Cleaner wrasse spawn

["Umm, fish?"]

This is the second night in a row that I've seen them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMmk9XKLtgk

Thanks for looking!

[SDguy]

Very neat!

How did you pair yours? I tried, and they hated each other

["Umm, fish?"]

Thanks, Peter! They were in a tank at the LFS separated by a drilled acrylic partition. They kept coming back to each other without really any aggression or posturing through the divide. What clinched it for me was that one of them was noticeably smaller than the other. I think all wrasses are protogynous hermaphrodites so size is a big deal, socially.

So, if you go out and get a really small one, maybe....

[SDguy]

Originally posted by "Umm, fish?"
Thanks, Peter! They were in a tank at the LFS separated by a drilled acrylic partition. They kept coming back to each other without really any aggression or posturing through the divide. What clinched it for me was that one of them was noticeably smaller than the other. I think all wrasses are protogynous hermaphrodites so size is a big deal, socially.

So, if you go out and get a really small one, maybe....

Yeah, that was my thinking too. The small one chased the larger one out of the tank into the overflow

They now reside in separate systems.

["Umm, fish?"]

It's always the small, spunky ones that are the trouble. I have a dog that's the same way.

[JHemdal]

Did you collect any eggs from them? We had a pair cleaners that would spawn every day at around 4pm in a 3.5 foot deep tank. We got eggs, but never tried to hatch them.
I think that if your tank was deeper, you'd see the final spawning event isn't quite as frenetic as you see in the video. I think what is happening is they are running out of room when they hit the surface. We have some boarfish, Capros aper, and when they spawn, a similar thing happens, the male and female rise up in the four foot deep tank, and then they sort of spin around at the surface and then spawn. You can easily imagine that if the tank was another four feet deeper, they would be able to properly finish.

Jay

["Umm, fish?"]

I'm kind of surprised that the cleaners spawn so early. Mine are going at about 3 hours before sunset. (One of the lights is off in the video because I'm doing rolling blackouts 'til I get some heat issues solved.)

I know that Iris (she of the tomentosus filefish fame) tried with cleaners but didn't have luck getting eggs to hatch. Maybe infertile eggs because of too little water column. I sounds like they don't produce many eggs at a time and the eggs are tiny so not a lot to work with. Here's her page: http://www.meerwasserlarven.de/fisch...iatus_engl.htm

I'm currently trying to work with sixline wrasses but I haven't seen any courtship yet. The fish that I got to fill the female role was _tiny_ when I got her, though, so she might not have matured enough yet. I haven't seen any aggression between the two fish.

Here's the tank I made to try to deal with the water column height issue (right out of Wittenrich's book):



The amazing thing to me is that it is still holding water.

["Umm, fish?"]

Sorry. Weird double post from earlier.

[kb27973]

Cool Andy! If you don't get your six-lines to pair mine are still waiting for you to take some of their offspring to a better place than Anthias bellies.

Ken

["Umm, fish?"]

Thanks, Ken! I will take you up on that. I'm still working on getting the cultures going--work's getting a little nuts--but I haven't forgotten you.

["Umm, fish?"]

Still photos of the wrasse courtship from tonight. That's three nights in a row that I've seen.





This last one was just a few seconds before they took off:

[Grunt]

I thought collecting my anthias eggs were difficult...this is about on their level. My problem is after they would release it was like ringing the dinner the bell for the rest of the tank and they all came running, including the pair that was spawning.

My best advice is be ready when they go

How are your banngai's doing btw Andy?

["Umm, fish?"]

Yeah, maybe I shouldn't have added those chromis to the tank. What steps did you take? Did you turn off the pumps? How well did the anthias eggs float? Were they pretty neutrally bouyant or did they head right to the top?

The Banggais are doing okay. My little F1 male is holding again. He swallowed the last round, but he looks pretty determined this time. Kathy sent me seven more little juveniles a week or so ago, two older that look like they might pair up and five _tiny_ ones. One of the tiny ones didn't make it, but the other four look like they've doubled in size since then.

