Acro Eating Flatworms in a Bowl: Test Time!

Bigred · 01/20/2006, 11:31 PM

They're in a bowl with about a half gal of water. First I tried ten drops of FWE and still cruising. Nexted ten drops of Lugol's and still cruising. What's next that I can get pretty easy at LFS tomorrow?

Here's some pics. #1 is the flatworm and #2 is the eggs.

otolith · 01/20/2006, 11:45 PM

Great pics, even though it is under unfortunate circumstances that you're able to take them.

Go to Fleet Farm or some sort of feed store and get some levimasole and see what that does to them. Either that or the anti-fluke medication (can't remember the name).

clkwrk · 01/20/2006, 11:49 PM

Try tropic marin pro coral cure if you can get it . It has worked for me . It dosen't kill the eggs but those should be scaped off not matter what treatment you use.

Bigred · 01/20/2006, 11:58 PM

I'll try to keep these guys alive for a day or two until I can get something that kills them. Anyone esle with recommendations?

BlueStag · 01/21/2006, 12:48 AM

I've found that Lugol's Iodine does kill the adults in higher concentrations. I was using about 12 to 15 drops in as little as 1 sixteen ounce cup of water. Almost triple the dose you attempted. It took about 25 to 35 seconds. Unsure of what it does to the eggs.

Try shaking the coral inside the cup violently while it is submerged, after dipping it in the super high concentration. You'll be amazed at what drops off. It's almost creepy.

ReeferMac · 01/21/2006, 06:27 AM

Awesome pics Steve! Especially of the egg's, those are very clearly visible. Thanks for sharing.

I found that a squirt of FW exit in a small quantity of water did kill them, and in rather short order. Mind you, I had perhaps a few cups of water, and it was one healthy 2-second long squirt of the stuff....

Anti-fluke med's also seem to work as well. You can usually get those at PetCo, etc., if needed. I have some Levamisole en route (shipped Thursday), which is something that will work as well, and Mitch Carl was kind enough to help us hobbiests out w/ a dip dosage (here's the thread if you haven't been following: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=688833 )

- Mac

Bigred · 01/22/2006, 10:30 PM

Well my tet is to see how long they live. I have them in a bag floating in my sump. I want to see what kind of life cycle they have.

Bigred · 01/22/2006, 10:30 PM

Well my test is to see how long they live. I have them in a bag floating in my sump. I want to see what kind of life cycle they have.

Sparkss · 01/30/2006, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ReeferMac
Awesome pics Steve! Especially of the egg's, those are very clearly visible. Thanks for sharing.

I found that a squirt of FW exit in a small quantity of water did kill them, and in rather short order. Mind you, I had perhaps a few cups of water, and it was one healthy 2-second long squirt of the stuff....

The biggest question would be at what dosage is FWE dangerous to a reef tank, and at what dosage it actually kills these little monsters (and do those dosages overlap). We have a dip to use, but I am not comfortable in guaranteeing (sp?) that I can get every AEFW in our tanks. Just 1 fallling off the coral as we remove them for dipping is enough to start them all over again (potentially). If FWE can be found to work in a higher, but still safe, dosage, then that is something that everyone can use (and something I will personally dance a jig about if it ever came to pass). Please pass along any further information or experiences. Thanks.

Pyrrhus · 01/30/2006, 09:34 PM

try 25 drops of lugols to 200ml of seawater for 15 minutes

Sparkss · 01/30/2006, 09:47 PM

But that still does not address the possibiity of an in tank treatment. No one treats in-tank with Lugols (they may dose maintenance levels of iodine, but not to treat a pest or infection), but they do with FWE. Although the dosage of FWE required might be too much for a reef tank to bear also.

weatherson · 01/30/2006, 09:47 PM

OK... Here's some photos I took of the bastards I found in my tank...

First, here's a large one shot in a white bowl;

And another of the same guy on the move and stretched out a bit;

A shot of some eggs;

And finally, a closer shot which shows in better detail the eggs as well as some newly hatched worms (the little white blotches) as well as a couple, more mature hatchlings towards the bottom of the shot. These appear to have darker "head".

