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Unread 04/04/2003, 09:58 AM   #1
reefkeeper2
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phosban and reactor effluent

Is there any reason why I can't have my calcium reactor effluent drip through anti phosphorus compounds? I am presently trying out Phosban and though this would be a great way to eliminate any phosphorus coming out of the reactor.


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Unread 04/04/2003, 11:13 AM   #2
MattL
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Does Phosban contain aluminum or alumina compounds?


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Unread 04/04/2003, 11:44 AM   #3
reefkeeper2
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no, it's an iron based (ferric oxide) exchange resin


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Unread 04/04/2003, 12:20 PM   #4
Randy Holmes-Farley
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The lower the pH the more poorly I expect many phosphate binding materials to work (because the more highly charged phosphate forms, like PO4---, will typically bind more strongly. Also, the iron will be more inclined to dissolve at the lower pH.

Whether either of those are significant reasons to not do it, I cannot really say.

Any comments, Habib?


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Unread 04/07/2003, 12:55 AM   #5
Habib
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Is there any reason why I can't have my calcium reactor effluent drip through anti phosphorus compounds?

I can't comment on Phosban itself but in general I would we a little cautious with a low pH and any media unless the manufacturer states it to be safe to use it in that way.


However, if you want to experiment then I would only use a small amount and use a larger amount using the normal pH aquariumwater.

One of the risks using low pH water is that when for whatever reason the pH changes from say 6.5 to say 8.2 some of the adsorbed substances (not only phosphate) might be released back into the tank water.


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Unread 04/08/2003, 10:04 AM   #6
reefkeeper2
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Thanks Habib. Since the product is ok'd for freshwater use, I wouldn't think a pH of 6.5 would be harmful. I have decided not to risk it though and will pass ordinary aquarium water thru it.


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Unread 04/15/2003, 11:39 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
The lower the pH the more poorly I expect many phosphate binding materials to work (because the more highly charged phosphate forms, like PO4---, will typically bind more strongly. Also, the iron will be more inclined to dissolve at the lower pH.
Whether either of those are significant reasons to not do it, I cannot really say.
Hi, its Joe from Atlantis Marine World. I've been running my reactor effluent thru PhosBan with no problems for about a month now and from what I've read of GFO's, they perform better at a lower pH then normally seen in reef tanks. I strongly recommend them on reactor effluents. I have mine set up for reverse flow as well and not that the bed is fluidized and swirling around but rather the bed is lifted but basically static with a slight undulation of the fines at the surface of the media. I had some in a modified sand filter vessel but there were clumping issues when the water was fed down thru the media bed.
Early on the tank and reactor PO4 levels combined were 0.105 and the readings out of that PB reactor were 0.023. My PB media column is low while I'm flowing on average 1-2lpm thru the reactors. If I had some more media in there, my bet is it would be lower. I recently set up a larger reverse flow reactor (hopefully attached is a photo) which currently flows 9gpm and is taking the influent tank level of 0.079 down to effluent level of 0.016 on a single pass. I will be adding more media to that reactor as well in the near future. I think the pH would have to be much lower then reactor effluents to dissolve the media. All the reactors receive mechanically filtered tank water as well.
Care to guess what M.O.A.P stands for?
Joe


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Unread 04/16/2003, 06:09 AM   #8
Randy Holmes-Farley
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GFO's,

GFO?

Care to guess what M.O.A.P stands for?

Right after you tell me what a GFO is.


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Unread 04/16/2003, 06:16 AM   #9
Habib
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GFO:

Granular Ferric Oxide

MOAP:

My Own made Anti Phosphate???????????

Can we win something?


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Unread 04/16/2003, 06:18 AM   #10
Randy Holmes-Farley
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Habib, is it your understanding that they would perform better at lower pH?


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Unread 04/16/2003, 06:36 AM   #11
Justjoe
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Quote:
Originally posted by Habib
GFO:

Granular Ferric Oxide

MOAP:

My Own made Anti Phosphate???????????

Can we win something?
How 'bout a behind the scenes tour at Atlantis?!
MOAP...
In keeping with President Bush...
Mother Of All Phosphate reactors
Joe


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Unread 04/16/2003, 06:50 AM   #12
Habib
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Mother Of All Phosphate reactors

Well in that case you better change the word "reactor" below MOAP to "reactors"



Randy:

Habib, is it your understanding that they would perform better at lower pH?

With the limited data (small range in marine water) I am a bit careful but I don't think that a lower pH will be an improvement.

Most of the inorganic phosphate in NSW is as HPO4-- and PO4--- .
There is practically no H2PO4- at pH > 7.8.

Since an extremely short residence time (seconds) can decrease the initial phosphate by at least 90% makes it very unlikely that the H2PO4-- is the limiting factor.

