Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > The Reef Chemistry Forum
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools
Old 12/05/2017, 08:46 PM   #1
Kinetic
Registered Member
 
Kinetic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 7,579
Carbon before chaeto reactor strips Iron and others?

I have a carbon reactor (BRS mini) right before my Chaeto Reactor. I'm pushing about 300-400gph through it. I used to have some lower grade marineland activated carbon, and my chaeto was stable and growing a little bit. A few months ago, I changed it out for BRS ROX. I don't know if it's related, but my chaeto pretty much melted away. I do have more phosphates now than I did when it was growing.

There's plenty of phosphates, and some algae in my display tank, but my chaeto is pretty much melted away.

I'm wondering if my carbon is the reason why my chaeto died. Does it just not get any nutrients?

I've started dosing iron, but I wonder if that will help, especially with that carbon reactor.


__________________
Portfolio: http://artchang.com

Current Tank Info: Red Sea Reefer 170
Kinetic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/05/2017, 08:58 PM   #2
five.five-six
Registered Member
 
five.five-six's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Corona
Posts: 5,489
Blog Entries: 1
Careful with dosing iron and don't dose anything that you arn't testing for.


__________________
Originally posted by yellowslayer13:

"I hate that hole"

Current Tank Info: SCMAS Member 135 peninsula euroreef RS180 Apex 250W X2 20k radiums mixed SPS
five.five-six is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12/05/2017, 08:59 PM   #3
Kinetic
Registered Member
 
Kinetic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 7,579
Quote:
Originally Posted by five.five-six View Post
Careful with dosing iron and don't dose anything that you arn't testing for.
Not the question.


__________________
Portfolio: http://artchang.com

Current Tank Info: Red Sea Reefer 170
Kinetic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/05/2017, 09:45 PM   #4
bertoni
RC Mod
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA
Posts: 85,847
The carbon might be capable of starving the Chaetomorpha. I would have thought otherwise, though. Carbon might have a fairly limited lifetime in our tanks, although there are multiple options on this topic. If you want to try removing the reactor or reducing the amount of carbon in it, that might might help the Chaetomorpha. I'm more skeptical about the iron helping, although it might.


__________________
Jonathan Bertoni
bertoni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/05/2017, 10:07 PM   #5
Kinetic
Registered Member
 
Kinetic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 7,579
Quote:
Originally Posted by bertoni View Post
The carbon might be capable of starving the Chaetomorpha. I would have thought otherwise, though. Carbon might have a fairly limited lifetime in our tanks, although there are multiple options on this topic. If you want to try removing the reactor or reducing the amount of carbon in it, that might might help the Chaetomorpha. I'm more skeptical about the iron helping, although it might.
Thanks. yeah I just thought maybe it would be a clear nono for me to run carbon right before chaeto. Literally no water gets to the chaeto without passing through the BRS ROX. It seemed like a coincidence that the chaeto started to melt some time after switching to the ROX.


__________________
Portfolio: http://artchang.com

Current Tank Info: Red Sea Reefer 170
Kinetic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/05/2017, 10:51 PM   #6
DesertReefT4r
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Mesa Az
Posts: 185
Does the carbon reactor feed the chaeto reator? Or do you just have the carbon reactor in a sump ahead of a fuge?


DesertReefT4r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/05/2017, 11:27 PM   #7
Kinetic
Registered Member
 
Kinetic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 7,579
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertReefT4r View Post
Does the carbon reactor feed the chaeto reator? Or do you just have the carbon reactor in a sump ahead of a fuge?
Reef octopus VarioS-2 pump in the sump -> BRS Mini reactor with BRS ROX -> Aquamaxx XL chaeto reactor -> chiller -> Sump

All inline being fed by the varios pump.


__________________
Portfolio: http://artchang.com

Current Tank Info: Red Sea Reefer 170
Kinetic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2017, 04:17 AM   #8
Big E
Registered Member
 
Big E's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: South Euclid, OH
Posts: 4,102
What is your N03 level? Low levels is usually where chaeto struggles.

