Neptune Apex vs. RKE

[BrianOKC]

Like the title says what benefits or advantages does the RKE have compared to the Apex Neptune controller? Why should I buy the RKE over the Apex?

[andywe]

Well for one thing, feature set. The RKE is about to release a module that can montior Salinity, as well as their 2 coket hgh poer module (the DC1) which gives you the advantage of using virtual sockets for some really cool stacked programming. Also, when compared to a DC-8, 2 PC4 modules give you 4 mechanical switched sockets and 4 solid state. that's twice the amout of mechanical relay controlled sockets that can handle up to 8 amps each socket (not exceeding overall 15 amps per strip), and allow for more poor power factor item distribution.

I also like the fact that the RKE is based off newer and imo more extensible technology. Neptune, while they do make a fine controller, put window dressing on older technology. I also feel the RKE modules such as the MLC give more bang for the buck. The Moon Light Controller fully populated with 6 LED pods is still under a hundred bucks. If you have a smaller tank, the MLC already comes with 2 pods for 70 bucks, and they look great!

Service has also been great! Whenever I had a question I could go to the forums or call and I got answers. The systems are stable and work for me.

When you add up the bang for buck plus technology advantages, to me the RKE is the way to go and why I did choose it for my main tank, and 3 RKL Packages for my Nano's..

[SaltyMember]

Regarding the RKE, I was very interested in the RKE but since I never had a controller I decided to go with the RKL unit first. It is great that they have an upgrade option from the Lite unit to the RKE while being able to use the same equipment. That was a primary selling point for me. The Apex looks like a great unit but I think DA had outdone itself with the design and implementation of the RKL and RKE. I see myself upgrading to the RKE within the next year.

[digitalaquatics.com]

Well you're clearly opening up a can of worms here.

You won’t hear us bad mouth our competitors. We all have different ways of doing things. I will say that the RKE was the first controller to do it the way we do and the fact that others are following speaks volumes about not only our design but our other stylistic choices. We’ve taken a complete modular approach with our system, meaning every module is independent.

Here are a few things that we feel makes DA stand out in a crowd.

1) Service/support: We've had a number of customers that have damaged modules from water. In our setup, you can replace that one part without taking down the system. Other controllers are only partially modular and this poses problems.

On the topic of support, we have an extremely comprehensive support forum (www.forum.digitalaquatics.com) where users can help and share info in a well structured and meaningful way – it's truly a community here at DA.

2) If there's ever a new module upgrade (hardware) done and you want it, the rest of your system is not lost. This saves you a lot of money in the long run! You can upgrade that one component and everything else stays in place. - This is also the case for the head-unit of the system.

3) Styling: This is one point where you'll see me snap back just a bit. The RKE was clearly the template for other controllers. The countless hours of work we put into this unit has set the bar for others and is being copied by a number of people. We're used to that at DA. We've been setting the standard for industrial design from the start!

4) Responsibility: On the topic of more... We would NEVER encourage anyone to plug in thousands of items to a single controller. If that controller goes down there are only so many things or fail-safes that you can put in place. When setting up that level of system, redundancy is the key! You can get into a more this and more that but the fact is if you EVER need more than 63 modules connected to your system, call us and we'll GIVE you another head unit at NO cost.

Overall:
You need to make the choice that right for you and your tank! You’ll find customers on both sides that will defend their choices to the end and others that will tell you it was the worst mistake they’ve made. We have customers that have come this way cursing the competition and I’m sure (although I’d like to think not, ) that a customer or two has gone in the other direction. My biggest concern is this; I would be a bit wary when a company’s representative gets online and makes false and misleading statements about their competitors! It’s sad that this is the environment we’re in these days, but it is. If you have any specific questions we can answer for you please post them. We’ll be more than happy to respond.

Thank you,

Scott
Digital Aquatics

[BrianOKC]

Not wanting to start any drama and I appreciate the no mud slinging approach but if your controller offers something the others don't then it's not bad mouthing IMO.

Here is what was posted on the Neptune forums when the modules are compared so was wanting to get your feed back on what you offer they don't.

