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Unread 01/04/2009, 03:06 AM   #26
Lionel
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Quote:
Originally posted by liveforphysics
By contrast, my 4x250w setup made around 70,000 lumens total, but wasted the bulk of this of this light doing things like giving the surface of my glass 150-300PAR, and making the whole room glow like a spaceship is landing.
It seems to me maybe that's exactly what areze is trying to accomplish.. he needs light for his baking soda rocketship..


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Unread 01/04/2009, 08:16 AM   #27
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I happen to be friends with Eric over at the glassbox so i read the article before coming in here to find this thread. I have to say that this idea was floating around my head for awhile, check out my signature which has been there for over a year. Its great to see someone implement this and im looking forward to more pictures and actual growth.


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Unread 01/04/2009, 12:44 PM   #28
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I find this interesting and though the negativity we could do without, the debate/proof and showings is neat to observe. Thank you for sharing liveforphysics and I hope to see more... pics!

PS - That analogy was great.. thank you both LFP and Bean Animal for sharing... even I understood it


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Unread 01/04/2009, 12:55 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Electrobes
I find this interesting and though the negativity we could do without, the debate/proof and showings is neat to observe. Thank you for sharing liveforphysics and I hope to see more... pics!

PS - That analogy was great.. thank you both LFP and Bean Animal for sharing... even I understood it
Other than the fact that I nessed up a few ZEROS here and there.

For clarity sake, lets do it again with more reasonable numbers:

(2) setups.

#1 = 1000W worth of electricity 90% efficent lighting over 100 square feet or about 9W per square foot over the whole tank.

#2 = 650W worth of 80% efficent lighting over 50 square feet (spotlights on 50 corals) or about 10.4W per square foot

So it is certainly possible to use less efficient lighting and still get more usable light where it is needed and use less overall electricity.

Does Luke's setup pan-out number wise? I dunno... It is an interesting project nonetheless. The first indicator will be how well the corals look mid to long term


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Unread 01/04/2009, 02:47 PM   #30
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Bean you touched on the very Japanese style/ feel of this lighting. a distinct advantage is in the ability to "individually" target individual pieces with lighting spectrum and intensity wise most appropriate for them. I'm very interested in the particular bulbs chosen and some more info on how it's wired up. etc.


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Unread 01/04/2009, 03:34 PM   #31
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could we see the spectral analysis that you did? youve reffered to the spectrum a few times, it would certainly go a long way to convincing me that Im mistaken.

perhaps some par readings as well? because your right, lumens are crap and can be misleading, so I presume youve measured par.


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Unread 01/04/2009, 03:40 PM   #32
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btw, Ive read that tropical climates, par at sea level is somewhere around 2000.

unfortunatly with my 1800w that you talk about photoinhibition, but I have not even begun to approach 2000par at the water surface. if only! granted I guess Ive "wasted" much of the light on areas that dont have coral. but I like it

where did you find the photoinhibition levels for your corals anyway? I have never seen such "hard" numbers published.


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Unread 01/04/2009, 03:49 PM   #33
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Awesome set up LFP! I've followed all of your work from the stainless/rimless/plywood tank, the VFD driven dart, the LFP super venturi, and that crazy new skimmer and am always amazed by your ingenuity. Are you going to release the brand/type/kelvin of HID bulb that you found to be of the best spectrum or do you not want to give away the secret just yet?


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Unread 01/04/2009, 08:14 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by BeanAnimal
JACO my friend, as I pointed out in the other thread, you have all sorts of things and contexts confused. Your making less sense than areze in your attempts to show him to be wrong.

As I pointed out in the other thread, and Luke has started to point out here...

Lets take a 10' x 10' tank and light it (2) ways.

First lets bath all 100 square feet with a 100% efficent light that consumes 100W even though only 50 square feet of that tank contain living creatures that need intense light. Lets assume that the light is even. So now we have about 1W intense light per sqaure foot of tank but 50W are being pretty much wasted.

Now lets bath that 100sq foot tank with 500W worth of light that is only 50% efficient. That is 250W worth of intense light entering the tank. Lets divide that light into 50 fixtures that produce 1 sqaure foot of intense light. That is 5W of intense light per each of the 50 zones. Lets call it 3W and some spillover into the "dark" areas.

So with setup #1 we use 1000W and lighjt the whole setup to the same intensity but only get about 1W of intensity in each of the 50 coral zones.