I have done two red bug treatments, one per week, and will be doing the last tomorrow. At the same time, I did FWE treatments but did these a couple hours before the red bug. The first FWE treatment was at the recommended dosage. The second, I did almost twice the recommended dosage and as soon as I get more FWE (hopefully, this week), I plan to do a three times the recommended dosage. There are others who have done so at this level with no adverse effects. The first two, along with the red bug treatment, had seemingly caused no issues other than the typical cyannobacteria bloom following the treatment. I've recently pulled out for inspection a couple of corals that had previously had flat worms on them. I found no eggs of any evidence of flat worms. I did this by vigorously shaking the corals in a large bowl of tank water and let the corals dry as much to enable visual clues of their presence. Again, I've yet to find any since the two previous treatments but still plan to do the third, 3X dosage treatment. I'll update here after.

Joseph

SeanT · 01/30/2006, 11:29 PM

WOW those pics are awesome.

May I use them?
What kind of camera are you taking the pics with?

Sean

weatherson · 01/30/2006, 11:32 PM

Thanks. Use them for????

The camera is the Canon Digital Rebel and 100mm macro lens.

Joseph

SeanT · 01/30/2006, 11:36 PM

Use them to make millons of $ and shaft you of course.

As reference to AEFW's.

Sparkss · 01/30/2006, 11:48 PM

weatherson/joseph is known amongst hie reef club members as being very talented with the macro lens (having that sweet camera set up doesn't hurt either

)

(anonymous) sparkss has camera and lens envy...
(Sparkss) His lens is NOT bigger than mine!!?!!?!

hehe

Joseph, please keep us informed as to your progress. I was planning to buy some FWE anyways, and this just prompts me to order it sooner than later. Thank you for your innovations and efforts

Of course the big test would be to treat a known infected (confirmed immediately prior to the treament) colony/coral with the 2x (or higher) dosage and then see if it had any affect on the little monsters (checked immediately after the treatment).....

weatherson · 01/31/2006, 12:28 AM

Sean,
As long as it's non-commerce/profit and due credit given, no problem.

Sparkss,
Agreed that we need a more controlled experiment but at this point of my fear and fright, my tank as whole will have to do.

I should mention that I decided on this treatment of using FWE after having dropped one drop over the pictured flat worm while it was in the bowl of water. It instantly reacted by twisting and contorting with a gooey mess of death within minutes. After adding several more drops to the bowl and five hours later, all the 6 or so other worms were in the same state of death. The five hours was because I left home and returned after five hours. They may have died much sooner and probably did.

Joseph

Sparkss · 01/31/2006, 01:04 AM

Joseph,

I am in a similar state of fear and fright with our tank, so I share your desire for expedience over control and precision. Can you confirm that you are/were using Salifert Flat Worm Exit ? (just to make sure that there is not some other product out there that I am just oblivious to

). Any other details about the dosage (how many times the recommended) and the duration of treatment (I guess prior to the addition of carbon/UV/ozone, etc). Did you do any large water changes afterwards ? (I am not sure if Salifert calls for one or not). Any other info that might be useful would be greatly appreciated. I will be ordering the FWE tomorrow (along with some extra GAC for our canister filter) and plan to perform the treatment Thursday (or Friday at the latest). Thanks.

weatherson · 01/31/2006, 01:16 AM

Yes. I used Salifert Flat Worm Exit(FWE). The bottle treats roughly 300-gallons which is roughly my total system water volume. The first treatment I used a whole bottle with no UV, carbon or ozone but with the skimmer still running as per the instructions. An hour later I added the UV, carbon and ozone and let this run for a couple of hours. I then did the red bug treatment with no UV, carbon, ozone or skimmer. Waited 6-hours and then started everything again along with doing a water change.

The second treatment was the same procedure but with approximately a bottle and 3/4 of FWE.

I'm waiting for a shipment of FWE and my red bug treatment is tomorrow so they will be apart for the third and final treatment. This time, I will be doing 3 bottles or 3 times the recommended dosage. Fingers crossed.

Bigred · 01/31/2006, 08:15 AM

I'm thinking that I'm going to set up my 7gal nano with a heater and some flow and see how long they live with out food. Right now I've kept them in a bowl for 4-5 days and most of them 25 of 28 dies and just oozed away. So next time I find some I'll do this. Then we can kind of figure out if we take all our corals out and put them into another system and let the main tank sit with no SPS for 1-2 weeks and the dose the corals before putting them back in. With no AEFW's left hopefully.