There is really no comparison between the two controllers. The RKE is inferior in just about every aspect. Here are some features in which the Apex system is better:

Looks better
Very attractive mechanical design
High Quality Display with excellent clarity/contrast.
- Costs less.
- Easy to use configuration wizards.
- Most expandable controller - up to 240 modules, thousands of outlets, hundreds of probes.
- backwards compatible with older AquaController accessories.
- More features - Some include:
more flexible/sophisticate configuration
season lighting control
season temperature control
- Integrated Ethernet (Optional $$$ on RKE)
- Monitoring & Control & configuration on the webserver.
- Only controller with web browser based configuration.
- XML support
- multiple head unit displays - not possible on RKE
- multiple sound alarms.
- Includes 6 digital inputs vs 2 on RKE.
- Galvanic Isolation on probes result in accurate readings. RKE has no isolation and has major interference issues.
- Includes built-in variable speed pump control. Not possible on RKE
- Includes built-in 0-10V light dimming. Extra on RKE
- Can name outlets, and modules - not possible on RKE
- ORP input is modal - can be ORP or pH input on Apex - not possible on RKE
- Default outlet state on Apex. On competition of a communication error occurs all outlets
just shut off - RKE just shuts everything off
- State of the Art 32 bit processor - not an 8 bit slow processor like RKE.
- 5 times faster than competitor's controllers
- 16 times more code space - much more expandable for future enhancements.
Not code space limited like the RKE
- 16 times more storage space for datalogs than the RKE.
- Bus interconnect can be starred or daisy chain configuration.
- Has Power failure detection/alarms/control - not possible on RKE.
- EB8 has power failure detection/alarms/control - not possible on RKE
- Don't have to disassemble controller to perform firmware upgrades
- Reliable/High Quality buttons (No unreliable capsense)
- Lowest cost per outlet control options
- Robust communications protocol Bus Interface with error correcting.
- EnergyBars have built-in AquaBus hubs - On RKE must purchase add-on.
- Built in virtual outlets. On RKE must purchase announced but not shipping PC1.
- Cable lengths can be much longer than RKE.

[andywe]

Wow, and not all of those statements are true...sheesh.

Here is another plus for DA...like I mentioned earlier, they are newer technology. DA does not sell a product and then just forget about expanding it. This year DA is releasing Slainity, virtual channels, 2 options for additional sockets, the hub, the SL2 with Salinity, the SW5, and if they keep to their word, PC based Reef software that is always free, and not an up charge. This software has already been in existing for the RK2 and is scheduled for the RKL/RKE for Q4 this year.

[digitalaquatics.com]

First, most what is listed as "not possible" is quite misleading and clearly not ethical... Anything is possible, for one reason or another it hasn't been implemented as of yet. But again I'm going to leave that alone. We're constantly working on firmware updates and expanding the features of our systems!

As far as what our controller offers that the other doesn't here's a short list. Keep in mind we're not a one man show here. We have a full engineering staff, all of which are hobbyist as well. We put countless hours into design and the decision making process to offer the most user-friendly controller!

1) Complete flexibility with a true modular design
2) A more customer budget friendly upgrade path as new items are released
3) Original design/styling for better presentation and ease of use
4) Cost effective expansion
5) Flexible installation - put modules where YOU want not where you have to
6) Correction - The RKE does have isolated ports on the RKM-SL2 When one unit is in use that is not needed. When two pH probes are desired for example, we suggest ordering the RKM-SL2 to compliment the RKM-SL1. (This module will be out in couple weeks.)
7) Our RKM-PC4 distributes 15amp of power over four outlets where other 8 outlet options cannot truly control higher demands without added hardware.
8) True menu driven programming on the head unit
9) Software, we've announced that just as the last version, myReef 2.0 will be free in it's fullest version, as well as offer many never seen before features that again will set the standard in the area of controller software.
10) For all commodity type items such as probes, we work hard to keep the cost down without sacrificing quality! You also need to look at what the long term cost of a unit is not just the up front cost. People often overlook that important detail!


We also feel it's important to ask what the company offer that the other doesn't!

1) Dedicated support forum
2) Customer focused warranty and support program
3) Non-warranty replacement discounts for damage that is not covered under warranty
4) Digital Aquatics gives back to the community by way of local clubs, sponsorships, and donations.

At the end of the day either controller will monitor and control about every aspect of your tank that's possible. We just chose to operate in a different way than most!

Scott
DA

[NeveSSL]

To be honest, I think Kurt's response to the question as compared to Scott speaks more than volumes, let alone that Kurt sat on his laurels until the RKE came out, IMO. Not to mention he styled his controller VERY much like the RKE.

Not to mention how misleading that is. I'm truly shocked. For example, he calls an 8-bit processor slow, but how many bits a processor processes has NOTHING to do with the speed! That's just grasping at straws, IMO.

Wow... just wow...

