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Old 03/02/2003, 09:26 AM   #1
kevin_kramer
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Zoanthids are they toxic?

Zoanthids are they toxic? I have to say YES! Yesterday I was getting ready for the Ohio frag swap. I was working over a rubbermade tub and my dog was sitting next to me as she always did. I got up to get some more gumbands to close the bags and when I returned she had her head in the tub. I thought nothing about it. Dogs always stick their heads in things. 12:30

I went to the frag swap and was having a really good time. An I got a call on my cell phone. My wife called to tell me that the dog was sick. 2:00

I hung around for a bit after I talked to my wife. Dogs get sick all of the time (right)?

She called again told me to come home. 3:00

I came home and the dog greeted me at the door but she was very lethargic. My wife told me to take the dog to the vet. 4:30

I took her to the vet. At this point I had to carry her from my truck. I talked to the vet and I had no idea of what could be the problem. He ran some tests on her blood and from the tests he said that it looked like she had ingested some sort of toxin. A bell went off in my head!! She had her head in my tub.

I got on my cell and had a friend do some searches about Zoanthids. We found Zoanthids carry one of the most powerful toxins in the world. The toxin is called Palytoxin. I read the symptoms and wow a direct match. Did a search for a cure only to find out that there is no antitoxin.

My dog passed away at 12:15am.

I normaly would not post any thing like this or make a post this long but I wanted everyone to know that Zoanthids are very toxic. Watch when your children and pets around your tanks. I am including a list of links to the research that we did last night. I knew that there are Zoanthids were toxic but not to this level.

http://www.asanltr.com/newsletter/02...eurotoxins.htm

http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/Palytoxin.html





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Old 03/02/2003, 10:38 AM   #2
Harpo
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Kevin

As a fellow dog lover (and veterinarian) I am so very sorry to hear of your loss.

I know sharing your loss must have been very painful but by warning other pet lovers(and parents!) a little bit of good will have come from her death.

Mark


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Old 03/02/2003, 10:49 AM   #3
gregt
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I'm very sorry to hear of your loss.

Thanks for using it to remind / inform us of the dangers of some of the creatures we keep.


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Old 03/02/2003, 11:00 AM   #4
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Kevin,
Sorry to hear of your loss. Did you come across in your searching how we can be infected? Do you have to ingest it or if you have a cut can it get into your blood stream that way?
This has got me a little worried
Erik


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Old 03/02/2003, 11:08 AM   #5
johnrags1234
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This is terrible. I am etremely sorry to hear of this.

The toxin they carry is a neuro toxin and is very very dangerous. It is best to use gloves when working around the and wash you hands with anti bacterial soap. n the book aquarium Corals (bourneman) There is very ood info regarding there toxins.

I feel for you.
J


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Old 03/02/2003, 11:12 AM   #6
Clyde
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i will be flat out candid here.

ooh ****, I feel bad, this is prolly the worse news I've read here, than tanks crashing etc, I hope everything will be okay with your family, I know how it is to lose a loved pet.

Everytime I see a zoonathid, you will be in my thoughts, and your cute dog.


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Old 03/02/2003, 11:13 AM   #7
Wee Man
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oh man

i have two dogs (yorkies) i cant imagine wut would happen to them if they got a hold of one of those, so thanks i kknow now to tank more precautions when introducing zoanthids in my tank, im very sorry about ur loss.


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Old 03/02/2003, 11:16 AM   #8
musicsmaker
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Kevin, I don't even know what to say. I hate to hear about your dog. I knew about zoos being toxic, and even tell others to be carefull. But, like many others, I never new they were THAT bad.

This thread, or one like it, should be a stickey forever.


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Old 03/02/2003, 11:18 AM   #9
gregt
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I just want to point out that they are also toxic to humans. Children particularly would be at risk.


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Old 03/02/2003, 11:31 AM   #10
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Sorry about your pooch! I know I've gotten some terrible rashes when my arms are in the tank. I thought it was my Xenia, but I might have to rethink that!


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Old 03/02/2003, 11:32 AM   #11
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Oh gosh, Im so sorry to hear of your dog.
But thank you very much for sharing that with us.


And now it has me paranoid of wanting to keep zoo's.


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Old 03/02/2003, 11:36 AM   #12
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Awful news Kevin. I am so sorry. Thanks for taking the time out to share what you've learned with the rest of us. I knew that zooanthids had toxins but as others have said, I didn't realize quite how dangerous they can be. Having kids and pets in the house, I'm always going to look at zooanthids in a different light now. God Bless.

Tom


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Old 03/02/2003, 11:46 AM   #13
musicsmaker
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Wow, I was just reading through the link you gave us about toxins. It says there that Palytoxin is the #1 most toxic natural substance known to man. 4 micrograms will kill a man. Can you even see such a small amount?


