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Old 03/03/2008, 08:14 AM   #1
Los
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Los' 360 reef CAD plans and setup

After drooling at all the great tanks here (especially Mako's), I took the plunge. I've ordered a 360 gallon 96Lx36Wx25H from Miracles in Glass, with Starphire on all four sides. I'd like to start off by thanking the real brains behind this tank:

-Nick (a.k.a. rlxwcapt on this board), who came up with many of the ideas. If you live in Maryland and want some professional help, I highly recommend him.
-Derek (from Miracles in Glass), who is making the tank and who has helped me think through and get exactly what I want. Definitely two thumbs up.
-Paul (from Oceans Motions). Paul has been a HUGE help selecting everything from who to make the tank to how to get the best bang for my buck while setting up a closed-loop. If you are thinking about a closed-loop, definitely call Paul. His advice as well as his equipment are second to none.
-MakoJ (from this board). Mako probably has no clue why I'm thanking him, but many of the ideas for setting this up were plagiarized from him. His beautiful tank was also "the last straw" which pushed me over the edge to set up my own tank. If you want to see a future TOTM, check out the thread for his tank at: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...5&pagenumber=1
-Finally, my wife. She is a total babe, the soon-to-be mother of my first child, and a very tolerant spouse considering my obsession with this hobby.

Now to the design pics:

This is a front view of the tank. It is going to be mounted in the wall and will be viewable from all four sides. Because of this, I especially wanted to leave the front and back unobstructed.


This is a bottom view of the closed loop plumbing. The key to this setup is the flow. I'll explain how that works in a later thread:



You can see the overflow, which is only on the right side of the tank. There will be two Dursos and an open-ended emergency overflow as a backup.


This is the right side of the tank and a close-up of the overflow box:


Here is another view of the closed loop holes. There are ten of them, with the two large intakes split into 4 - in case an anemone or fish happens to wander too close.


Here is a top view of the whole tank:


Finally, here's the last CAD pic showing the front left view of the tank:


Thanks for taking the time to look at my baby!

Cheers,

Los


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Current Tank Info: 360 reef / 700 system with 4xSfiligoi XR6s, Sfiligoi XR4, BubbleKing 300 Deluxe Internal, Deltec PF601s, PM Kalk, Deltec FR616, Deltec FR509, AquaController APEX, Tunze 6305, 2x6205, 2x6101, 6100, 3xDart Golds, Barracuda, Snapper, 2xOceans Motions
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Old 03/03/2008, 08:35 AM   #2
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Here is the picture of the flow. I want to grow mainly SPS, but I think this design will let me have a few LPS and softies in the corners - which is exactly what I wanted. As you can see, there are going to be two separate Oceans Motions 4 ways (in addition to the sump return which is not pictured here). These two are going to be powered independently by 2 Sequence Reeflo Darts @ 3600gph each. The pumps are going to alternate being on and off every few hours, with just an hour of overlap each time.
This is a picture of the bottom of the tank:


Note how the returns are all pointed just a tad up from horizontal EXCEPT for the two furthest from the middle (i.e. closest to the right and left sides respectively). Those are pointed up at 45 degree angles. The idea is to have a circular flow turning first clockwise for a few hours and then counter clockwise for a few hours (if you were facing the front of the tank), with an hour of turbulence in between with both pumps on. Here is a diagram of the flow, but please note that the placement of the returns are approximate in this picture:

The pumps will turn on and off on this schedule, designed to imitate the changing tides:
Pump 1 Pump 2
hr 1 on on
hr 2 on off
hr 3 on off
hr 4 on on
hr 5 off on
hr 6 off on
hr 7 on on
hr 8 on off
hr 9 on off
hr10 on on
hr11 off on
hr12 off on

I guess my main concerns are two:

1. Will the Reeflo Darts get damaged by being turned on and off a few times each day?
2. Can this many holes be drilled into the bottom without causing structural weakness? I guess Derek with Miracles will know, but any outside opinions would be most welcome. (EDIT: Derek said it was not a problem, as long as there was enough space between each hole to accommodate the rule of: space between each hole > 3 x diameter of the larger hole).

If you have any suggestions, I'd love the input.

Thanks for taking the time to look at my tank.

Los


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Current Tank Info: 360 reef / 700 system with 4xSfiligoi XR6s, Sfiligoi XR4, BubbleKing 300 Deluxe Internal, Deltec PF601s, PM Kalk, Deltec FR616, Deltec FR509, AquaController APEX, Tunze 6305, 2x6205, 2x6101, 6100, 3xDart Golds, Barracuda, Snapper, 2xOceans Motions

Last edited by Los; 03/03/2008 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 03/03/2008, 09:30 AM   #3
Jflip2002
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no way the dart will be enough flow for SPS. Unless youre running two of them. I have a 190, was going to use a hammerhead, and was even told THAT wont be enough for SPS, while my tank is half your size. Id reconsider the pump size. Id go at least hammerhead.