HTH


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Unread 04/16/2003, 07:42 AM   #13
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Nice looking reactor but I'm confused as to how its connected. The flow comes from the bottom? How is it connected to to your Ca reactor? I made one of my own out of some pipe and a powerhead but have wondered about using one of the fluidized sand filters. I don't want to spend the money to purchase one and then find out it grinds the media to dust!


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Unread 04/16/2003, 08:23 AM   #14
Justjoe
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Quote:
Originally posted by reefkeeper2
Nice looking reactor but I'm confused as to how its connected. The flow comes from the bottom? How is it connected to to your Ca reactor?
Sorry for the confusion, the reactor shown is not the one that is hooked up to the Ca reactor. The one shown is supplied thru the bottom fitting from a high rate sand filter (HRSF), which hits a dispersion plate to spread the flow evenly up the reactor. The set up is essentially the same as the one hooked up to Ca reactor, I'll try to get a photo of it today.
It takes very little flow to gently lift the GFO bed to a static mode. MOAP shown is 18" diameter and currently holds ~ 44pounds of media and 9gpm is about the max I can put thru it without it getting too turbulent.
Joe


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Unread 04/16/2003, 09:14 AM   #15
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Do you think a commercial fluidized sand filter would work the same?


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Unread 04/16/2003, 10:30 AM   #16
Randy Holmes-Farley
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It takes very little flow to gently lift the GFO bed to a static mode. MOAP shown is 18" diameter and currently holds ~ 44pounds of media and 9gpm is about the max I can put thru it without it getting too turbulent.

44 pounds is one whale of a lot of phosphate remover, but then again, 20,000 gallons is a reasonably large tank.


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Unread 04/16/2003, 12:56 PM   #17
Justjoe
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Quote:
Originally posted by reefkeeper2
Do you think a commercial fluidized sand filter would work the same?
If the flow is adjusted properly so its not a whirling sand storm, that should be fine. You may want to set one up with a pump with a bypass "T" and valve so you can really tweek the flow to the unit and bypass any water you don't need.
Joe


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Unread 04/16/2003, 12:58 PM   #18
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Quote:
44 pounds is one whale of a lot of phosphate remover, but then again, 20,000 gallons is a reasonably large tank. [/B]
I think the suggested dose rate is 1gram/gallon and with the largest reef in this hemisphere and the 3rd largest in the world (closed systems), that adds up very quickly...
Joe


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Unread 04/16/2003, 04:28 PM   #19
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Here's a (blurry) picture of my Schuran Multifilter 100 (holds around 2litres of media total) that I use for phosphate remover and carbon. In the bottom you can see around 1 litre of phosphate remover and then the black section at the top is carbon. I too have the flow adjusted so the phosphate remover lifts and just bounces around a little at the surface.


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Unread 04/16/2003, 06:01 PM   #20
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I'm using a coralife "chemical reactor", available at pet warehouse, pet solutions etc, 29.95, hooked to an old maxijet with a small valve--perfect fluidization for the media.


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Unread 04/16/2003, 08:56 PM   #21
Justjoe
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Quote:
Originally posted by simonh
Here's a (blurry) picture of my Schuran Multifilter 100 (holds around 2litres of media total) that I use for phosphate remover and carbon.
Would there be any advantage to running a phosphate reactor with carbon prior to the GFO? Would that possibly make the GFO last longer?

If not, would it be better to run the GFO before the carbon which would possibly increase the lifespan of the of carbon?

I don't combine the two in one reactor since I don't know which has a longer life span, etc.
Joe


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Unread 04/17/2003, 06:32 AM   #22
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Joe,

I'm not sure if the carbon would have any effect on lifespan of the phosphate remover or vice-versa.

I did originally mix the 2 together but then decided this made it impossible to replace one before the other. So, I put the carbon at the top of the filter as I can open the top and pour that out and replace it around once a month or so, whereas I normally use the phosphate remover for a good few months. Two Schuran reactors would be getting a little excessive even for me


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Unread 04/18/2003, 09:05 PM   #23
Justjoe
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Quote:
Originally posted by reefkeeper2
no, it's an iron based (ferric oxide) exchange resin
Habib/Randy,
With the use of GFO's, we talk about what it is removing (PO4, As, etc) but if its an exchange resin, what is it exchanging into the tank? Or is the PO4 simply bound by the GFO?
Thanks,
Joe


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Unread 04/19/2003, 05:42 AM   #24
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Depending on the nature of the surface site that it is binding to, you might not release anything (that is, the site is an exposed iron ion) or you might exchange hydroxide (assuming the site is an iron ion that hs an attached hydroxide ion that is displaced. You might even displace two or three hydroxide ions.

On balance, I'd export more displacement of hydroxide than not, so I'd expect a tiny boost to alkalinity.

Habib certainly has more detailed information on this topic. Habib?


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Unread 04/09/2004, 09:22 AM   #25
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Justjoe.. Have you had any issue with Ca depositing in the Phosphate reactor since you are running your Ca Reactor's effluents thru it?? Have you had any issue with the phosphate remover media clumping up??


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