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Old 09/04/2019, 06:33 AM   #1
Mohreef
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Dosing chloroquine in a fish only tank

Does anyone have any experience with dosing chloroquine phosphate in a fish only tank with live rock and sand. I do have some snails and anemone in the tank however these can be removed if I am to dose. The reason for this question is because I saw a butterfly with what may be signs of inch.. however even if I were to catch and treat all fishes in the tank (for this I will need a huge quarantine tank) there will still be the parasite present in the tank... and it have been suggested that ick can go dormant without a host or the incubation time can be almost two months... I have been quarantining all fish but it seemes that something slipped pass. Thanks for any info


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Old 09/04/2019, 10:09 AM   #2
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I've helped some LFS clear their retail tanks (with rock/sand) of velvet using CP and this is how we did it: Start off by dosing 10 mg/L (40 mg/gal) and then subsequently dose 1 mg/L (4 mg/gal) every day thereafter. Daily redosing is ideal, but if that conflicts with your schedule then redosing 3 mg/L or 12 mg/gal every 3 days (for example) should still be adequate. CP has a wide therapeutic range (20-80 mg/gal), so the objective is to keep it within that concentration at all times. Keep redosing for 30 days.

The reason you have to keep redosing CP is because the amount of bacteria found in a typical DT environment will degrade the medication.


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Old 09/04/2019, 09:25 PM   #3
Mohreef
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Thank you, I will give it a try


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Old 09/04/2019, 09:29 PM   #4
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CP is a miracle drug! The only thing I didn't like about using it is that I could not test it like I could with copper. The equipment is out there, it is just so expensive, even for used equipment. Follow HF's guidelines and I am sure you will be fine.


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Old 09/05/2019, 06:20 AM   #5
Mohreef
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The other option I was concedering was dosing cupramine. Any taughts


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Old 09/05/2019, 10:43 AM   #6
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The other option I was concedering was dosing cupramine. Any taughts
There's going to be absorption (from the rocks/sand), so you'll need to use the Hanna High Range Copper Colorimeter (HI702) and test daily. Redose copper as you see the level dropping. Personally, I'd go with Copper Power because it has a wider therapeutic range (1.5-2.0) than Cupramine (0.4-0.5). So, easier to stay within therapeutic despite the absorption. Like I said, daily testing is the key.

No matter what copper you use though, you are looking at months of running Cuprisorb/Poly filter to pull all the copper out of the tank to make it reef safe again.


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Old 09/05/2019, 02:32 PM   #7
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The other option I was concedering was dosing cupramine. Any taughts
Copper causes more problems than it solves.
One of the biggest issues with copper is that it is an immunosuppressant. Weakening the fishs' immune system opens the door for all kinds of complications and secondary infections.
There are far better and more targeted medications against most parasites.

Copper is what you use if you don't know what you are treating or if you treat a multitude of parasites - which is why many LFS use it.


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Old 09/05/2019, 03:23 PM   #8
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Copper causes more problems than it solves.
One of the biggest issues with copper is that it is an immunosuppressant. Weakening the fishs' immune system opens the door for all kinds of complications and secondary infections.
There are far better and more targeted medications against most parasites.

Copper is what you use if you don't know what you are treating or if you treat a multitude of parasites - which is why many LFS use it.
What antiparasitics do you use? I ask because Chloroquine is also an immunosuppressant.


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Old 09/05/2019, 04:55 PM   #9
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What antiparasitics do you use? I ask because Chloroquine is also an immunosuppressant.
Formalin baths, Hyposalinity, and Praziquantel are what I generally use and formalin baths and TTM are the only prophylactic treatments I do.
And while CP is an immunosuppressant, it is the most effective treatment against Amyloodinium and requires shorter exposure times than copper.

When it comes to Cryptocaryon in a big system I would rather eliminate the stressors and let the the fishs' immune systems handle it rather than go the chemical route or treat the whole system.
Should individual fish get too sick I would pull them and treat them separately with either TTM or hypo or both and then give them the time they need to get their defenses up against the parasite before returning them. This worked well for me and after about a year without new additions the parasite had actually died out in the system.