Chaeto's uptake of N03 to P04 is 100-1, so it's easy to create a limited nitrate situation.

I find it hard to believe carbon is sucking up all the organics the chaeto uses. It could be creating clearer water than previously and maybe light inhibition is an issue, but that's probably a reach.


__________________
80g Rimless Acropora System

reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2197142&page=31

Ed
Big E is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2017, 05:57 AM   #9
Dan_P
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,151
I don't recall ever reading about this particular situation nor does it seem that GAC would strip out inorganic nutrients that algae require for growth. The switch to a different brand of GAC seems like a coincidence.

Running 300-400 gallons per hour through a small amount of GAC might not be allowing enough time for impurities to be in contact with GAC and to be completely removed. For your set up, it seems you cannot be stripping your water to an ultra high purity. Still looks like a coincidence.

Other aquarists have reported their Chaeto dying (melting away) mysteriously. Without more information, we cannot eliminate the possibility that your Chaeto was dying before the GAC brand switch.

As for dosing iron, that can help algae (good and bad) growth in some situations but you are pretty much on your own on how much to dose and how often. An article in Advanced Aquarist summarizes the information on this subject.


Dan_P is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2017, 10:59 AM   #10
five.five-six
Registered Member
 
five.five-six's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Corona
Posts: 5,489
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinetic View Post
Not the question.
But actually it is, without testing everything is a guess.


__________________
Originally posted by yellowslayer13:

"I hate that hole"

Current Tank Info: SCMAS Member 135 peninsula euroreef RS180 Apex 250W X2 20k radiums mixed SPS
five.five-six is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2017, 11:23 AM   #11
sde1500
Registered Member
 
sde1500's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Glocester, RI
Posts: 2,658
I would say it was nothing more than coincidence as well. Unless maybe your levels were already borderline too low to support growth to start with, and the carbon stripped the remaining out. What are your N+P measuring?

Quote:
Originally Posted by five.five-six View Post
But actually it is, without testing everything is a guess.
I find it interesting you assume he isn't testing. And if he is or isn't actually wasn't the question he asked, no matter how hard you try to make it. When the order of events was Cheato growing, rox added, cheato dying, iron dosed to encourage growth, focusing on the iron instead of his question doesn't accomplish much.


__________________
My build thread:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2548422

Current Tank Info: 65 gallon mixed reef, Eshopps sump and HOB overflow, RO-110int skimmer, Reefbreeder 32" photons V1.
sde1500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2017, 11:27 AM   #12
five.five-six
Registered Member
 
five.five-six's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Corona
Posts: 5,489
Blog Entries: 1
Are you testing for iron? If so, what is the level?


__________________
Originally posted by yellowslayer13:

"I hate that hole"

Current Tank Info: SCMAS Member 135 peninsula euroreef RS180 Apex 250W X2 20k radiums mixed SPS
five.five-six is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2017, 11:57 AM   #13
Kinetic
Registered Member
 
Kinetic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 7,579
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big E View Post
What is your N03 level? Low levels is usually where chaeto struggles.

Chaeto's uptake of N03 to P04 is 100-1, so it's easy to create a limited nitrate situation.

I find it hard to believe carbon is sucking up all the organics the chaeto uses. It could be creating clearer water than previously and maybe light inhibition is an issue, but that's probably a reach.
My nitrates are undetectable on my tests normally. After reading more, this could be the biggest reason why chaeto isn't growing. It's too bad the film algae I have is still growing well and chaeto isn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_P View Post
I don't recall ever reading about this particular situation nor does it seem that GAC would strip out inorganic nutrients that algae require for growth. The switch to a different brand of GAC seems like a coincidence.

Running 300-400 gallons per hour through a small amount of GAC might not be allowing enough time for impurities to be in contact with GAC and to be completely removed. For your set up, it seems you cannot be stripping your water to an ultra high purity. Still looks like a coincidence.

Other aquarists have reported their Chaeto dying (melting away) mysteriously. Without more information, we cannot eliminate the possibility that your Chaeto was dying before the GAC brand switch.

