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Old 12/19/2006, 08:12 PM   #551
jmann
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Does anyone have a good idea for a system to freeze this food. It is dang near impossible to get the cubes to release out of the tray. I did find some blue trays that have half a ball style cube and there is 60 per tray and they each hold 3ml of liquid. I can remember a pic way back where the cubes looked to be in a sealed pouch with seperate sealed cubes, anyone know how to do that??? John


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Old 12/19/2006, 10:33 PM   #552
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Hi,

What if the fish and corals get fat because of the sugar? We have so many good alternatives....Sweet n Low, Splenda, Nutra-Sweet..........!! Lets think about their waist lines people!

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Old 12/20/2006, 01:06 AM   #553
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...errore



Last edited by Sir; 12/20/2006 at 01:33 AM.
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Old 12/20/2006, 01:32 AM   #554
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errore !


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Old 12/20/2006, 01:32 AM   #555
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ancora errore! hummmmmm


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Old 12/20/2006, 01:32 AM   #556
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Quote:
Originally posted by Roadtoad
Dang, this is a long thread-I only made it to page 14 so far! I have a couple of things to say, after reading here and poking around on reefitalia.

First, growth hormone is not a steroid, it is a protein that has anabolic properties.

Second, I thought maybe the answer to the mysterious aminoacid recipe could be found doing a literature search. (unless it was revealed in the last 8 pages that I havent read yet)
It turns out that several glycoproteins are found in coral skeletons. A couple of references found that the skeletons were enriched in aspartic acid and glycine (at a 3.5 to 1 ratio). If we assume that freezing breaks up human growth hormone into individual amino acids (which it doesn't-not even close) there would be 192 total AA per protein molecule, 11 of which would be Aspartic acid and 8 would be glycine. Because there are 20 "normal" amino acids we would have to conclude that these two are not over-represented in hGH.

Supplements of these two amino acids might be better than whey protein that some of the Reefitalia guys are/were using and would be cheaper and more legal than buying growth hormone!




finalmente funziona!

sono d'accordo!
come gi* avevo scritto,vorrei provare a dosare questi due amminoacidi separatamente....

ottima intuizione!

ciao


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Old 12/20/2006, 07:11 AM   #557
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I flatten my blender mush out in a plastic bag, and then just break off chuncks.


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Old 12/20/2006, 07:46 AM   #558
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RoadToad: Thanks for clearing it all up, I hope I didn't say it was a hormone perse (I was thinking of how it can pass through cell membranes). If I did, my biochem teacher would kick my butt haha. Right now I think that the HGH breaking up in the watercolumn is what would supply aminos and I agree that once we determine exactly what AA's the corals are deficient in, we can dose accordingly. However, that apparently is going to be the subject of an upcoming research article, so until it gets accepted by its respective journal, we can't view it.

Pito: Yes this is mainly a coral food given the particle size. As for the fish, I'll have to ask, but I did see bisck feed spirulina to his tangs as well as other food. As you will see in the next update, the "pappone" is supposed to be fed after the lights go out.

Lead: I got some more instructions on when and how to feed and I will post it in an updated recipe when I have time. I really would be wary of that six start "body fuel" lol. But yeah if you use any frozen stuff, I would make sure that it is of course food without preservatives. Heck maybe if this catches on, someone in like Washington could send you a batch via UPS or something. For now, I think it would be good to use the same ratios as the recipe just to be safe, because it is somewhat "perfected" through experience over here in Italy. You should possibly avoid the phyto addition also.

55semireef: I really don't know yet, but I'll start looking when I'm back in the states(someone help me out here).


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Old 12/20/2006, 07:59 AM   #559
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Quote:
Originally posted by jmann
Does anyone have a good idea for a system to freeze this food. It is dang near impossible to get the cubes to release out of the tray. I did find some blue trays that have half a ball style cube and there is 60 per tray and they each hold 3ml of liquid. I can remember a pic way back where the cubes looked to be in a sealed pouch with seperate sealed cubes, anyone know how to do that??? John
When I get home, I'm going to use an old Formula 1 cube tray that they come with when you buy them. But you have a good point, someone needs to find any easy solution for this.


