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Old 12/05/2017, 09:55 AM   #1
plancton
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Price of DIY LED lamp vs Brand

Is it cheaper to go the DIY route on a LED lamp? Let's say I wan to make my own HYDRA 26 HD, how much would it cost vs the real one?


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Old 12/05/2017, 10:12 AM   #2
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It is absolutely going to cost MORE money to build your own if you account for your time spent and likely even if you don't..

Just the time required to duplicate the software functionality will likely be more than the cost of a light..


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Old 12/05/2017, 10:35 AM   #3
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It also depends on what you mean when you say you want to make something "like" a commercial unit. People have very very wide interpretations of what constitutes something being "like" something else.

If you are willing to throw away your time, and you're good with DIY, and you invest time in learning, and you have reasonable requirements, and you're willing to potentially compromise on things like fit and finish, etc then you definitely can DIY an LED fixture cheaper than a high end brand name commercial fixture. You can likely get similar output and functionality but it likely won't be a direct equivalent.

That said, I do not feel that cost is a good justification for DIY. You will be way in the hole if you account for your time spent, or the tools and knowledge required. And you will definitely be in the hole if you attribute any value to customer support. When your Hydra dies, you have someone to be mad at, someone to hold accountable. When your DIY rig dies, it's all up to you.

You should DIY because you want something you can't buy off the shelf. You should DIY because you have odd requirements or you have ideas for improvements that aren't in commercial units. You should DIY because you want to easily experiment with different colors of LED or different optics or you want some other flexibility without having to void a warranty. You should DIY because it's fun and it's a way to have a sense of pride in your system. You should not DIY to save money.


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Old 12/05/2017, 12:43 PM   #4
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Still new to reef but not light diy. A hydro 26 equivalent that is resonably easy to assemble would look like:

Rapid led heatsink 40+s/h
2-3 48watt pucs from blue acro 110-165
Drivers 30-40
Bluefish mini controller 100 ( cheaper options available but if you want to duplicate functionality this is only simple game in town)
Power supply 20-40
So 290-375 for first light. Prolly can save 100 per light after the first since you don't need to duplicate the bluefish mini.

Could maybe save on the LEDs with a more manually put together array but not a ton.


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Old 12/05/2017, 01:26 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kampo View Post
Still new to reef but not light diy. A hydro 26 equivalent that is resonably easy to assemble would look like:

Rapid led heatsink 40+s/h
2-3 48watt pucs from blue acro 110-165
Drivers 30-40
Bluefish mini controller 100 ( cheaper options available but if you want to duplicate functionality this is only simple game in town)
Power supply 20-40
So 290-375 for first light. Prolly can save 100 per light after the first since you don't need to duplicate the bluefish mini.

Could maybe save on the LEDs with a more manually put together array but not a ton.
You forgot enclosures, heatsinks, wiring, time,etc....


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Old 12/05/2017, 02:11 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by mcgyvr View Post
You forgot enclosures, wiring, time,etc....
There.. well throw out enclosure for free air as well..

Trick is to, sadly, be more expensive than the cheapest but actually be cheaper than "the best"..

Which all involves some compromises..and good shopping..

Like Bluefish mini vs cheap PWM pots..
$100 vs $3..


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Old 12/05/2017, 02:57 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgyvr View Post
You forgot enclosures, heatsinks, wiring, time,etc....
Rapid led heatsink is a heatsink and enclosure. Everything but the PSU will mount inside. Other ways if doing things but wanted to show the most comparable but easy to build idea I could come up with.


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Old 12/05/2017, 03:45 PM   #8
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W/ 50 @3W Royal Blue emitters on star bases for $10 straight from China..
Also (preferred)
@ 10pcs PHILIPS LUMILEDS LUXEON Rebel ES 3W Royal Blue 450nm~455nm High Power LED
for $12....

you have to work hard to screw up..

To do quality DOES push the limits but your reward is one built "your way"..
to be honest the main "wrench in the works" is heat sinks and controllers.. Rest is a pittance for the most part..

Then again one can blow the budget wide open...





Last edited by oreo57; 12/05/2017 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 12/05/2017, 08:19 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by mcgyvr View Post
You forgot enclosures, heatsinks, wiring, time,etc....
Time is a tricky one to value though. I mean if I don't build something it's not like I would make that money by getting a job for those hours I'm not at my other job. So rather put a dollar amount on time I would say "would I rather be doing something else with that time?"