Brandon

[digitalaquatics.com]

This back and forth is about the worst I’ve ever seen here on RC, all that can indicate to me is we’ve done something right! (I think the Chevy vs Ford guys have even been beet out.) LOL…

Just to set the record straight. The RKE has more than enough memory, speed, and ability to handle the most demanding set up! Period! If you think that the 63 modules isn’t enough expandability please contact us and let us know, we’ll make accommodations for you!

In response to the general features... We have an exciting update, that’s been in the works for sometime, coming in the next several months. We also have a long list of feature updates that are (and were,) in place for implementation well before any other controllers came out. The issue is we have a much more expansive product line and a broader customer base to consider when doing updates. This can cause some delays and shifting of priorities for sure!

Also, our free software package myReef that’s been mentioned will be hands down a superior product to any other controller’s software package free OR purchased! I can tell you now that’s NOT a small undertaking for a company but it’s something we believe in!

Anyway, keep your eyes open for new announcements, updates and more from DA over the next four months! We’ll have a number of new modules shipping here soon. We’ll have feature announcements and more! We’re planning on ringing in the New Year in style!

Scott
DA

[HeneryH]

Originally posted by digitalaquatics.com
This back and forth is about the worst I’ve ever seen here on RC,

I don't know. A little debate is a good thing to me and sponsors boasting a bit in their sponsor fourum should be expected to some degree. I really don't think things are that contentious at all.

As far as future products and other forward looking statements go, I have learned the hard way that product announcements are only worth the bits they are printed on. Both companies have products in the pipeline to enhance their platforms. Neptune has conductivity probes and a new free version of AquaNotes floated as in the pipeline. The comparision of futures could be never ending.

[andywe]

Henry..debate is a good thing..however I have read Curt's responses and if your going to debate, be factual.

[digitalaquatics.com]

+1 to both of you...

I can tell you that if we publicly announce a product we are releasing it! Sure deadline can slip as with the SL2, but if it's posted it's happening!

Scott
DA

[NeveSSL]

Originally posted by digitalaquatics.com
...
Just to set the record straight. The RKE has more than enough memory, speed, and ability to handle the most demanding set up! Period! If you think that the 63 modules isn’t enough expandability please contact us and let us know, we’ll make accommodations for you!

In response to the general features... We have an exciting update, that’s been in the works for sometime, coming in the next several months. We also have a long list of feature updates that are (and were,) in place for implementation well before any other controllers came out. The issue is we have a much more expansive product line and a broader customer base to consider when doing updates. This can cause some delays and shifting of priorities for sure!

Also, our free software package myReef that’s been mentioned will be hands down a superior product to any other controller’s software package free OR purchased! I can tell you now that’s NOT a small undertaking for a company but it’s something we believe in!

Anyway, keep your eyes open for new announcements, updates and more from DA over the next four months! We’ll have a number of new modules shipping here soon. We’ll have feature announcements and more! We’re planning on ringing in the New Year in style!

Scott
DA

This is by and large why I chose an RKE... enthusiastic and thorough support and development! I can't wait for myReef! Not to mention the other things I don't even know I want yet.

Brandon

[kenargo]

What bums me out is that I asked a few questions about what the RKE can do (based on some reading here) and what I got from the RKE respondents is crickets (solence), rather the respondents were too busy comparing the color of plastic or making broad declarative unsubstantiated statements.

So maybe if I come over here I will learn the answer to my questions; this was my post:

I will preface with the fact that my findings are NOT based on owning an RKE but reading through the manual and posts/replies...

RKE - has a color display (Apex is B/W) though both support contrast. (I later learned this is not true but rather it is a mono screen with back-color LEDs).

Home screens - The Apex has 4 separate screens, each configurable to what is displayed (time, date, probes (up to 4) per screen and outlets (up to 8 per screen, up to 2 lines worth). The RKE solves the issue in a slightly different manner by supporting scrolling (something they refer to as 'Quick Data'#

Both have 4 feed cycles #RKE calls them Standby and is limited to a max of 60 minutes - 1 sec#, Apex limits to 999 minutes.

RKE manual appears to support brightness for the lunar modules #MLC or ALM#, the Apex tracks lunar cycles through season table (which can be modified) but does not support directly user controlled brightness

I found that the RKE does not appear to have an equivalent to Max Change (to control the amount of time a device remains in a set state after power fail or being turned on/off). In a recent thread the reply suggests that there is a fixed time of 15 minutes (using a light programming mode).

One item I was unable to find in the RKE what the ability to have outlets revert to a pre-programmed value when communications to the base unit are lost. The Apex can be programmed to turn outlets on/off when communications to the base are lost.

I was also unable to locate indications that the RKE supports power loss scenarios as the Apex can. The Apex can be programmed to detect power out for an individual EB8 or a general power fail (if the base unit is powered by a battery or UPS).