As for dosing iron, that can help algae (good and bad) growth in some situations but you are pretty much on your own on how much to dose and how often. An article in Advanced Aquarist summarizes the information on this subject.
Yup, I read the Advanced Aquarist article, which is why I started thinking about iron. I agree, probably a huge coincidence. Thanks for the input!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sde1500 View Post
I would say it was nothing more than coincidence as well. Unless maybe your levels were already borderline too low to support growth to start with, and the carbon stripped the remaining out. What are your N+P measuring?
Nitrates are undetectable usually (or very very low)
Phosphates are pretty low, about 10 - 20ppb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sde1500 View Post
I find it interesting you assume he isn't testing. And if he is or isn't actually wasn't the question he asked, no matter how hard you try to make it. When the order of events was Cheato growing, rox added, cheato dying, iron dosed to encourage growth, focusing on the iron instead of his question doesn't accomplish much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by five.five-six View Post
Are you testing for iron? If so, what is the level?
I always chalk it up to, someone hears or knows one thing and tries hard to steer a conversation there to trap it into that hypothesis. It usually derails a conversation.

Just so we can get back on topic. YES I test for Iron, like every other thing I dose or don't dose. I have probably every single test you can think of, and multiple copies and brands of each. I've also brought in my water to LFS to test on their tests. i have not, however, used something like an ICP test.

If you know about iron, or have read the advanced aquarist article, or know how iron levels work in a tank, it's almost impossible to test for iron. Iron is used up pretty quickly in a tank. When I tested it, it was undetectable. When I dosed and tested, I saw a blip. But then it was gone again.

Yes, you can dose iron into a bucket of RO/DI and test for it, and it will show. But the organisms use up the iron in a tank pretty quickly.

ICP tests almost always show 0 iron. If you look at threads about it, even on clay-boa with Randy Holmes, you'll see that it's not a good way to tell how deficient in iron your tank is. This is only if I'm completely mistaken, and my iron is being sucked into a black hole everytime I dose.


__________________
Portfolio: http://artchang.com

Current Tank Info: Red Sea Reefer 170
Kinetic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2017, 12:34 PM   #14
sde1500
Registered Member
 
sde1500's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Glocester, RI
Posts: 2,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinetic View Post
My nitrates are undetectable on my tests normally. After reading more, this could be the biggest reason why chaeto isn't growing. It's too bad the film algae I have is still growing well and chaeto isn't.
What film algae is this? Not what grows on the glass I hope?


__________________
My build thread:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2548422

Current Tank Info: 65 gallon mixed reef, Eshopps sump and HOB overflow, RO-110int skimmer, Reefbreeder 32" photons V1.
sde1500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2017, 12:36 PM   #15
Kinetic
Registered Member
 
Kinetic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 7,579
Quote:
Originally Posted by sde1500 View Post
What film algae is this? Not what grows on the glass I hope?
It's just the usual green film algae on rocks and glass that I've always had. Are there other kinds of film algae?

I don't have any other nuisance algae at the moment (knock on wood).


__________________
Portfolio: http://artchang.com

Current Tank Info: Red Sea Reefer 170
Kinetic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2017, 01:15 PM   #16
sde1500
Registered Member
 
sde1500's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Glocester, RI
Posts: 2,658
I think that film you have to scrape off is unavoidable no matter what is running on a tank.


__________________
My build thread:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2548422

Current Tank Info: 65 gallon mixed reef, Eshopps sump and HOB overflow, RO-110int skimmer, Reefbreeder 32" photons V1.
sde1500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2017, 01:30 PM   #17
bertoni
RC Mod
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA
Posts: 85,847
Some people manage to reduce growth on tank walls to very low rates, but I agree that most people will need to clean the glass from time to time. A few herbivorous snails can help, but most recommendations or guidelines lead to overstocking, which causes the snails to starve to death over some number of months.