To the OP just start a price list in Excel on parts. Then you can scrimp or spend more based on your desires in a light. I will say building 1 is definitely more expensive than 1/2 of building 2. Very often you can use drivers or psus across multiple fixtures


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Old 12/05/2017, 10:10 PM   #10
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Don't forget about IOS/Android apps, bluetooth, wifi and all of that.


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Old 12/05/2017, 11:41 PM   #11
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OK to more directly answer the op's question and using what I consider premium parts and some improvements and some not so improvements over a Hydra 26.
This is going to be a bit shortened w/ note..
Drivers/Driver board/power supply(24V, 200W)/diodes/ and lenses...... $168
Improvements: No green but substitute cyan.
Deeper UV A but costly (adds $20/2 diodes)
Placement and density is my choice
Subtractions:Only 5 channels so "bridged" UV/violets and blue/cyan

Leaving $182 for the rest..

So the main parts left out is the heat sink and control..

Heat sink.. 6"x20" Black anodized w/ hanging kit.. $70
TC-421 (modified) for 5 ch 5v pwm WiFi /app $32
(Substitute windows tethered tc0420 $19)


$270............. w/ some compromises..like 8 bit dimming and crazy Chinese apps..

No time is not considered (I never bill myself for a hobby)
Nor thermal adhesives, wire, fitting, plugs though did throw one in the power supply for $4...

so lets say.. I saved $50..

Adding a 92mm fan and a voltage regulator (24-12V)
another $13..

So saved $37..
No, don't consider shipping .. kind of like a soldering gun.. just a must have ..

Savings point....
No expensive 365nM UV chips .. switch to 410 or so
Savings:$12.
Probably would go cheap on the regular blue
Savings: $10
Probably stick w/ TC-420 wired
Savings: $13

Total $72 less than a Hydra w/ "savings"..

Cost me that in man hours figuring all this out.. I'm worth it.. (just kidding)

numbers are as real as I can get..

diodes alone were $84.20.. Could be lowered to around $28 w/ little loss in quality..
so "Hydra-like" for $250

That was a lot of work.....



Last edited by oreo57; 12/05/2017 at 11:48 PM.
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Old 12/06/2017, 01:01 AM   #12
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55 leds...yikes that is a lot of soldering loool. giving me the shakes thinking about it.


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Old 12/06/2017, 03:24 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgyvr View Post
It is absolutely going to cost MORE money to build your own if you account for your time spent and likely even if you don't..

Just the time required to duplicate the software functionality will likely be more than the cost of a light..
Quote:
Originally Posted by der_wille_zur_macht View Post
It also depends on what you mean when you say you want to make something "like" a commercial unit. People have very very wide interpretations of what constitutes something being "like" something else.

If you are willing to throw away your time, and you're good with DIY, and you invest time in learning, and you have reasonable requirements, and you're willing to potentially compromise on things like fit and finish, etc then you definitely can DIY an LED fixture cheaper than a high end brand name commercial fixture. You can likely get similar output and functionality but it likely won't be a direct equivalent.

That said, I do not feel that cost is a good justification for DIY. You will be way in the hole if you account for your time spent, or the tools and knowledge required. And you will definitely be in the hole if you attribute any value to customer support. When your Hydra dies, you have someone to be mad at, someone to hold accountable. When your DIY rig dies, it's all up to you.

You should DIY because you want something you can't buy off the shelf. You should DIY because you have odd requirements or you have ideas for improvements that aren't in commercial units. You should DIY because you want to easily experiment with different colors of LED or different optics or you want some other flexibility without having to void a warranty. You should DIY because it's fun and it's a way to have a sense of pride in your system. You should not DIY to save money.
I think these two posts sum it up pretty well. I haven't made a light yet, but I've done any number of stands. I can put together a 2x4 stand that will hold any tank that will fit on it in a couple days, and for less than $100. I can also start with rough cut Hardwood lumber and have a furniture quality stand that will outlast any of us, but it will cost at least a couple hundred just for the materials and then factor in the 30-50 hours of my labor (When I'm on the clock I start at $55/hr) and it quickly becomes way cheaper to buy one ready made. I made my own anyway because there are very few in town who would do it as well as I can.

I would build a light the very same way (well - not out of hardwood lumber). I would build it to the best of my ability without worrying about final cost.


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Old 12/06/2017, 04:04 PM   #14
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When your Hydra dies, you have someone to be mad at, someone to hold accountable.
LOL.. One of THE very reasons I DIY.. Call it "taking personal responsibility"...

Blaming bean counters ans sub-standard engineering/parts.. just not my thing..

Knowing 10% of anything (at the least) is prone to failure and stealing of my hard earned money.. I'd rather like to know how to fix it myself...