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Old 03/03/2008, 09:38 AM   #4
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Thanks for bringing that up, Jflip. I'm actually going to be running three Darts: 1 each on the two closed loops and 1 on the sump return. There will be at least two running at all times (sump return + at least one of the closed loops). About 25% of the time all three will be running. When two pumps are running, I should have about 5,600 gph. When all three are running, that should climb to 9,200 gph. That works out to 15x turnover 75% of the time and and 25x turnover 25% of the time.

Do you still think that's not enough? I'm really concerned about noise, since this will be in my living room.

Thanks,

Los


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Current Tank Info: 360 reef / 700 system with 4xSfiligoi XR6s, Sfiligoi XR4, BubbleKing 300 Deluxe Internal, Deltec PF601s, PM Kalk, Deltec FR616, Deltec FR509, AquaController APEX, Tunze 6305, 2x6205, 2x6101, 6100, 3xDart Golds, Barracuda, Snapper, 2xOceans Motions
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Old 03/03/2008, 09:57 AM   #5
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Carlos- this may be your greatest mad scientist tank yet - I can imagine your living room already filled with trash cans full of curing rock...boy does it smell in there. :-)

Looking forward to seeing this progress


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Old 03/03/2008, 10:28 AM   #6
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Los, great drawings...

Where will the 3 darts be drawing water from, closed loop?

Also are you going to have rock covering the return inlets? If so you have nowhere near enough flow for SPS. Those Darts are not pressure rated and they drop off fast with head pressure.

Keep us posted...


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Old 03/03/2008, 01:41 PM   #7
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just found the thread and thanks lol

You have the one thing I wish my tank had is the extra 6" in depth. Will be following your thread it looks like you off to a great start and I can't wait to see it develop!


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Old 03/03/2008, 03:21 PM   #8
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Ricks, The rock will not cover the returns from the OM. They will be worked into the rock work. What we are trying to create is tidal current. We had planned to have 2 vortex but have decided to wait on this. But this could always be added in the future. Paul and I spent many hours talking about this design. Keep in mind that you do not have head pressure in a closed loop. Yes you will loose some flow do to fittings. What pumps do you have on your tank?


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Old 03/03/2008, 08:56 PM   #9
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For noise, why not run say a hammerhead, and then run some Tunzes? the hammerhead brings around 5600 GPH IIRC, and the Tunzes 6101s add another 3000 gph themselves. Or go with bigger ones. That'll help with the noise I think.


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Old 03/03/2008, 10:46 PM   #10
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I'm only worried about the number of holes in the bottom. I too want to have a type of tidal flow that causes a circular motion in the tank. Then the reverse. Are you sure you wouldn't do better with an A.G.E. tank? A PVC bottom surely wouldn't crack. But hey, it's also gonna cost you several more thousand for it probably.

Other than that I will be subscribed and watch with saliva dripping from my mouth!

Aaron.


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Old 03/04/2008, 12:29 AM   #11
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wow thats an impressive setup... cant wait to seewhat she will look like in action


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Old 03/04/2008, 07:50 AM   #12
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Jflip, We want to try to stay away from powerer heads. We want the tank to look as natural as posible.

Dogstar, That was a concern for us as well. Derek at Miracle uses a formula for glass strength. Keep in mind that the bottom is 96" x 36". I have a 120 that has 10 holes drilled in the bottom and I have no problems.


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Old 03/04/2008, 08:07 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by djbacon
Carlos- this may be your greatest mad scientist tank yet - I can imagine your living room already filled with trash cans full of curing rock...boy does it smell in there. :-)

Looking forward to seeing this progress
Thanks, Rick! I look forward to you visiting and enjoying the smell in person. I also look forward to swapping frags with your nano.

Quote:
Originally posted by makoJ
just found the thread and thanks lol

You have the one thing I wish my tank had is the extra 6" in depth. Will be following your thread it looks like you off to a great start and I can't wait to see it develop!
Thanks, Mako. I had to negotiate a bit with my wife for the added space . BTW, how do you like the Hammerhead on the closed loop? I plan on having a few inches of sand and I'm a bit worried about that much flow stirring up the bottom too much AND about the noise. Since you've already been down that road, how do you like it?

Quote:
Originally posted by dogstar74
I'm only worried about the number of holes in the bottom. I too want to have a type of tidal flow that causes a circular motion in the tank. Then the reverse. Are you sure you wouldn't do better with an A.G.E. tank? A PVC bottom surely wouldn't crack. But hey, it's also gonna cost you several more thousand for it probably.