Web access to the RKE doesn't appear to be as rich as for the Apex. You need the optional module #RKM-NET# which appears to give you some net facilities #email, status, log and graph# but I was unable to locate information that indicated support for control or programming of the connected devices as the Apex has.

They both appear to be quite suitable for the advanced monitor and control facilities of an aquarium of any size though the missing ability to remote access and control the RKE is a major missing feature that surprised me to be missing (though again, not being an owner I was going by manuals and threads so it could be a feature that I missed).

[andywe]

I found that the RKE does not appear to have an equivalent to Max Change (to control the amount of time a device remains in a set state after power fail or being turned on/off). In a recent thread the reply suggests that there is a fixed time of 15 minutes (using a light programming mode).

You can program a delay for any item to power up from a standby. ALthough it does not allow a static setting for power loss, there is this feature to partly help as well as the light stting for the 15 min delay.

I was also unable to locate indications that the RKE supports power loss scenarios as the Apex can. The Apex can be programmed to detect power out for an individual EB8 or a general power fail (if the base unit is powered by a battery or UPS).

The RKM hub, which can be hooked up to a 9v battery and keep the headunit powered so that when power returns, the system continues on as programmed. I will preface certain types of timers may not fire until their next cycle. No need of bulky or improper battery backup units unless you choose to do that.

Web access to the RKE doesn't appear to be as rich as for the Apex. You need the optional module #RKM-NET# which appears to give you some net facilities #email, status, log and graph# but I was unable to locate information that indicated support for control or programming of the connected devices as the Apex has.

This is a preference, not a necessity. It's not that the RKM-Net isn't capable, it just is not implemented yet and my guess is will be in the not to distant future. To myself and many others, controlling the sockets remotely is not that big of a deal, but more of a coolness factor. The fact is I program the RKE to watch out for scenarios where I may need lights to be shut off, or an ATO pump to be turned off. I want that action immediate and to be notified of the event.

One last thing not on your list I feel is very important is the fact that the RKE is modular, where the Apex is not comparitavely. WIth the RKE< you can palce modules where you want, and not be constrained by the controller as to where things are placed. Further, as features are added and new technologies come about in the future, your existing setup isn't antiquated. If your module with PH, or net goes out..then you do not have to take down your whole system for repair/replacement. Pricing is also more flexable..you pay for the features you want.

[kenargo]

Thanks for replying; it is quite refreshing and great to have my questions answered.

wrt your comments about modular while I agree that the RKE may be more modular I (personally) don't see that as a significant feature and expect that in short time the Apex will have remote probe modules and other base feature options (similar to when RKE was 1st released#. The AC control module is already capable of remote mount #up to 200'# and I like the ability to have an additional display. IMO, wrt modular I prefer to have the common bits built-in #just like in PCs#, but to each their own in this regard as one person will see the benefit another will see something very different but a good point for the reader none the less.

While on the subject, was the remaining of my observation correct?

Does the RKE support a remote display #e.g., if I have a remote probe at a second tank can I have a remote display there?# This is something I like about the Apex and plan to use as I have a number of tanks a distance apart.

And if you don't mind a minor clarification on the power out abilities; you mentioned I could keep the base unit powered off battery, what happens to the AC interfaces? One think I find interesting is the ability to detect a circuit going out in my fish room #I have AC control units on separate circuits# and I plan to take advantage of the ability to detect 1 outlet loosing power to bring online backup systems #e.g., if my main curc pump outlet looses power I plan to increase Tunze circ#?

[andywe]

Does the RKE support a remote display #e.g., if I have a remote probe at a second tank can I have a remote display there?# This is something I like about the Apex and plan to use as I have a number of tanks a distance apart.

Not at this time. I use my web interface more than naything to look at overall statistics, and as it happens I ahve multiple tanks controlled by my RKE. Although a remote pad might be nice, I can also put up an RKL for 99 bucks and includes a PC4 (so basically 9 bucks for a display panel) for PH, ect...if I want. The down side is that part is not tied into my RKE if I do it that way. With the web interface I really don't need multiple displays so tend to not think of this as a big issue. It would be a nice thing for sure, but whether I check the web page or the display, I am not going to test for things the RKE is monitoring for me already.

And if you don't mind a minor clarification on the power out abilities; you mentioned I could keep the base unit powered off battery, what happens to the AC interfaces? One think I find interesting is the ability to detect a circuit going out in my fish room #I have AC control units on separate circuits# and I plan to take advantage of the ability to detect 1 outlet loosing power to bring online backup systems #e.g., if my main curc pump outlet looses power I plan to increase Tunze circ#?