IF one needs to fix something it is RARELY cheaper having someone else do it..
If a diode fails.. I replace it.. $3.. screw the time. I'd waste more packing/shipping and fighting w/ warranty repair fine print..

Quote:
I would build it to the best of my ability without worrying about final cost.
Well everyone has some time/talent/cost constraints..which does play a big part in this..
do you bill yourself for hours of tank maintenance?

Like I said $/hr should never be a factor in this decision at least for me..
Probably have lights worth 10 of thousands w/ that kind of thinking.. as many go through revisions at a whim...

Freedom!.. .. is not cheap.



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Old 12/06/2017, 04:13 PM   #15
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If you can fix it right the first time, then I totally agree. If you cause failures with inexperience or have to re-fix a fix, then you will be behind the game with time and money. If any of this is "fun" then who cares... go for it and enjoy yourself.

DIY is not hard I do a lot of my own stuff, but I have made mistakes too and not every project or fix comes out ahead - I just replaced a bad Turbo on my BMW 750li and the new one was bad as well... the time to do it twice was probably not worth it for this one repair, but in the long list of car fixes that I have done, I am well ahead. I was pretty hard on myself when I butchered my first repair job, but the lessons are excellent about humility, patience and attention to detail that can last a lifetime.

I am pretty handy and I don't know if I would dabble into this as a first project... and I have fixed all kinds of vintage and tube audio (McIntosh mostly), have a o-scope and am handy with a soldering gun.

FYI - based on a bunch of conversations with Dana Riddle, I would absolutely spend money on those 365nm diodes and use a handful of them for very good coverage. Also, far red up to 850nm to help with energy absorption.


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Old 12/06/2017, 04:15 PM   #16
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Nope - I went with 2 x AI Sol blues for my DT and a pair of kessil A360w's for the frag tank. There are some things that are just not worth the cost to DIY (at least for me - I can rewire a house, upgrade the service panel, etc), but have no desire to DIY lights. Especially now, with so many good choices available I just don't see the need.


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Old 12/07/2017, 12:14 PM   #17
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This subject seems to come up from time to time.

Maybe 5 years ago or more, it would be feasible to DIY an LED fixture. But not anymore, costwise that is. And the DIY will look ugly and not have the refined look of a Radion or Hydra. If the light is not hidden inside a canopy, it will be the second most visible item after the tank itself. So you want it to look nice or aesthetically pleasing.

If you are patient, you can find an excellent condition used Hydra 26HD for between $250-$300.

Having said that, I still encourage DIY, more for the learning and discovery process. There are not enough makers in this hobby. (perhaps people in this hobby have a lot of cash and spend it like it will go out of style).


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Old 12/07/2017, 10:54 PM   #18
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This is really a personal preference and opinion. The way I see it DIY is always cheaper and won't be more expensive anytime soon. This is a hobby so adding in the labor cost is a bit premature. I guess you can if you take your hourly rate but it really isn't the right thing to do unless you do that for other day to day tasks you perform on the tank like water changes, power head cleaning, etc. Yes, time is money....but again it is a hobby.

Cheaper is also subjective. Off the shelf name brand products like say Kessil will start at or around what, 240 US dollars? Radion are starting around 650'ish? Lets talk Mitras starting around 600 or so? If anyone has the time, patience, willing to learn, and DIY technical skills you will always, and I mean always, be able to produce quality lighting for cheaper. The main key is patience and shopping around.

People are making some serious multi chip solutions in small package forms that don't require large heat sinks. Pair them up with a nice driver, power supply, and you can have 4 high output lights, with uniform coverage, 4 channel dimming capability, for a fraction of the cost. Maybe it won't have a built in controller but is that necessary if you already have a controller? Maybe it won't have a clean form factor. Is that necessary if it is under a hood? I get all the wiz bang gadgets they offer but most people on this sub forum already have a controller so dimming is already a done deal...

So for me it is a matter of if what I can build offers similar lumens / watts, spectrum coverage, intensity, control, and finally price. Not saying I'd need 4 but lets say I buy 4 of the Radions noted above at 650 a pop. That is 2,600 bucks. No thank you, I'll pass. I can buy 4 single multi chips, drivers, power supply, wire, and heat sinks for 400. Then if I need more fine tune it by adding a bar or another pair and still be under 600.

Yeah no, DIY is cheaper.


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Old 12/07/2017, 11:02 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oreo57 View Post
W/ 50 @3W Royal Blue emitters on star bases for $10 straight from China..
Also (preferred)
@ 10pcs PHILIPS LUMILEDS LUXEON Rebel ES 3W Royal Blue 450nm~455nm High Power LED
for $12....

you have to work hard to screw up..