With setup #2 we use 500W of which only 250W is available but we get over 3W of intensity over each of the 50 coral zones and enough spillover to light the tank.

Setup #2 is much less efficient in terms of lumens (or PAR) per watt, but it uses a fraction of the electricity to provide the corals with MORE light where needed.

You just learned the difference between AREA (flood) lighting and ZONE (spot) lighting. Sometimes the most efficient technology is not the most efficient method.

Each method has pros and cons. In our case it is mostly aesthetics between the different types of lamps and combinations of lamps. If you do not like the "spotlight" look, then this is not for you at all. In Japan, the look has become the rage from what I have read.
never have i said to use these a a flood light i have talked about spotlighting from the start

and to what Luke has started to point out here...
has all been pointed to areze has
post

sorry that i was using lumens per watt and not spectral output and intensity
but when you look at the charts for a mh and these hid bulbs not standard xenon the are near the same


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Unread 01/04/2009, 08:19 PM   #35
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luke...............

You are the man.................and I just bet u in your near future more than one OEM will be in touch with you as I think your on to something that could be big......now I'm not a "tree hugger" or a greenie by no means BUT saving power is what could save our hobby............just my 2cents....

Keep up the great work !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dick


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Unread 01/04/2009, 09:00 PM   #36
BeanAnimal
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Quote:
Originally posted by JACOXVIII
never have i said to use these a a flood light i have talked about spotlighting from the start
Nobody said you did. Context my friend... you keep taking comments out of context to formulate your responses.


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Unread 01/04/2009, 09:17 PM   #37
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Thank you folks for all the kind words.

areze- If you read my response to you, i give PAR values Im seeing on the bottom of my tank.

Here is one article giving photo-inhibition numbers for a favorite coral of mine, montipora undata. Inhibition begins to occur at roughly 200par for this species.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/3/aafeature2/view

Here is photo-saturation data for a number of other species. They didn't push all the tests to the point of complete inhibition of photosynthesis, but they do show that point where additional light starts causing less photosynthesis.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/3/aafeature1/view

I may have too much light on my corals! I could change the current sensing shunt resistors in the ballast to lower the power of the HIDs (or remove some) if needed, and I do have full control over the output of the LEDs, so I can fix the problem if needed.


I will be doing a second look at the spectrum once I reach 200 hours of burn-in time on the bulbs. I will try to find something better than the Perkin Elmer Lambda POS that the community college physics lab I volunteer at had available, and then I will post some graphs.

I just read a very interesting article

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/12/aafeature1

It makes me want to re-evaluate my bulb choices to exclude the purple bulbs that had a few heavy red lines... The more I learn about corals, the more I realize they do not want anything like full spectrum lighting. I'm glad most of the Xenon bulbs and all of the LEDs are mainly composed of strong blue spikes in useful photosynthetic wavelengths.


Best Wishes,
-Luke


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Unread 01/04/2009, 09:57 PM   #38
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Part two of the article!

http://glassbox-design.com/2009/part...ghting-system/


This is a neat picture that shows you the intensity and focus of the spot lights. This is the second stage of the lighting turning on in the morning. My last setup used 7 stages of lighting between sunrise to sunset, I set this up to only use 5 stages, but I like the contrast in the lighting stages much more with this setup.




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Unread 01/04/2009, 10:23 PM   #39
JACOXVIII
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Quote:
Originally posted by BeanAnimal
[B]No I have not missed the point

Sorry my friend, but you can't hold me to comments I have not made. Please try to keep what has been said in context to where it was and and why.

You have taken up a cause on (2) of these threads but done so with a very clear gap in understanding of the technology. You are riding the coat tails of other's remarks to frame your own comments and it is getting you in trouble

When responding, please try to keep my comments and your subsuquent remarks in context to the threads they were made in. You are mixing context between two threads and confusing several different aspects of the technology being discussed.

I am not here to quibble with you, but rather to participate in Luke's lighting discussion. Again, I aplaud your enthusiasm with regard to this subject, but don't step in too deep before you know where the bottom is.