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Old 12/20/2006, 08:31 AM   #560
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“Pappone” Recipe – Italian Coral Food (Updated 12/20/2006)

Materials:
5 Oysters
5 Mussels
5 Clams
5 Shrimp (NOT cocktail shrimp, the big scampi type w/o the head and the shell)
1 Tablespoon of Sugar
200 mL of RO/DI water
10 g of Red Algae (Palmaria palmata; Bisck uses Julian Sprung's brand)
and/or 10 g of Spirulina, 10 g of Nori (spirulina is what Bisck prefers)

Methods: Make SURE that all ingredients are the freshest possible and DO NOT use frozen foods (unless it is impossible for you). Make sure everything "live" is rinsed and cleaned before putting it into the blender. Put all the ingredients into the blender and blend for 5 min, wait 2 min for it to cool, 5 more min blending, 2 min of waiting again, then finally another 5 min of blending (the pausing is so that the solution doesn't get too hot and "cook" from the heat of the blender/blades). Pour into cube forms (approx 10 mL each). Then freeze it all—you want to minimize how long everything is at room temperature.

Procedure: One hour prior to turning off your lights, you have the option of adding Amino acids to the tank*. (For example, 11pm Halides off, add AA’s, 12am, actinics off, then add pappone). Take off the cup of your skimmer, but leave the skimmer running (so you don’t have a massive drop in O2 levels overnight). After the lights are off, start with only a ¼ of a cube per WEEK for every 400 L of tank water (approx 100 gallons). Be sure to measure NO3 and PO4 the next morning so that these parameters don't spike after feeding. You can reduce the amount fed if you are having nutrient problems. Also don’t forget to put the skimmer cup back on the next morning before the lights go back on.

*If everything is going well. It is good to wait and see how the tank is doing for awhile before trying this. The whole point here is that you don't want to change anything too fast, because nothing good happens quickly in this hobby. (Another method to grind up amino acid pills in the next batch of food; however Bisck found that it sometimes causes diatom outbreaks in his tank).


-------------

I'm leaving for the states tonight so I'll try to update when I get home. But 14 hours of flying might make my responses slow

I'm in the process of figuring out the tank parameters that people had questions about as well as the AA question.


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Old 12/20/2006, 08:32 AM   #561
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We must not get hung up on the hGH thing. We have to realize that fraction of hGH in any of those mixtures is going to be a miniscule component of the total protein load...way less than.01% those tablets have very little protein in them think micrograms. hGH is a hormone, it is not a steroid (different structure-remember back to bio or organic chemistry). The truth is that there arent any aminoacids in hGH that are over represented as compared to what you would expect from random selection. My guess is that hGH is doing something else or it is mediating the placebo effect.

Sir, dobiamo parlare. che studia? Io sono professore di neurologia e immunologia.


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Old 12/20/2006, 11:29 AM   #562
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Quote:
Originally posted by Roadtoad
Dang, this is a long thread-I only made it to page 14 so far! I have a couple of things to say, after reading here and poking around on reefitalia.

First, growth hormone is not a steroid, it is a protein that has anabolic properties.

Second, I thought maybe the answer to the mysterious aminoacid recipe could be found doing a literature search. (unless it was revealed in the last 8 pages that I havent read yet)
It turns out that several glycoproteins are found in coral skeletons. A couple of references found that the skeletons were enriched in aspartic acid and glycine (at a 3.5 to 1 ratio). If we assume that freezing breaks up human growth hormone into individual amino acids (which it doesn't-not even close) there would be 192 total AA per protein molecule, 11 of which would be Aspartic acid and 8 would be glycine. Because there are 20 "normal" amino acids we would have to conclude that these two are not over-represented in hGH.

Supplements of these two amino acids might be better than whey protein that some of the Reefitalia guys are/were using and would be cheaper and more legal than buying growth hormone!
Check out this page, you can find a paper I referenced regarding aspartic acid. My research into the topic has lead me to the same idea as you, .