ReeferMac · 01/31/2006, 08:51 AM

I had a problem w/ the regular Red FW's, and couldn't get rid of them. After several treatments at "recommended" dosages of Salifert FWExit, I got tired of the hassle. I put 6.5 bottles of the stuff in my tank, and walked away.
... Never did see any flatworms after that, but the rest of the tank kinda took a hit from the stuff. It's recovering still, but ... I still don't have those red FW's.

Fish and corals seemed unfazed, some snails didn't seem happy, and the bristle worms were p-i-s-s-e-d, but... the big stuff all made it. Bugs and worms and such seemed to be the only other casualties.
Now if I could just get rid of the Acro-eating variety.

- Mac

sm fragman · 01/31/2006, 10:53 AM

just a ? wouldnt interceptor kill these little basterds? it is heartworm med and i see it kills many diffreant kinds of paris. worms

Bigred · 01/31/2006, 11:00 AM

I just did a redbug treatement and it didn't do anything to them. I found them right after the treatement.

Chrisrush · 01/31/2006, 11:03 AM

Nope, interceptor does not work on FWs, just red bugs. Different critters.

Great pictures by the way.

Chris

SeanT · 01/31/2006, 12:11 PM

Joseph,
Rest assured that the only usage I will have of them is when people say...
"What do they look like?" etc.
Sean

01/20/2006, 11:49 PM	#3
clkwrk Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Mesa ,Az Posts: 10,257	Try tropic marin pro coral cure if you can get it . It has worked for me . It dosen't kill the eggs but those should be scaped off not matter what treatment you use. __________________ ------- Feel free to use my photos for ONLY informative sites, education or enjoyment.All I ask is to include my Reef Central User id and where you got the photo ( RC).

01/20/2006, 11:58 PM	#4
Bigred The Truth Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: San Tan Valley, AZ Posts: 2,401	I'll try to keep these guys alive for a day or two until I can get something that kills them. Anyone esle with recommendations? __________________ Water change? What is that? Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

01/22/2006, 10:30 PM	#7
Bigred The Truth Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: San Tan Valley, AZ Posts: 2,401	Well my tet is to see how long they live. I have them in a bag floating in my sump. I want to see what kind of life cycle they have. __________________ Water change? What is that? Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

01/22/2006, 10:30 PM	#8
Bigred The Truth Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: San Tan Valley, AZ Posts: 2,401	Well my test is to see how long they live. I have them in a bag floating in my sump. I want to see what kind of life cycle they have. __________________ Water change? What is that? Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

01/30/2006, 09:34 PM	#10
Pyrrhus Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Tempe, AZ Posts: 2,713	try 25 drops of lugols to 200ml of seawater for 15 minutes __________________ Severe Knowledge In Plumbing

01/20/2006, 11:31 PM	#1
Bigred The Truth Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: San Tan Valley, AZ Posts: 2,401	Acro Eating Flatworms in a bowl test time! They're in a bowl with about a half gal of water. First I tried ten drops of FWE and still cruising. Nexted ten drops of Lugol's and still cruising. What's next that I can get pretty easy at LFS tomorrow? Here's some pics. #1 is the flatworm and #2 is the eggs. __________________ Water change? What is that? Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

01/20/2006, 11:45 PM	#2
otolith Cancer Sucks Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: MN Posts: 1,398	Great pics, even though it is under unfortunate circumstances that you're able to take them. Go to Fleet Farm or some sort of feed store and get some levimasole and see what that does to them. Either that or the anti-fluke medication (can't remember the name). __________________ [QUOTE=BrianD;21444507]Listen to this man.[/QUOTE] "When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the universe." --John Muir Current Tank Info: 210g in the works :)

01/21/2006, 12:48 AM	#5
BlueStag Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Huntington Beach Posts: 1,054	I've found that Lugol's Iodine does kill the adults in higher concentrations. I was using about 12 to 15 drops in as little as 1 sixteen ounce cup of water. Almost triple the dose you attempted. It took about 25 to 35 seconds. Unsure of what it does to the eggs. Try shaking the coral inside the cup violently while it is submerged, after dipping it in the super high concentration. You'll be amazed at what drops off. It's almost creepy.