[JHemdal]

Andy,

We collected our eggs at the tank's surface using a container within seconds of the spawning. You need to try to get some of the sperm cloud along with the eggs, and then let it sit in the container for 30 minutes or so. IMO, handling the eggs too soon causes poor fertilization rates, perhaps the sperm gets brushed off before it can implant, I don't know....

Page 130 of my Advanced Marine Aq. Techniques book has a (poor) photo of one of the cleaner wrasse eggs we collected. It looks like the egg was fertile, but that it died at the blastomere stage.


Jay

[Grunt]

I basically sat watching the entire time, took a thousand (no lie) blurry pictures....and had collecting vessels ready. He would swoop under her and bring her toward the surface, then a mad dash like that. I attempted to collect the mass before it dispersed and before the other fish rushed in to collect too.

I turned off the return pump. I left one pump on because they wouldnt come out without it on.

The first few attemtpts the pumps were left on before, bc i didnt realize what was happening. Eggs went everywhere.

There was one day I only collected ONE egg.....

check mofib for my log

lost pair in my magnifica crash few weeks ago along with spotted mandarin pair

["Umm, fish?"]

Jay--Thanks! I'd forgotten you had that picture in there. Boy, that's tiny. That shot is before the first cell division? Or maybe at the two cell stage? It's hard to see.

Can I ask a completely off-topic question? In table 12 on the same page, you state that aquarists have spawned the yellow tang in captivity. That was at zoos in big tanks, yes? Not really any hobbyists in home tanks, right? Joe came and showed my club video of his tangs spawning in the 20,000 gal. tank this year. Very cool! I was surprised at how low the actual spawning ascent really was, just a foot or so. It didn't look undoable for a larger home tank, especially if you had younger and smaller tangs. Now raising them would be something else....

Grunt--I'm sorry to hear about your losses. Thanks for the information, though. I'll go check out your information. I'm not posting over there much at the moment, though.

[Grunt]

Neither am I andy....

mostly been talking to people about mandarins

[Matt_Wandell]

Originally posted by JHemdal
Did you collect any eggs from them? We had a pair cleaners that would spawn every day at around 4pm in a 3.5 foot deep tank. We got eggs, but never tried to hatch them.
I think that if your tank was deeper, you'd see the final spawning event isn't quite as frenetic as you see in the video. I think what is happening is they are running out of room when they hit the surface. We have some boarfish, Capros aper, and when they spawn, a similar thing happens, the male and female rise up in the four foot deep tank, and then they sort of spin around at the surface and then spawn. You can easily imagine that if the tank was another four feet deeper, they would be able to properly finish.

Jay

Hey Jay and Andy,

We had a pair that would consistently spawn in our 20,000 g reef tank, at 19 feet tall it was plenty of space for them to do their thing. The few times I observed it were at their "dusk", and they would begin a few feet off the bottom and use a good 4-6 feet to swim upwards quickly and circle each other to spawn. You guys must be quick to catch the eggs, they all just got eaten in seconds in our tank.

These guys are super territorial even in our 200k gallon tank, there are 2 or 3 pairs IIRC and they do not tolerate the sight of each other even over long distances. It is amazing you were able to pair these two and have them do so well!

Best,
Matt

[JHemdal]

Andy,

Most of that list came from "The Breeder's Registry", but I don't know exactly where the yellow tang reference came from. I doubt that it was Atlantis, because that section of the book was written before I had heard about Joe's fish. Maybe I just pulled it out of...thin air?
Actually, I believe the caption for table 12 should have read, "species reported to have been spawned, but not raised to juvenile stage" - the obvious exception would be the mandarinfish (now).

Jay

["Umm, fish?"]