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Old 09/05/2019, 06:18 PM   #10
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Formalin baths, Hyposalinity, and Praziquantel are what I generally use and formalin baths and TTM are the only prophylactic treatments I do.
And while CP is an immunosuppressant, it is the most effective treatment against Amyloodinium and requires shorter exposure times than copper.

When it comes to Cryptocaryon in a big system I would rather eliminate the stressors and let the the fishs' immune systems handle it rather than go the chemical route or treat the whole system.
Should individual fish get too sick I would pull them and treat them separately with either TTM or hypo or both and then give them the time they need to get their defenses up against the parasite before returning them. This worked well for me and after about a year without new additions the parasite had actually died out in the system.
I get what you are saying however parasites have evolved to survive .. so when we think our fish are ick free because their immune system is in good order (this may cause them to be able to produce a thicker slime coat for example) it may be that ick is still present in small numbers on maybe a few fish... in the gills etc... it could be they r just waiting for the right time to get the upper hand...this is just my thinking.


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Old 09/06/2019, 12:44 PM   #11
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I get what you are saying however parasites have evolved to survive .. so when we think our fish are ick free because their immune system is in good order (this may cause them to be able to produce a thicker slime coat for example) it may be that ick is still present in small numbers on maybe a few fish... in the gills etc... it could be they r just waiting for the right time to get the upper hand...this is just my thinking.
Scientific studies indicate that, in a closed system, without the introduction of new strains Cryptocaryon will lose its virulence and die out after a couple of generations (= reproduction cycles). My own observations align this.
Also, immune fish outright kill the parasites that try to feed on them and the parasites that manage to feed on a partially immune fish will not be as strong and virulent like the ones that feed on a fish without immunity or one with a compromised immune system. It is a war of attrition that the fish will win over time if you aid them by not introducing new Cryptocaryon strains (= don't add fish or anything wet that could have a Cryptocaryon on it) providing them decent water conditions, healthy food, and a stress free environment.


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3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...
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Old 09/06/2019, 10:06 PM   #12
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Formalin baths and TTM are the only prophylactic treatments I do.
How many formalin baths do you administer during TTM? And for how long? 45, 60 minutes??


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Old 09/07/2019, 12:19 AM   #13
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How many formalin baths do you administer during TTM? And for how long? 45, 60 minutes??
Usually just one 45 to 50 minute bath at the start of quarantine and then observation.

Against early stages of Brooklynella/Trichodina one or two baths followed by transfers are usually enough.

If I would suspect Amyloodinium or Uronema I would do transfers daily with a 45 to 50 minute bath before each transfer.

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3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...
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Old 09/07/2019, 09:29 AM   #14
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Usually just one 45 to 50 minute bath at the start of quarantine and then observation.

Against early stages of Brooklynella/Trichodina one or two baths followed by transfers are usually enough.

If I would suspect Amyloodinium or Uronema I would do transfers daily with a 45 to 50 minute bath before each transfer.
Interesting, thanks for the info. I'm always looking for new QT protocols to try out, so I might give yours a go. The challenge always is finding fish with active infections of velvet, brook, uronema, etc. to experiment on that aren't already too far gone.


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Old 09/07/2019, 09:38 AM   #15
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Yeah, at stores I generally avoid buying any fish that looks sick. Often I don't even buy healthy looking fish out of a system where other fish show signs of infections.
I rather try to avoid to have the need to treat new fish. But if you were around here I could point you to a store where it is often easy to find all kinds of interesting fish diseases.

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3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

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Old 09/07/2019, 10:47 AM   #16
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Yeah, at stores I generally avoid buying any fish that looks sick. Often I don't even buy healthy looking fish out of a system where other fish show signs of infections.
I rather try to avoid to have the need to treat new fish. But if you were around here I could point you to a store where it is often easy to find all kinds of interesting fish diseases.
I used to live near a Petco, and that kept me amply supplied with sick fish. I even gave the manager my phone # and would get a text when all the fish were dying. He gave me a 50% discount on those fish, and I really have Petco to thank for advancing my knowledge of fish disease treatments.