01/21/2006, 06:27 AM	#6
ReeferMac Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: 43° 02' N, 77° 42' W, Earth. Posts: 7,794	Awesome pics Steve! Especially of the egg's, those are very clearly visible. Thanks for sharing. I found that a squirt of FW exit in a small quantity of water did kill them, and in rather short order. Mind you, I had perhaps a few cups of water, and it was one healthy 2-second long squirt of the stuff.... Anti-fluke med's also seem to work as well. You can usually get those at PetCo, etc., if needed. I have some Levamisole en route (shipped Thursday), which is something that will work as well, and Mitch Carl was kind enough to help us hobbiests out w/ a dip dosage (here's the thread if you haven't been following: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=688833 ) - Mac

01/30/2006, 09:47 PM	#11
Sparkss Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Oakley (94561) Posts: 5,030	But that still does not address the possibiity of an in tank treatment. No one treats in-tank with Lugols (they may dose maintenance levels of iodine, but not to treat a pest or infection), but they do with FWE. Although the dosage of FWE required might be too much for a reef tank to bear also. __________________ - Tom Current Tank Info: 380 starfire inwall ,two 150g sump/fuge. Volcano Ca RX, ato, 6' Volcano skimmer. LAIIIs w/400w AquaConnect 14K on IC EBallasts

01/30/2006, 09:47 PM	#12
weatherson Premium Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: California Posts: 2,022	OK... Here's some photos I took of the bastards I found in my tank... First, here's a large one shot in a white bowl; And another of the same guy on the move and stretched out a bit; A shot of some eggs; And finally, a closer shot which shows in better detail the eggs as well as some newly hatched worms (the little white blotches) as well as a couple, more mature hatchlings towards the bottom of the shot. These appear to have darker "head". I have done two red bug treatments, one per week, and will be doing the last tomorrow. At the same time, I did FWE treatments but did these a couple hours before the red bug. The first FWE treatment was at the recommended dosage. The second, I did almost twice the recommended dosage and as soon as I get more FWE (hopefully, this week), I plan to do a three times the recommended dosage. There are others who have done so at this level with no adverse effects. The first two, along with the red bug treatment, had seemingly caused no issues other than the typical cyannobacteria bloom following the treatment. I've recently pulled out for inspection a couple of corals that had previously had flat worms on them. I found no eggs of any evidence of flat worms. I did this by vigorously shaking the corals in a large bowl of tank water and let the corals dry as much to enable visual clues of their presence. Again, I've yet to find any since the two previous treatments but still plan to do the third, 3X dosage treatment. I'll update here after. Joseph

01/30/2006, 11:29 PM	#13
SeanT Premium Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Wilmington, North Carolina Posts: 13,860	WOW those pics are awesome. May I use them? What kind of camera are you taking the pics with? Sean __________________ My tank was cool. Current Tank Info: Barebottom (the tank not me...at least not at the moment).

01/30/2006, 11:32 PM	#14
weatherson Premium Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: California Posts: 2,022	Thanks. Use them for???? The camera is the Canon Digital Rebel and 100mm macro lens. Joseph

01/30/2006, 11:36 PM	#15
SeanT Premium Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Wilmington, North Carolina Posts: 13,860	Use them to make millons of $ and shaft you of course. As reference to AEFW's. __________________ My tank was cool. Current Tank Info: Barebottom (the tank not me...at least not at the moment).

01/30/2006, 11:48 PM	#16
Sparkss Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Oakley (94561) Posts: 5,030	weatherson/joseph is known amongst hie reef club members as being very talented with the macro lens (having that sweet camera set up doesn't hurt either ) (anonymous) sparkss has camera and lens envy... (Sparkss) His lens is NOT bigger than mine!!?!!?! hehe Joseph, please keep us informed as to your progress. I was planning to buy some FWE anyways, and this just prompts me to order it sooner than later. Thank you for your innovations and efforts Of course the big test would be to treat a known infected (confirmed immediately prior to the treament) colony/coral with the 2x (or higher) dosage and then see if it had any affect on the little monsters (checked immediately after the treatment)..... __________________ - Tom Current Tank Info: 380 starfire inwall ,two 150g sump/fuge. Volcano Ca RX, ato, 6' Volcano skimmer. LAIIIs w/400w AquaConnect 14K on IC EBallasts

01/31/2006, 12:28 AM	#17
weatherson Premium Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: California Posts: 2,022	Sean, As long as it's non-commerce/profit and due credit given, no problem. Sparkss, Agreed that we need a more controlled experiment but at this point of my fear and fright, my tank as whole will have to do. I should mention that I decided on this treatment of using FWE after having dropped one drop over the pictured flat worm while it was in the bowl of water. It instantly reacted by twisting and contorting with a gooey mess of death within minutes. After adding several more drops to the bowl and five hours later, all the 6 or so other worms were in the same state of death. The five hours was because I left home and returned after five hours. They may have died much sooner and probably did. Joseph