Other than that I will be subscribed and watch with saliva dripping from my mouth!

Aaron.
Thanks, Aaron. I've been assured that it will be OK by Miracles Aquariums. Frankly, I like glass bottoms. I like being able to look up through the bottom of the tank. I've also never had a tank fail and this one is way over engineered. For example, you can get away with 1/2", but Derek pretty much insisted on going past 5/8" and all the way to 3/4" glass. It will also be tempered. I have confidence in their work, so I'm not too worried.

Cheers,

Los


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Current Tank Info: 360 reef / 700 system with 4xSfiligoi XR6s, Sfiligoi XR4, BubbleKing 300 Deluxe Internal, Deltec PF601s, PM Kalk, Deltec FR616, Deltec FR509, AquaController APEX, Tunze 6305, 2x6205, 2x6101, 6100, 3xDart Golds, Barracuda, Snapper, 2xOceans Motions
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Old 03/04/2008, 08:08 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by aspinn
wow thats an impressive setup... cant wait to seewhat she will look like in action
Thanks, Aspinn. I'll post pictures as I progress.

Los


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.\ ~ / The Big Mo' - in honor of Trey and Matt

Current Tank Info: 360 reef / 700 system with 4xSfiligoi XR6s, Sfiligoi XR4, BubbleKing 300 Deluxe Internal, Deltec PF601s, PM Kalk, Deltec FR616, Deltec FR509, AquaController APEX, Tunze 6305, 2x6205, 2x6101, 6100, 3xDart Golds, Barracuda, Snapper, 2xOceans Motions
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Old 03/04/2008, 08:19 AM   #15
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I am making the final decisions on equipment. Any advice would be most welcome. Also, if someone happens to know of any of this equipment available used, definitely shoot me a private message. I'm always on the look out for a good deal:

- Bubble King 300 Deluxe internal (first choice) or possibly: ATB Large, Deltec AP702 or 703, Euro-Reef RC500 or 750, or comparable skimmer;
- Deltec PF601S Calcium Reactor or an existing Korallin C3002 I bought on ebay;
- 4x 400w lighting system with Lumenarcs;
- 1/2 HP chiller;
- about 300 lbs of live rock.

I also could really use advice on controllers. I travel a lot (I'm in Shanghai as I write this) and I'd love to find a computer that would allow me to monitor the tank in real time. It needs to be easy to use and reliable as well. Any input would be most welcome.

Finally, it sounds like I may have to break down and either move up to a Hammerhead or two or get a couple Tunze and/or Vortec streams.

Thanks!

Los


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.\ ~ / The Big Mo' - in honor of Trey and Matt

Current Tank Info: 360 reef / 700 system with 4xSfiligoi XR6s, Sfiligoi XR4, BubbleKing 300 Deluxe Internal, Deltec PF601s, PM Kalk, Deltec FR616, Deltec FR509, AquaController APEX, Tunze 6305, 2x6205, 2x6101, 6100, 3xDart Golds, Barracuda, Snapper, 2xOceans Motions
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Old 03/04/2008, 08:41 AM   #16
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Awesome drawings and planning!

Regarding a controller, I am getting to know my aquacontroller from neptune. You can use it to control all of your wavemaking devices, including variable speed devices like tunzes. Probably not vortechs except in on/off mode. It can also turn on and off your darts, run your chiller / heater, maintain pH in your Calcium reactor etc... I am sure there are other controllers out there, but, this one can do just about anything. You can also use the web interface to track the data accumulated from your tank over time.

By the way... where will all the equipment go?

Are you building a canopy for this tank?

What are the plans for your ventillation system?


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Old 03/04/2008, 08:46 AM   #17
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nice tank design... and especially like your ideas for flow, could lead to some great aqua-scaping options.

About the equipment
- I have only had a deltec high end skimmer and have been very happy with the performance but bubble king also have a hell of a reputation
- I have a PF501 calcium reactor and am happy with that as well, thought it is a little small. Its my first calcium reactor but it has been fairly easy to tune and run, the media is a PITA to get clean though
- I have been very happy with the 400w in lumenarcs in a 36" deep SPS dominated tank and have some acros on the bottom 6" on the tank with no problems so far (but its still a new tank so we will see)
- Computers (I travel a lot as well)
---> I have a aquatronica on this tank and would probably not recommend it. It has great options and connect-ability but a few short comings. For example I have had to have it replace 3 times due to a variety of problems (which hasn't been to much of a pain) but I currently use it without problems and it controls almost everything that can be automated on a reef tank.
---> I have had the IKS aquastar which was more or less flawless but has become outdated in my own opinion
---> I have a Neptune Aquacontroller Pro waiting for me in the US for my next tank and have hear nothing but good things so far.
---> It might be a good idea to ask Invincible about his controller as it is the new top of the line that he has been testing (I think).