I attempted (as did Luke) to explain why the automotive HID lamps may work out in his setup. I also pointed out that your counter "attacks" towards areze may be well intentioned, but are not really well supported. Lets move forward, shall we.
sorry man but i do not like the way you post your context to always try and make someone look slow
you have said that i'm not up to speed
help speed me up

in the other thread i have been all for these lights and the way LFP has used them

on the other hand you have not
in more then 1 post all you have stated is how this will not work

your very first post over there that you posted in regards to hummermaniac88 wanting to use these hid bulbs is below

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
Your setup will work for a Fish Only tank, but will not suffice for a Reef Tank. The spectral output and intensity will not be correct.


or did you forget?



this was my first post over on the other thread

""ok fun we had the same idea http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...hreadid=1538451
i think it will work good
they all said led would not work at first but it does
but i thought a small group the hid like 3 or 4
1 green 1 blue 1 white 1 pink or red
maybe 3 in a triangle at the top of a lumen bright so it would beam all of the light right to the bottom of the tank""


yes i did not talk about the spotlighting but the link i posted did
then again in my 2nd or 3rd post i had links to the-glassbox about the japan spotlights


""coat tails"" ?
i have been for the hids from the start all over the other post you state how it would not work

but know you say that you are here to participate in Luke's lighting discussion
and how spotlighting may work
you must see luke's coat tails


I'm ?
""mixing context between two threads and confusing several different aspects of the technology being discussed..""

ok i did use lumens

but how am i

you and areze say the spectral output and intensity is wrong
LFP said you are wrong i think he's right

"context between two threads"

both are about the using of hid and how to light a tank with them

" different aspects of thetechnology being discussed"
it is about hid (not standard Xenon) bulbs
do you know the different aspects?

i would like to see chart /graphs and info
about how the hid (not standard Xenon) bulbs are so wrong for the tank
charts and info need is spectral output , intensity, par ,kelvin rating, the wave length O and lumens per watt for the hid and a mh




plz tell me how me and hummermaniac88
wanting to use hids to light a tank is different then LFP
other then his rig is built and we are are not done


I (BeanAnimal) attempted (as did Luke) to explain why the automotive HID lamps may work out in his setup

how did you try to tell me it wold work when that is what i have said from the start


thanks to all that are on board with the hid lighting

thank you Luke to being the first to do this and help us that would like to do so too

to
BeanAnimal areze I'm done (with you) not the hid lighting



Last edited by JACOXVIII; 01/04/2009 at 11:05 PM.
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Unread 01/04/2009, 10:50 PM   #40
BeanAnimal
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Quote:
Originally posted by JACOXVIII
sorry but man but your a jerk
Personal attacks don't bode well here my friend.

Quote:
in the other thread i have been all for these lights and the way LFP has used them
Nobody said anything to the contrary. There is no point to debate here.

Quote:
your very first post over there that you posted in regards to hummermaniac88 wanting to use these hid bulbs is below

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
Your setup will work for a Fish Only tank, but will not suffice for a Reef Tank. The spectral output and intensity will not be correct.


or did you forget?
CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT! My remarks were aimed at hummermaniacs proposed use of the lights. Please, I beg you, stop taking remarks out of context. hummermaniacs did not propose "spotlight" style lighting with high intensity LED supplementation. My remarks in BOTH threads have been very clear, please keep them in context.

You are confusing "Coat Tails" with "Bandwagon", sir. The meaning was that you clearly didn't grasp the topic you were trying to argue and instead were simply recasting the informed remarks (out of context) that others made. Again, a problem with context.

As for the rest of your post, I am not going to bother. You are chasing your tail in circles trying to carry on a pointless fight. Please stop trying so hard to inflame people. I have been as kind as possible, but the continued lack of context to this discussion is becoming a distraction to those who are here to discuss Luke's project.

If you have not figured it out yet, Luke is my friend and I support his DIY efforts no matter what the outcome is. This particular project does not suit my personal aesthetic tastes, but it does suit his. Did you take a moment to notice that I took the time to help explain the methodology to those who had doubts about the efficiency? I am very interested in watching the long term results. Please, lets move forward.


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Unread 01/05/2009, 12:46 AM   #41
liveforphysics
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I can't be upset with you guys, because areze also lured me into lousing up my own thread with needless banter.

This is part of the reason I'm choosing to feature the things I build off-site in a respectful atmosphere.

I fully appreciate and will answer questions about wanting to understand theory of operation. These things contribute to learning and advancing the hobby.

I spent a full hour of my time yesterday responding to foolishness from areze. I often work 12-16hr days, and I only have a couple of hours of personal time in a day. I'm not going to spend it defending the existence of my project or my testing. Anyone who doesn't want to believe it's possible or believe Xenon is efficient, or believe it can produce photosynthetic spectra is welcome to believe that way. I have too many other projects that need my time to spend it in back and forth banter trying to convince anyone of anything.