01/31/2006, 01:04 AM	#18
Sparkss Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Oakley (94561) Posts: 5,030	Joseph, I am in a similar state of fear and fright with our tank, so I share your desire for expedience over control and precision. Can you confirm that you are/were using Salifert Flat Worm Exit ? (just to make sure that there is not some other product out there that I am just oblivious to ). Any other details about the dosage (how many times the recommended) and the duration of treatment (I guess prior to the addition of carbon/UV/ozone, etc). Did you do any large water changes afterwards ? (I am not sure if Salifert calls for one or not). Any other info that might be useful would be greatly appreciated. I will be ordering the FWE tomorrow (along with some extra GAC for our canister filter) and plan to perform the treatment Thursday (or Friday at the latest). Thanks. __________________ - Tom Current Tank Info: 380 starfire inwall ,two 150g sump/fuge. Volcano Ca RX, ato, 6' Volcano skimmer. LAIIIs w/400w AquaConnect 14K on IC EBallasts

01/31/2006, 01:16 AM	#19
weatherson Premium Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: California Posts: 2,022	Yes. I used Salifert Flat Worm Exit(FWE). The bottle treats roughly 300-gallons which is roughly my total system water volume. The first treatment I used a whole bottle with no UV, carbon or ozone but with the skimmer still running as per the instructions. An hour later I added the UV, carbon and ozone and let this run for a couple of hours. I then did the red bug treatment with no UV, carbon, ozone or skimmer. Waited 6-hours and then started everything again along with doing a water change. The second treatment was the same procedure but with approximately a bottle and 3/4 of FWE. I'm waiting for a shipment of FWE and my red bug treatment is tomorrow so they will be apart for the third and final treatment. This time, I will be doing 3 bottles or 3 times the recommended dosage. Fingers crossed.

01/31/2006, 08:15 AM	#20
Bigred The Truth Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: San Tan Valley, AZ Posts: 2,401	I'm thinking that I'm going to set up my 7gal nano with a heater and some flow and see how long they live with out food. Right now I've kept them in a bowl for 4-5 days and most of them 25 of 28 dies and just oozed away. So next time I find some I'll do this. Then we can kind of figure out if we take all our corals out and put them into another system and let the main tank sit with no SPS for 1-2 weeks and the dose the corals before putting them back in. With no AEFW's left hopefully. __________________ Water change? What is that? Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

01/31/2006, 08:51 AM	#21
ReeferMac Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: 43° 02' N, 77° 42' W, Earth. Posts: 7,794	I had a problem w/ the regular Red FW's, and couldn't get rid of them. After several treatments at "recommended" dosages of Salifert FWExit, I got tired of the hassle. I put 6.5 bottles of the stuff in my tank, and walked away. ... Never did see any flatworms after that, but the rest of the tank kinda took a hit from the stuff. It's recovering still, but ... I still don't have those red FW's. Fish and corals seemed unfazed, some snails didn't seem happy, and the bristle worms were p-i-s-s-e-d, but... the big stuff all made it. Bugs and worms and such seemed to be the only other casualties. Now if I could just get rid of the Acro-eating variety. - Mac

01/31/2006, 10:53 AM	#22
sm fragman Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: ithaca ny Posts: 618	just a ? wouldnt interceptor kill these little basterds? it is heartworm med and i see it kills many diffreant kinds of paris. worms

01/31/2006, 11:00 AM	#23
Bigred The Truth Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: San Tan Valley, AZ Posts: 2,401	I just did a redbug treatement and it didn't do anything to them. I found them right after the treatement. __________________ Water change? What is that? Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

01/31/2006, 11:03 AM	#24
Chrisrush Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 2,754	Nope, interceptor does not work on FWs, just red bugs. Different critters. Great pictures by the way. Chris __________________ Thanks, Chris Current Tank Info: 2015 Reef Savvy Dream Tank Winner

01/31/2006, 12:11 PM	#25
SeanT Premium Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Wilmington, North Carolina Posts: 13,860	Joseph, Rest assured that the only usage I will have of them is when people say... "What do they look like?" etc. Sean __________________ My tank was cool. Current Tank Info: Barebottom (the tank not me...at least not at the moment).