__________________
Jonathan Bertoni
bertoni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2017, 01:59 PM   #18
EnderG60
Plumbing Engineer
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Atlanta GA
Posts: 3,189
Why not just put swap the piping and put the cheato reactor first and see what happens?

Personally I would put the natural filtration before any mechanical/chemical filtration since you dont know what all the carbon is pulling out the cheato may need.

Also, if youre not testing for iron dont dose it. Thats just asking for trouble and you have no idea if that is even an issue.


EnderG60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2017, 02:27 PM   #19
Kinetic
Registered Member
 
Kinetic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 7,579
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderG60 View Post
Why not just put swap the piping and put the cheato reactor first and see what happens?

Personally I would put the natural filtration before any mechanical/chemical filtration since you dont know what all the carbon is pulling out the cheato may need.

Also, if youre not testing for iron dont dose it. Thats just asking for trouble and you have no idea if that is even an issue.
Have you ever tried testing for iron? Check a few posts back about iron testing.


__________________
Portfolio: http://artchang.com

Current Tank Info: Red Sea Reefer 170
Kinetic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2017, 02:29 PM   #20
Kinetic
Registered Member
 
Kinetic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 7,579
Quote:
Originally Posted by sde1500 View Post
I think that film you have to scrape off is unavoidable no matter what is running on a tank.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bertoni View Post
Some people manage to reduce growth on tank walls to very low rates, but I agree that most people will need to clean the glass from time to time. A few herbivorous snails can help, but most recommendations or guidelines lead to overstocking, which causes the snails to starve to death over some number of months.
Yeah I might be trying to grow chaeto when the film algae wouldn't be affected by it anyway. Good point. Thanks all.

Also, I guess I shouldn't be surprised when there's the "TEST EVERYTHING BEFORE DOSING" police.


__________________
Portfolio: http://artchang.com

Current Tank Info: Red Sea Reefer 170
Kinetic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2017, 03:39 PM   #21
bertoni
RC Mod
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA
Posts: 85,847
Iron seems to be consumed very rapidly in our systems, and is present in very tiny amounts in ocean water:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/8/chemistry

I wouldn't worry about overdosing iron very much, and there's no practical way for hobbyists to test for natural levels.


__________________
Jonathan Bertoni
bertoni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2017, 03:45 PM   #22
sde1500
Registered Member
 
sde1500's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Glocester, RI
Posts: 2,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinetic View Post
Have you ever tried testing for iron? Check a few posts back about iron testing.


Not sure if you covered this, but do you test for iron?


__________________
My build thread:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2548422

Current Tank Info: 65 gallon mixed reef, Eshopps sump and HOB overflow, RO-110int skimmer, Reefbreeder 32" photons V1.
sde1500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2017, 04:31 PM   #23
Kinetic
Registered Member
 
Kinetic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 7,579
Quote:
Originally Posted by sde1500 View Post
Not sure if you covered this, but do you test for iron?
LOL!


__________________
Portfolio: http://artchang.com

Current Tank Info: Red Sea Reefer 170
Kinetic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2017, 08:02 PM   #24
DesertReefT4r
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Mesa Az
Posts: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinetic View Post
Reef octopus VarioS-2 pump in the sump -> BRS Mini reactor with BRS ROX -> Aquamaxx XL chaeto reactor -> chiller -> Sump

All inline being fed by the varios pump.
Then yes in your case that type of carbon is starving the chaeto of nutrients due to it being before the chaeto. Its possible the carbon is cleaning the water just enough to effect the chaeto growth. Just switch the 2 around or dont run them inline. If you had a fuge section in a sump and a cabon reactor before the fuge then I would say no way it would strip the water clean enough to effect chaeto. However the setup u have is a little different since all water going to the chaeto is fully filtered by the carbon. As the carbon gets older it should not effect the chaeto as much. Interesting setup I have never seenor heard of a chaeto reactor. I also personally would not have a fuge feeding into a chiller.



Last edited by DesertReefT4r; 12/06/2017 at 08:10 PM.
DesertReefT4r is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:12 AM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2017 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright 1999-2014