To do quality DOES push the limits but your reward is one built "your way"..
to be honest the main "wrench in the works" is heat sinks and controllers.. Rest is a pittance for the most part..

Then again one can blow the budget wide open...
You raise a couple key and important points. Quality does increase the cost but it is still manageable.


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Old 12/07/2017, 11:03 PM   #20
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It also depends on what you mean when you say you want to make something "like" a commercial unit. People have very very wide interpretations of what constitutes something being "like" something else.

If you are willing to throw away your time, and you're good with DIY, and you invest time in learning, and you have reasonable requirements, and you're willing to potentially compromise on things like fit and finish, etc then you definitely can DIY an LED fixture cheaper than a high end brand name commercial fixture. You can likely get similar output and functionality but it likely won't be a direct equivalent.

That said, I do not feel that cost is a good justification for DIY. You will be way in the hole if you account for your time spent, or the tools and knowledge required. And you will definitely be in the hole if you attribute any value to customer support. When your Hydra dies, you have someone to be mad at, someone to hold accountable. When your DIY rig dies, it's all up to you.

You should DIY because you want something you can't buy off the shelf. You should DIY because you have odd requirements or you have ideas for improvements that aren't in commercial units. You should DIY because you want to easily experiment with different colors of LED or different optics or you want some other flexibility without having to void a warranty. You should DIY because it's fun and it's a way to have a sense of pride in your system. You should not DIY to save money.
One of your threads years ago is what got me started with DIY lighting. The system I built during that timeline is still running over my 29 gallon bio-cube today.

Fun and Pride - good choice of words.


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Old 12/08/2017, 05:33 AM   #21
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If you truly enjoy the build process and/or have unusual requirements, then diy makes perfect sense.

If you are doing it to save money, that theory went out the window about 5 years ago and is even less important today. You can buy very good basic 16" leds for $100. You can get good sunrise/sunset control in a 16" for $250. You can get all that plus 6 channel color control, a remote programming ability and a killer slimline aluminum case for $under $400. And 32" and 48" fixtures are even a better value.


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Old 12/08/2017, 09:37 AM   #22
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Quote:
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Yeah no, DIY is cheaper.
this is misleading, as you are not comparing apples to apples.

In a previous thread, another person who did diy led also insists it is cheaper and not ugly, then posts a picture of his work. man, was it fugly. but I guess if you made it yourself, objectiveness goes out the window.

and no it is not a personal choice since the stated objective is to save money (refer to post #1 of this thread). If that was not the objective,and instead it was for learning, then yes, it becomes a choice.


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Old 12/08/2017, 09:44 AM   #23
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and writing good, refined software/firmware is no small task, and not something anyone can just pick up and learn and do.


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Old 12/08/2017, 09:54 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oreo57 View Post
LOL.. One of THE very reasons I DIY.. Call it "taking personal responsibility"...

Blaming bean counters ans sub-standard engineering/parts.. just not my thing..

Knowing 10% of anything (at the least) is prone to failure and stealing of my hard earned money.. I'd rather like to know how to fix it myself...

.
I agree. But, I don't think you should associate DIY with the ability to fix something. If I chose to, I would have no problem fixing the commercial light fixture hanging over my current tank. Meanwhile, there are countless examples on this very forum of people DIYing a fixture who clearly don't have the skills to repair anything (and probably shouldn't be DIYing a critical tank component in the first place, at least not without a bunch more learning).

The sentence you quoted was more intended to address the fact that a good commercial unit will come with a warranty and an assumption of good customer service. If my kessil dies a fee weeks after I bought it, I can make a phone call and a new one will show up on my porch. If my DIY rig dies, I have to find time in my busy schedule involving kids, work, and travel to sit down, diagnose, order parts, and do the repair.

Hobbies are meant to be fun. I like to participate in hobbies by choice, when and how I want to. That's the value of a warranty and good customer service, it gets you out of the "on call" role. It's not about cost or skill, it's about having my life interrupted.

Im not trying to blow this out of proportion, I'm just trying to explain because you seemed to slightly misinterpret my post.


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Old 12/08/2017, 09:58 AM   #25
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One of your threads years ago is what got me started with DIY lighting. The system I built during that timeline is still running over my 29 gallon bio-cube today.
Glad to hear it.

I don't want to come off as discouraging DIY. I think people should DIY if they want to. I just feel that if someone new to LED DIY for reef tanks decided to give it a try purely because they think they'll save money, they will be disappointed.


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