Now I live 40 minutes from the nearest Petco, and all they really keep in stock is damsels + clownfish. So, sometimes I can get a clown with Brooklynella to experiment on. Mainly H2O2 experimentation at this point.

The wholesalers I use always send me "clean looking" fish because they use subtherapeutic copper. So, unless I want to randomly gill scrape those fish I have no idea if they are infected with something.


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Old 09/11/2019, 06:20 AM   #17
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There's going to be absorption (from the rocks/sand), so you'll need to use the Hanna High Range Copper Colorimeter (HI702) and test daily. Redose copper as you see the level dropping. Personally, I'd go with Copper Power because it has a wider therapeutic range (1.5-2.0) than Cupramine (0.4-0.5). So, easier to stay within therapeutic despite the absorption. Like I said, daily testing is the key.

No matter what copper you use though, you are looking at months of running Cuprisorb/Poly filter to pull all the copper out of the tank to make it reef safe again.
Well regarding fish meds, here in Canada at least in Ontario all medications for fish are now controlled substances (I found this out a few days ago)ie fish stores no longer carry any med to treat fish except for the HERBAL crap that donít work.. I guess I will be learning Tank transfer.lol. However I may be able to score some copper power..is this less toxic than cupramine and easier to remove from the substrate or r u recommending it only because itís effective at a higher range and hence easier to test ... also will the Hanna checker be able to accurately read the concentration. Thank you


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Old 09/11/2019, 09:04 AM   #18
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Well regarding fish meds, here in Canada at least in Ontario all medications for fish are now controlled substances (I found this out a few days ago)ie fish stores no longer carry any med to treat fish except for the HERBAL crap that donít work.. I guess I will be learning Tank transfer.lol. However I may be able to score some copper power..is this less toxic than cupramine and easier to remove from the substrate or r u recommending it only because itís effective at a higher range and hence easier to test ... also will the Hanna checker be able to accurately read the concentration. Thank you
The whole Cupramine vs. Copper Power debate really comes down to personal preference. Copper is copper, and both get the job done. I prefer Copper Power because a) It has a wider therapeutic range so less chance of overdosing/underdosing b) Most of the fish I have treated with Copper Power seem to tolerate it well.

You might also be interested in this: https://www.reefcentral.com/forums/s....php?t=2697605


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Old 09/11/2019, 01:25 PM   #19
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Well regarding fish meds, here in Canada at least in Ontario all medications for fish are now controlled substances (I found this out a few days ago)ie fish stores no longer carry any med to treat fish except for the HERBAL crap that donít work..
So you need to go to the vet and get a prescription or what?


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3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...
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Old 09/11/2019, 04:25 PM   #20
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So you need to go to the vet and get a prescription or what?
Yes that will be the only way to get those meds however most vets Iíve asked in the pass say they donít do fish


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Old 09/11/2019, 06:09 PM   #21
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Yes that will be the only way to get those meds however most vets Iíve asked in the pass say they donít do fish
And they can't even give you a prescription? I mean, nobody asks for a diagnosis, right?


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3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...
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Old 09/11/2019, 09:52 PM   #22
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It sounds like hobbyists in Canada are kinda screwed.


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Old 09/11/2019, 11:37 PM   #23
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It sounds like hobbyists in Canada are kinda screwed.
Maybe we need to send them care packages...;-)

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3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...
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Old 09/12/2019, 10:17 AM   #24
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Maybe we need to send them care packages...;-)
Customs might not like that!


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Old 09/29/2019, 10:16 AM   #25
Mohreef
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Maybe we need to send them care packages...;-)

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Seems that way... I purchased some copper power from amazon in the US and had it shipped here ... it took a week to clear customs...
On another note I started dosing my fish only tank with copper power took 6 days to bring concentration to 1.75 ,strange thing is I have a cleaner shrimp in that tank that I couldnít catch and he is still doing well


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