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...&pagenumber=19

BTW I started dosing aspartic acid into my tank as per the papers referenced and at the concentration listed.


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Old 12/20/2006, 11:30 AM   #563
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Since there are many different sizes of cubes in the trays you buy I think the doze was 5ml per 100 gals or 400L so you can measure that amount out. John


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Old 12/20/2006, 11:56 AM   #564
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Solbby can you expand on the doage you are using say per 50 gals of tank water, I don't know what 1.9 mmol is in volume. Thanks John


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Old 12/20/2006, 01:58 PM   #565
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Quote:
Originally posted by Roadtoad
We must not get hung up on the hGH thing. We have to realize that fraction of hGH in any of those mixtures is going to be a miniscule component of the total protein load...way less than.01% those tablets have very little protein in them think micrograms. hGH is a hormone, it is not a steroid (different structure-remember back to bio or organic chemistry). The truth is that there arent any aminoacids in hGH that are over represented as compared to what you would expect from random selection. My guess is that hGH is doing something else or it is mediating the placebo effect.

Sir, dobiamo parlare. che studia? Io sono professore di neurologia e immunologia.
Bè, allora ne sai molto più di me

io sono un quasi biologo!

comunque le tue intuizioni sull'ormone sono giuste!e l'effetto che produce non è un effetto placebo...si apprezza una maggiore crescita...
basterebbe integrare solo alcuni amminoacidi per avere quegli effetti...
sopratutto l'acido aspartico , in quanto è direttamente correlato con la calcificazione...quindi una sua aggiunta può realmente aumentare la sintesi proteica, e quindi portare il corallo ad una crescita maggiore.

ancora non lo provo però!

ciao


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Old 12/20/2006, 02:05 PM   #566
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir
Bè, allora ne sai molto più di me

io sono un quasi biologo!

comunque le tue intuizioni sull'ormone sono giuste!e l'effetto che produce non è un effetto placebo...si apprezza una maggiore crescita...
basterebbe integrare solo alcuni amminoacidi per avere quegli effetti...
sopratutto l'acido aspartico , in quanto è direttamente correlato con la calcificazione...quindi una sua aggiunta può realmente aumentare la sintesi proteica, e quindi portare il corallo ad una crescita maggiore.

ancora non lo provo però!

ciao
Bè, then you know of it a lot more of me

I am an almost biologist!

However your intuitions on the hormone I am just! and the effect that produces is not an effect placebo. ..si appreciates a greater growth... It would suffice to integrate alone some amminoacidi to have those effects... Above all the acid aspartico, as directly is correlated with the calcification. ..therefore its addition really can increase the protein synthesis, and therefore to carry the corallo to a greater growth.


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Old 12/20/2006, 07:33 PM   #567
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Quote:
BTW I started dosing aspartic acid into my tank as per the papers referenced and at the concentration listed.
Solby, do you have any results to share with us yet?


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Old 12/20/2006, 08:48 PM   #568
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Solbby, I finally went back and read the rest of the thread. I also found that reference, amazing what pubmed and google scholar will do! What I didnt get from that paper is what protein that it is associated with. The coral biologists really need to get busy and clone that stuff so we cen know. Assuming that the concentration of Asp in NSW is close to 0 then we have to conclude that they concentrate it in their skeletons almost certainly in the form of a protein. Glycine is also present, as are the other aminos That is why I am not sure if dosing Asp alone will have a great effect, do we have any reason to think that Asp is limiting in a tank or in the "glutton"? When you look a this whole method, may be just a really good feeding program, like demonstrated by the paper you cited, fed corals calcify more.

I guess you are doing the Asp experiment, are you dosing at 1.9 mmol/liter right? I dont know if that concentration into the tank water will be an effective dose. It is as good a dose as any to start with though. Keep us posted on the effects.