It is subjective. On a singular socket or PC4 strip, if I ahve others on seperate ciruits (which I do), then I can control this same features with an alarm function. If I ahve a return pump on PC4-1, and put a redundant pump on PC4-2 which is on a seperate circuit that PC4-1, I can set an alarm to to turn on the socket on PC4-2 if the status of PC4-1 goes off. Even though the circuit is down on PC4-1, the head unit and bus have power and detect the state of the socket. So I can do backups on a per socket basis with seperate circuits without issue. This lends to my preference (and it is only that) of having a PC4 versus 8 plugs per power module. I can disburs emy load and carry more amperage where needed. Add in the virtual sockets of the PC1, and some really cool prgramming can be done, including power off delays (or you can use the channel to an unused real socket if you want but that to me is a waste of money) in case of outage. The alarm function is used for more than just alarms..it can act as a bridge for functions based off of controller option, or socket state reading to execute timers.

Now, in event of a power outage, the 9v battery (or use a wall plug adapter to a UPS if you want) keeps the bus powered. The head unit does not lose power.

I hope this wasn't too confusing, but these are some good questions. BTW, where did you originally post these questions? I amv ery active on the DA forums and do not recall seeing this there.

[kenargo]

I think you found were i asked the questions originally, I came here to do research and post the questions I wasn't getting answer.

Thanks again for indulging...

[digitalaquatics.com]

kenargo,

As we've posted in other threads, there are a number of features and modules that have been in the works quietly for some time, (before competitive offerings were even announced,) these should answer a number of questions that have been asked here and elsewhere.

That was all placed on hold so we could shift gears on the SL2 as we publicly noted had few early hurtles and then supply chain issues. At any rate, now that is behind us and the SL2 is in production, and we’re refocusing our efforts on the above-mentioned updates and modules.

I can assure you (and others,) this is far from smoke and mirrors or empty promises. We’ve got a number of great features and new toys that will be made public over the next 30-60 days. You know as well as anyone that these things take time and there are obvious reasons why we don’t always show our hand.

Take care,

Scott
DA

[Jocko]

Originally posted by kenargo
RKE manual appears to support brightness for the lunar modules #MLC or ALM#, the Apex tracks lunar cycles through season table (which can be modified) but does not support directly user controlled brightness

You may have already found this, but just to clarify this point. The MLC does vary the intensity on a nightly basis according to the moon cycle. After it's release, DA added the ability to adjust the max brightness of the LED's. But within that range you set it continues to operate on the lunar cycle.

[kenargo]

Originally posted by Jocko
You may have already found this, but just to clarify this point. The MLC does vary the intensity on a nightly basis according to the moon cycle. After it's release, DA added the ability to adjust the max brightness of the LED's. But within that range you set it continues to operate on the lunar cycle.

Thanks for the clarification!

[kenargo]

Originally posted by digitalaquatics.com
kenargo,

As we've posted in other threads, there are a number of features and modules that have been in the works quietly for some time, (before competitive offerings were even announced,) these should answer a number of questions that have been asked here and elsewhere.

That was all placed on hold so we could shift gears on the SL2 as we publicly noted had few early hurtles and then supply chain issues. At any rate, now that is behind us and the SL2 is in production, and we’re refocusing our efforts on the above-mentioned updates and modules.

I can assure you (and others,) this is far from smoke and mirrors or empty promises. We’ve got a number of great features and new toys that will be made public over the next 30-60 days. You know as well as anyone that these things take time and there are obvious reasons why we don’t always show our hand.

Take care,

Scott
DA

Thanks for the kind reply. I expect that both controllers will meet needs of the aquarist and (both) will get better over time. Any review is always a snapshot in time and that should always be a consideration of the reader (things change, new products and options released, etc).

[digitalaquatics.com]

Please keep posting (on this and any thread or forum) civil!

[digitalaquatics.com]

kenargo,

Agreed.

[digitalaquatics.com]

And as it continues...

The RKE does have an iPhone app as well as the potential to have control remotely; the holdup is doing it correctly (in our opinion.) We’re not just going to roll out a feature without real thought and effort to the interface, form and function. If we did that we’d be just like everyone else. We have higher standards for our systems!

And to answer the support issues posted...
DA has rolled out the most expansive support system of any controller company by way of a very inclusive forum, and a staffed phone system where customers talk to our actual engineers. Both those were put in place about a year ago. But I’ll be the first to agree that before that effort, we had a gap in service; that’s now gone!

Scott
DA