it. Not anymore. As I said in my blog post, they are magical and I wouldn't take it off.

Quote:
What did your ORP test at when you said all your parameters were on par?
No idea. ORP is mostly black magic, in my opinion, unless you are directly controlling ozone. My guess is it wasn't great simply because of the hetertrophic bacteria consuming O2 and making the water less oxidizing. The green water likely did the same at night.

Quote:
What I notice here if yes you say the tank was cycled 2 small piece of non-porous tonga branch, from Nov?
And that large, very porous Porites rock (only the front is a veneer of encrusted Porites, it's a chunk of live rock for all intents and purposes). I also I'm not sure I've seen the porosity of branch rock quantified relative to other forms. Think about scale here. People are going bats*** because it only has three pieces of rock in it, now look at the full tank shot and imagine it scaled up to something like a 150. People also forget that LIVE coral skeletons are incredibly porous themselves and have everything from bacteria to endolithic algae living in them naturally.

Quote:
Do you not feel that when you add corals, or pieces that have a mass that is significantly equivalent to that of the sum of your rock that you're tank will not re-cycle?
An Acropora is a micrometers thick layer of tissue over a relatively huge, porous skeleton that is a biofilter in itself. So, in short, No. In fact, I would have had no qualms about not using any live rock at all in this system. I have run successfully Acropora growing systems with ZERO live rock or biofilter to speak of. I only used it to mount frags on above the bottom and I like the look of branch. Die off from the rock is what caused the ammonia spike to begin with.

I added labile carbon that I normally would NEVER have otherwise added, so this was NOT an inevitable I told you so problem with my husbandry that everyone "warned" me about, That is what I have been trying to get across.

We can quibble all you want about the semantics of timing, but to me, the video speaks for itself, there was no random crash going to happen if I maintained things the way they were going. That's the other thing I have been trying to get across. Very little, rare food additions occurred, the skimmer was ripping (again think about scale), and I used tons of GAC relative to tank volume..

Quote:
While I agree the presence ammonia is what people test for in terms of cycle completion. I don't believe we can assume that solely the lack ammonia is a sign of stability and the completion of "cycling" for an SPS capable tank. This can be compounded by large water changes (100%) where you are removing anything beneficial that is present in your water leaving you with very little surface area for things to re-cultivate from.
This is all arm wavy and speculative, in my opinion.

Quote:
Well.. that about sums it up. I'm stupid discussion, debate, and conversation with me is pointless. I'm glad you can share your tank with us. I wish you the best of success. I look forward to future updates but will not participate in the discussion.
That is not at all what I said and your contorting it is icky. The way the discourse was going was stupid and pointless. Your last post started to change that.

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Take care, and I do hope hope there are no hard feeling on a personal level. If we ever meet at a conference, drinks are on me!
-B
No hard feelings, I love a cold beer and coral talk.


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Old 03/21/2012, 07:28 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by MammothReefer View Post
Simply adding more rock from the start, letter the tank cycle and taking things slow as every body suggested and he could have avoided this whole situation. He would have had a much more stable system which would have made such drastic measures unnecessary.
I don't think it matters how much rock is in the tank, you drop in a ton of edible carbon and weird stuff is going to happen. This was not a failure of methodology, it was a mistake. As we all know, regardless of how robust a system in, the single biggest point of failure is the person taking care of the system.

I have a lot of rock in my home display, and I did essentially the exact same thing Galleon did, a dumb kalk overdose...twice actually, but a different way each time. Hmm, maybe three times. A different dumb mistake every time.

One time I attacked it almost the same way Galleon did, vinegar to drop the pH. But instead of one 100% water change, I did several over the frist few days after the overdose which how I avoided any kind of bloom. Tank is full of live rock. Lousy with it.

Here is an article on one overdose time:
http://www.reefsmagazine.com/showthr...rint&type=html

Here is the blog about the second time where I used CO2 instead of vinegar:
http://www.reefs.com/blog/2011/05/19...sy-to-be-dumb/

No bloom at all with the CO2. If Galleon had CO2 laying around I am sure he would have used it. As it is, I think its way cool that his tank went green pea soup. Never seen that before.

Now that the problem has been resolved, I would pull the UV, but that's me.


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Old 03/21/2012, 09:34 PM   #346
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hey Galleon, i just read 90% of this thread and i laughed a lot and went 'hmm' a lot as well.. cool starting point for the nano
i'm wondering- and maybe i missed it somewhere-why you would be worried about a ph spike of 8.4. I'm looking at that graph a ways up the thread and 8.4 looks like as high as it got. did i miss something? imo 8.4 is not a worrisome upper ph limit.
why did you feel it necessary to drop the ph?
sorry, if i missed something and this is a useless question!
feel free to kick my a@@ for being dumb!


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Current Tank Info: 53x32.5x26 190g display 60g of sumps. 3 tank/100 gal frag system. 3 x GHL Mitras. 4 x t5. 6 x tunze 6095 tunze controlled. Closed loop using two speedwave 2640s on Vertex Moceans. RLSS DB10i . Deltec 601s ca reactor. currently empty due to a leak :(
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Old 03/21/2012, 11:05 PM   #347
Craig Borowski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reefmutt View Post
did i miss something? imo 8.4 is not a worrisome upper ph limit.
Not sure if it was mentioned in this thread, but on one of the blogs he mentioned it spiking to over 9.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thales View Post
As it is, I think its way cool that his tank went green pea soup. Never seen that before.
Neither have I and I agree on the way cooledness. Very impressive that everything seems to have weathered the storm!


This seems somehow relevant:




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Old 03/22/2012, 12:34 AM   #348
Todd100
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I read a page or two before and wanted to check progress on the megawatt "nano".
What caused the ph spike?
When is the ph level considered dangerous?


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Old 03/22/2012, 08:04 AM   #349
galleon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MammothReefer View Post
Your quick action saved yours,
I actually disagree, my directly applicable experience saved mine.


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Old 03/22/2012, 09:47 AM   #350
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Again this thread proves why I hate RC and don't post very often. I personally feel that no one has a right to judge you for your tank. I really love this tank and how cool it is-Keep it up! and look forward to updates!


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