Sigh. Sorry y'all. I saw that you posted earlier, but some weeks this working thing has its drawbacks. I'm going to be pretty remote for the next week or so.

Matt--Thanks for the input. I've seen pictures of that 20 foot tall aquarium so I can imagine they'd have plenty of room. Did you ever figure out lighting that can get to animals on the bottom?

The wrasses play some chase games but they don't seem very serious. I've seen nothing I'd call real aggression between them. They mostly just go about their own business until the evening. It's a pretty long tank but they don't spend the day at opposite ends or anything.

Jay--I think at least three of the cardinals (Banggais, PJs, and threadfins?), pygmy angels (almost all of the Centropyge, plus at least one Genicanthus), and damsels (someone last year found an easy one as I recall, plus Luis has done at least one of the Chrysiptera) have been done, too. Someone at MOFIB was playing with some Trigger eggs last I saw, but I've heard no further details.

But, I've just always been interested in the smaller tangs but there's just not a whole lot of information--I haven't even found much in the way of reproductive studies in the wild except what's in Thresher--so I was interested to see if you knew of a source I hadn't heard of. Thanks for the info!

As an update, I tried to collect eggs last night, but no dice. Turning off the upper closed-loop seemed to throw them off somewhat and they gave me several false ascents before they finally took off. Interestingly, their final ascent was kind of weird, too. With the pump off, they made the ascent at more of an angle and finished below the level of the surface. Maybe that'll help with fertilization.

["Umm, fish?"]

Either they didn't spawn tonight or I missed it. So, at least four days in a row.

It may have something to do with the fact that I've finally solve my heat issues (!!!) and the tank temp is down by a couple of degrees.

[michealprater]

In 12 years I have never been able to keep a cleaner alive. I have watch 3 die.... and you have them spawning! Whats the secret???

["Umm, fish?"]

Well, I don't know. They eat like pigs and have since I got them. I haven't done anything special for them other than the fact that I feed the tank a lot. The filefish I have act like specialized feeders and take a lot of effort, but these have been easy so far.

[michealprater]

The last one I tried, ate like a pig for 3 days. Everything I put in the tank. I was like "YES! a good one!". Then he developed a white spot on his side and died the next day.

["Umm, fish?"]

That sounds like disease more than a food issue. Sorry....


-----------------------


Another busy night around here last night. First off, we have a long cleaner wrasse spawning video. I wanted to show you some of the courtship leading up to the actual spawning. The spawning ascent occurs right at the end of the video. Please note that they seem to be getting more used to the height of the water column as they don't break the water's surface. Hopefully that'll mean a better chance of fertilized eggs, if I ever manage to catch any.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jCq4_VspxA

Also up this evening were the filefish. Sorry about the quality of the video, it's just a webcam. Unfortunately, the actual spawning event happened mostly behind a rock tonight (you can still see some of the male's snout). But I wanted to show some of the important aspects of pre-spawning courtship behavior. So, you'll see the female pacing the tank, dorsal spine erect. She stops occasionally to nip at likely patches of algae ("thrust"). Their eggs are the green of algae, so they camouflage really well. You'll also see the male follow the female in her search for a likely spot, sometimes displaying with quick spreads of his caudal fin and other fins ("spread," if he combines with a headstand, "flutter dive"), sometimes nudging her abdomen with his snout, and sometimes nuzzling with his snout up under her snout and it looks like he vocalizes to her ("nuzzle"). After the spawn and after a short pause, the male's coloration changes and he engages in a whirling, crazy display with head stands, fin spreads, and flickering ventral flap ("flutter dive"). The male engages in flutter dives often during the day, but not usually with as much verve as after a spawn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhyBB7ggGkk

The quoted terminology in parentheses above come from:

Barlow, George W. 1987. "Spawning, eggs and larvae of the longnose filefish Oxymonacanthus longirostris, a monogamous coralivore." Environmental Biology of Fishes. Vol. 20, no. 3, pp. 183-194.