If you don't like it, don't trust it, don't want it, don't want to see it, are convinced that only lots of 250-400w MH bulbs can light a reef, then simply stop viewing the thread please.


Bean- "Luke is my friend and I support his DIY efforts no matter what the outcome is."

You brought a big smile to my face. The feeling is mutual.

Whenever trying new things, it's a risk of an investment in time and money, and for things like this, the biggest risk is in the health of my corals. So far I'm observing the normal reactions to lighting that I saw with my previous lighting. If I begin to see my corals take a turn for the worse, I do have my previous lighting on hand to throw back over the tank and hopefully recover.

Things are looking healthy and promising so far, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

For everyone who had nice things to say, thank you, I appreciate your kindness.

Best Wishes,
-Luke


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Unread 01/05/2009, 12:48 AM   #42
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Top down shot just for fun




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Unread 01/05/2009, 01:50 AM   #43
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wow that looks awesome. I see possibilities for supplemental lighting even for people who have MH lights.


I dont understand why you two are fighting, Bean and Jaco
I just read the thread for the first time and Jaco was merely stating the fact that there was a confusion about the bulb technology being discussed. No need to let the confusion carry on, seems everybody is on the same side here

Lets just support Luke in this awesome experiment and await the next installment with more PAR numbers oh and more pics would be sweet too


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Unread 01/05/2009, 02:05 AM   #44
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Luke I just read that Dana Riddle article yesterday and have been pondering the red issue too.

I want more data on the red subject It seems alot of people have had good results when adding the ATI procolor bulb to their T5 setups, which is a heavily red bulb. I wonder if in the experiment on red bleaching events if the red light was the only light or just a supplemental light?

"that corals exposed for more than 60 days to light composed of mostly the red portion of the spectrum resulted in corals that "

that makes me think the red lighting was the main lighting and not a supplemental light. so I wonder how harmful a small red peak in a bulb with other spectrums would be.


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Unread 01/05/2009, 10:41 AM   #45
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I do have to echo the concerns on replacing the HID bulbs and the cost associated. My buddy (who we put an HID kit in his car), had to replace bulbs almost yearly as they would burn out on his RSX. If you have to replace all those bulbs every year, your talking some MAJOR replacment cost.

I lOVE the idea, but economically, im just not sure its worth it. I think I would rather see a all LED unit instead, at least those will last.....


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Unread 01/05/2009, 10:42 AM   #46
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How long has this project been running on your tank? I like the idea, and might want to use a few spots on some tanks, that want shimmer with t-5's. Can't wait for the Par readings. this application could also work very well for pico, nano, and a qt sps tank.

Keep up the good work!


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Unread 01/05/2009, 12:09 PM   #47
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Luke already said he calculated the bulb cost and for him its worth it. If you read the glassbox stuff its in there and this thread.


Quote:
To re-lamp my previous setup required 12x T5 bulbs and 4x MH bulbs. I would normally spend about $500 yearly to re-lamp. To completely re-lamp my current setup I will spend around $200.
I'm glad somebody is out there experimenting all the crazy stuff that I wish I could try but haven't the engineering skills or the free time Sounds like he doesn't have much free time either with all this going on.


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Unread 01/05/2009, 04:05 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by ReefEnabler
Luke already said he calculated the bulb cost and for him its worth it. If you read the glassbox stuff its in there and this thread.




I'm glad somebody is out there experimenting all the crazy stuff that I wish I could try but haven't the engineering skills or the free time Sounds like he doesn't have much free time either with all this going on.
If that is the case then thats awesome... I def think its a cool idea... I just remember those bulbs being alot more expensive than his seem to be. Perhaps hes getting them at a big discount to what my buddy was paying for his HIDs?? Heck from what I recall his kit for this RSX was ~$300 (ballast + bulbs), and the replacement bulbs were ~$90/ea.


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Unread 01/05/2009, 07:25 PM   #49
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Thanks for sharing your experiment, I was very pleased to read about it on Glass Box as well as here. It was really interesting to get some perspective on the HID lighting, as I have been curious about it since noticing some commercial options appearing on the market.


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Unread 01/05/2009, 07:45 PM   #50
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I don't understand why everyone is hating on a out of the box idea... I bet the same responses were thrown around went LEDs were first experimented...


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