Jmann, Here is the conversion for you and everyone please, check my math...(molecular weight of Asp=133.1)
1.9mmol/liter conversion to mg/50gallons
1.9mmol/L x3.8liters/gallon x50gal =361mmol/50gal
361mmoles /133.1mg/mmole =2.7mg per 50 gallons
Just find the ammount of Asp per tablet and you are in business.


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Old 12/20/2006, 09:00 PM   #569
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Robert Patterso, I just moved to Coppell, in fact I was just at the lowes in Denton. What kind of cycling do you do and where do you do it? I have been looking for some climbs with no luck!

Sir, dovrete perdonare il mio italiano fanno 10 anni che non parlo. Se l'effetto (il aumento nella crescita) è specifico a hGH, (o intero o frammento) dovremmo colaborate e clonare il ricevitore (receptor).


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Old 12/20/2006, 09:28 PM   #570
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Quote:
Originally posted by Roadtoad
Robert Patterso, I just moved to Coppell, in fact I was just at the lowes in Denton. What kind of cycling do you do and where do you do it? I have been looking for some climbs with no luck!

Sir, dovrete perdonare il mio italiano fanno 10 anni che non parlo. Se l'effetto (il aumento nella crescita) è specifico a hGH, (o intero o frammento) dovremmo colaborate e clonare il ricevitore (receptor).
I moved here from Ventura, CA. 2 yrs. ago. I raced mountain bikes in sport class age group racing, NORBA, and a little road racing. Mainly road for training. Six weeks after I moved here I wrecked my back and had to have surgery, that took me out for the first year I was here. This year I broke my wrist pretty bad and have been in a cast or splint for seven months, still in a splint. So no riding at all. I put in about 300 miles when I first got here and that's it.

If you ride road, sorry there are no hills to climb, this is TX. You have to go down to Austin, hill country, to find any kind of hills. If you ride mountain bike they have some pretty good single track. I hope to get back on the bike this next year. Have about 35 lbs. to loose though and in terrible shape. Been a long two years.

What do you ride? What kind of bike or bikes?


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Old 12/20/2006, 09:33 PM   #571
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Hey roadtoad, why Texas?


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Old 12/20/2006, 09:35 PM   #572
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WOW! What a great looking tank!


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Old 12/20/2006, 10:50 PM   #573
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Quote:
1.9mmol/liter conversion to mg/50gallons
1.9mmol/L x3.8liters/gallon x50gal =361mmol/50gal
361mmoles /133.1mg/mmole =2.7mg per 50 gallons
Solby orginally said
Quote:
1.9 mmol/US gallon

Wouldn't that make it
95mmol/50gal or .7mg per 50 gallons?

I could be way off base, I just noticed that you two started from different points.


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Old 12/21/2006, 11:22 AM   #574
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Quote:
Originally posted by ocd_mariner
Solby orginally said



Wouldn't that make it
95mmol/50gal or .7mg per 50 gallons?

I could be way off base, I just noticed that you two started from different points.
YES you are indeed correct. I already converted L to US gallons.

0.7mg per 50gallons is correct.


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Old 12/21/2006, 11:45 AM   #575
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Quote:
Originally posted by Roadtoad
Robert Patterso, I just moved to Coppell, in fact I was just at the lowes in Denton. What kind of cycling do you do and where do you do it? I have been looking for some climbs with no luck!

Sir, dovrete perdonare il mio italiano fanno 10 anni che non parlo. Se l'effetto (il aumento nella crescita) è specifico a hGH, (o intero o frammento) dovremmo colaborate e clonare il ricevitore (receptor).
Intendi il recettore che si trova sui coralli??? ho fatto diverse ricerche, ma è molto difficile trovare, sopratutto su internet, articoli interessanti su questo aspetto....

diamo ormai per scontato che i frammenti del gh influenzano la crescita...
l'acido aspartico secondo me ha un ruolo molto importante...

Vi ricordo che il gh non è necessario...l'importante è garantire una ottima alimentazione ai coralli...quello è solo una spinta in più, ma bisogna essere molto cauti...la cosa migliore sarebbe quella di fare abituare il sistema al pappone e poi eventualmente aggiungere gh.

bye ! Fabio


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