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Old 03/02/2003, 11:47 AM   #14
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Bummer I wonder how much longer LFS's will be selling these for without a warning to the consumer at least. I think we need to find out more info regarding the concentrations required to produce a lethal dosage. Any idea how many your dog ate? This kinda remids me of that one time in college when the LFS sold a lionfish to a 13 year old kid. Sometimes i feel that we need to put age restrictions on livestock. This would be a classic example.


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Old 03/02/2003, 12:25 PM   #15
kevin_kramer
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I want to thank everyone the messages of sympathy. The main reason that I posted was I like many others don't think twice about letting our childern help with tank chores. My 5 year old likes to help me with the chores.

I just did not think that a coral could be that deadly. I have never wore gloves when working in the tanks. I am going to order some tomorrow. My children can look into the tank but not help me anymore. I am going to do my mantenance after bedtime and close the door to the tank room.

eriksmacks
From what I have read it can get into your system through cuts in the skin and injestion. I am sure that there are more experts on this board that have know more than I do.

JohnL
Thank you for making this a sticky It would be lost by now with all of the poll bumping.


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Old 03/02/2003, 12:27 PM   #16
Rock Anemone
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I am so sorry about what happened...

Rock Anemone


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Old 03/02/2003, 01:13 PM   #17
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My sincere condolences..
I knew they where bad..but not that bad. I have zoos and need to work with them next weekend...I think of the times I worked around them and then smoked a cigarette. Thank you for getting the word out on the dangers.


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Old 03/02/2003, 01:50 PM   #18
holeinone1972
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Terrible news. I am so sorry to hear such gastly news.

Now I do alot of Zoo propagating, and I tell folks that I see at my place about the Palytoxins. BE CAREFULL.

Please wear gloves when dealing with Zoanthids, and if you go bare handed PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE wash your hands very well afterwards.

Having a 5 month old baby, I cannot tell how paraniod, I am about washing my hands well, after they are in the tank no matter what I am doing.

This is a very freak accident, just keep your hands away from your eyes, and mouth when working on the tank.

Of course if you have an open cut, it is a pretty bad idea to put your hands in the tank.

A cheap pair of latex gloves could save your life.

Once again, terribly sorry to hear about your loss.

Rob

ps The shame of it is there are lots of things in our tanks that can cause us pain, illness or even death besides Zoanthids, so BE CAREFULL.


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Old 03/02/2003, 02:17 PM   #19
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Sorry to hear about your dog,I have several pets and I hope to never be in your shoes.

This was in the article from the above posted link.
Its pretty scary when you think about it!
The crude ethanol extracts of the Palythoa toxica proved to be so toxic that an accurate LD50 was difficult to determine. More recently, the toxicity has been determined to be 50-100 ng/kg i.p. in mice. The compound is an intense vasoconstrictor; in dogs, it causes death within 5 min at 60 ng/kg. By extrapolation, a toxic dose in a human would be about 4 micrograms


1 microgram (mcg/µg) = 0.001 milligram (mg)

1 microgram (mcg/µg) = 0.000001 gram (g)



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Old 03/02/2003, 02:45 PM   #20
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Kevin,

My condolences on your loss I had no idea that we had toxins of that magnitude in our tanks. I will certainly be more careful from now on. I have a large container of medical grade latex gloves in my "fish stuff", but I *never* use them when working in the tank. That is certainly going to change after reading your sad story.

I'm so very sorry about your pooch,

Rob


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Old 03/02/2003, 03:34 PM   #21
KorbinDallas
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I can't believe nobody asked what kind of zoanthids killed your dog?! WHat color where they? The article says that some carry the toxin and some don't, but doesn't say which ones are toxic. Am I missing something here? Seems like this would be some very important information.

I'm especially concerned because last night I was removing some zoanthids from a rock with some tweezers and one of them "popped" and squirted me in the face. Mostly on my chin, and maybe my neck. Needless to say, I washed my face for a long long time afterward. The zoos were pink with some green on the tentacles. WHat color were yours?! Please don't keep us in the dark.


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Old 03/02/2003, 03:38 PM   #22
gregt
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Quote:
Seems like this would be some very important information
I'm not sure why it's important at all. Any of them should be considered dangerous and treated as such.


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Old 03/02/2003, 03:40 PM   #23
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I think it is better safe than sorry. All zoos should be treated like they are toxic.


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Old 03/02/2003, 03:58 PM   #24
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Sorry to here about your dog.

Excuse my ignorance but I'm new to corals and just purchased this and didn't know if this was a Zoanthid and if it was Toxic or not.


http://www.87gn.com/images/reef/fors...een_button.jpg

Thanks For Your Help.


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Old 03/02/2003, 03:59 PM   #25
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See musicmakers post above. Always assume they are highly toxic and act accordingly.


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