If you move up to the Hammerheads that is 2 very large pumps for closed loops but you can always dial them back until you need the extra flow. 2 Barracudas might be better as it is a in between the dart and hammerhead. I am a big fan of tunze PH myself but they are an eyesore if you can't hide them nicely and have seen the flow from the Vortec which was very impressive but hardly inconspicuous on the outside on the tank. If you can the closed loops would be the way I go in my opinion and the manufacturer can advise on the drilling panel.

Good luck man and have fun. Great build


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Old 03/04/2008, 09:01 AM   #18
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Thanks, Fishtruck. I'm glad you like the drawings. I made them using Google's free CAD software called Sketchup. The learning curve takes an hour or two, but once you get the hang of it - it is very powerful. You can really see how everything will fit and you can then look at it all from multiple different angles.

I'll start researching Neptune's Aquacontrollers. It's good to hear that Thirschmann is going to use one as well. That's what I love about this board. A lot of super-knowledgeable folks eager to help. Believe me, it is much appreciated.

The more I hear, the more it sounds like Barracudas would be the way to go. I think I'll start off with a Dart for the return pump, a Dart for closed loop #1, and a Barracuda for closed loop #2. If I later decide I like the 'cuda better than the Dart, I can always buy another and keep the 2nd Dart as a spare. Thirschmann, thanks for the suggestion. I may also consider a Tunze power head or two. Frankly, I *could* hide one or two on each side. It's not ideal aesthetically, but those suckers do give you a lot of bang for your buck. The other thing is I really like the battery backup options available for those. We lose power all the time where I live and I'm considering getting a generator which will automatically kick in. A Tunze and battery back up would be a heck of a lot cheaper.

Thanks!

Los


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Current Tank Info: 360 reef / 700 system with 4xSfiligoi XR6s, Sfiligoi XR4, BubbleKing 300 Deluxe Internal, Deltec PF601s, PM Kalk, Deltec FR616, Deltec FR509, AquaController APEX, Tunze 6305, 2x6205, 2x6101, 6100, 3xDart Golds, Barracuda, Snapper, 2xOceans Motions
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Old 03/04/2008, 09:45 AM   #19
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I picked up a automatic generator as soon as I decided to get a big tank and I love it. With the hurricanes and big storms here in florida it has kicked in a handful of times and is just really convenient for a home anyways (I don't have a fish tank there at the moment). The peace of mind of having a automatic backup generator is definitely worth it, especially if you travel all the time. Plus even if you are at home you don't have to go through the power outage scramble of getting circulation and air in your tank.


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Old 03/04/2008, 10:03 AM   #20
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Los...

You asked about pumps..

I run a hammerhead on (4) inlet CL. (4) 100 iwaki's on (3) sea swirls and (1) return center back for keeping detritus from building up under rocks. And had to add (6) tunze 6200's (3) on each side for more flow to keep up with the SPS growth. I'm in the process of adding more flow options.

I run (6) 400's on HQI's, (4) 160 actinic and (4) 96 PC's for the most spectrum I can achieve. That is on a 96 x 36 x 36 500 gallon.

I also belive a back up generator is a must along with a back up chiller. I have a second 1HP set 2 degrees above the first. those pumps and lights would fry the system in a few hours. Just for peace of mind.

Happy Reefing


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Old 03/04/2008, 10:27 AM   #21
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I recommend the second chiller as well. Currently I have enough fans on my system to act as a complete backup to my chiller (instead of a second chiller) and they are also set 2 degrees lower but evaporate a lot of water and I don't really recommend it, but they are a cheap alternative to a back up chiller and can keep my tank below 81 as I found out while "testing" my system.


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Old 03/04/2008, 10:50 AM   #22
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thanks Ricks, I would love to see some pictures of your setup and tank.

Nick


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Old 03/04/2008, 11:05 AM   #23
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The hammerhead is very quite and pumps ton of water if it was too much you could dial it back or go with the barracuda.

and as far as the calcium reactor Deltec has been the best one I have used thus far out of MRC,GEO, and a custom unit. I have just upgraded to the PF1001 from the PF601S


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Old 03/04/2008, 11:17 AM   #24
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Here you go some shots of our 500 gallon reef










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Old 03/04/2008, 11:36 AM   #25
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Rick Thanx for the pics. Your tank looks great. How is the flow through your sump with the 4 iwakis? Why did you go with 4 100 iwakis? Do you have pictures of your sump? Los and I are still designing the sump. If anyone has pictures or ideas please let us know. So far we are looking at a sump 48 x 30 x 20" this will have a refugium 18 x 24, skimmer and calcium section 30 x 24. This will leave a run way of 48 x 6 for heaters,float valve and intake for the pumps.

Nick

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