Kent Salt - Dangerously Low Alkalinity - READ ME!

melev · 03/22/2006, 01:11 PM

Guys, while I've been aware of the problem for the past couple of months, I didn't realize it was happening with others. Perhaps you are suffering from excessively low alkalinity readings as well? I just buffered it up as necessary, but from a thread I read last night in the Chemistry Forum, it may be wide-spread.

What I'm asking is for you to take the time to read the thread and chime in with your thoughts. Yes, it is 8 pages long (currently). In a nutshell, some are getting readings of less an 1 meq/L right out of brand new 200g bucket - this is the one with the yellow lettering and a sealed bag inside. The lid doesn't have a rubber gasket.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...5&pagenumber=1

The purpose of this thread is to get more input from Kent Sea Salt users, not to hear how your salt is better. Please help keep this thread on the first page, and if you can, post your saltwater test results. Let's see if this is as far reaching as some fear.

DeLong20 · 03/22/2006, 01:45 PM

Heres a bump for ya! It appears from the above linked thread that this is at least a country wide problem. Personally I know of several people in the SW Missouri and NW Arkansas area that have recieved bad salt from Kent. For those that are still using Kent salt, please test your freshly made saltwater. It could save your tank!

DeLong20 · 03/22/2006, 01:46 PM

MODS- is there a way to "pin" this thread at the top of the first page?

Dan Thrash · 03/22/2006, 02:34 PM

i'm setting up my first saltwater tank now and ordered a bucket of Kent a few weeks ago before i heard of this. i have a low Alk reading. i guess i'll have to try Randy's 2 part - Alk buffer.

from reading, it also appears that Kent doesnt see a problem...and that is disturbing. I think i'll eventually switch salts when my bucket runs out.

blide · 03/22/2006, 03:05 PM

For those of you that need help adjusting because of the low Alk this calculator will help.

http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html

And some interesting facts for those who are unaware of baking soda:

Baking Soda = Sodium Bicarbonate
Baking soda (raises Alk/lowers pH)
Baked baking soda (raises Alk/raises pH)

Paintbug · 03/22/2006, 03:36 PM

melev the problem has leached into the bags as well. i have one myself.

melev · 03/22/2006, 03:45 PM

I didn't know that. Thanks for chiming in! Can you post your results? Does the bag look different or is it the same as it always has been?

Paintbug · 03/22/2006, 03:57 PM

i started a thread about a week ago
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...72#post6970272

alk=0.6
SG= 1.025
Ca= 400ppm
PH= 7.7-7.8 ( i use a cheap test for PH)

im waiting for the stuff the send Kent a sample. im waiting to see what they do about the problem for me, and then judge them.

the bags look the same to me but they do have a zip lock top on them.

turbodiesel01 · 03/22/2006, 05:12 PM

tag

bolt696 · 03/22/2006, 05:26 PM

Hi,
I have been having a low alk problem as well the past few weeks. I recently bought a bag of reef crystal (which I never used before). Do you know of any problems with this brand?

melev · 03/22/2006, 06:15 PM

Bolt - No, I don't. Sorry.

Turbodiesel - please click on Subscribe to this Thread (base of the page) rather than posting tag. Thanks!

Okay...

Paintbug · 03/22/2006, 06:35 PM

any way to make this a sticky?

Dan Thrash · 03/22/2006, 06:50 PM

say i get an Alk value of about 1 meq/l (i gotta get a more accurate test kit) and you want to raise it to 2.5 meq/l in a tank with only ~8 gal of water....if you use Randy's Recipe 1, it says to use 24 ml and the pH can rise as much as 0.35 for each 0.5 meq/l increase.

if i add all that into my tank will my pH increase to over 9 from 8.2? how do you control it without the pH going through the roof? just dose slowly?

turbodiesel01 · 03/22/2006, 07:33 PM

If I just subscribe it doesn't bump to the top of the board. Also couldn't seem to find the button.

Now about that salt thing...

melev · 03/22/2006, 07:52 PM

Thanks for the bump Turbodiesel. The option to subscribe is right below the quick-edit box of every page. Look under "Reset Form".

Dan, you should increase the alk in the saltwater mixing vat, not directly in your tank. If you are trying to raise alk in your display tank, mix the additive in a cup of RO/DI water, add a little bit, wait an hour and test the alkalinity. If still low, add a little more, test an hour later, and so on. Having this number leap upward to acceptable levels is rather harsh on the livestock.

Most products have a measurement listed on the container, so you can figure out exact how much to dose to get the numbers you want to attain. It would still be wise to dose half of that, wait and test, until you are more experienced and know what to expect.

Dan Thrash · 03/22/2006, 08:11 PM

thanks Marc! i dont have any livestock yet...just curing some rock outside of the tank...so i plan on dosing before it goes into the tank. i guess i just didnt want to be stuck with a ridiculously high pH that i'll have to get down with another additive.

dsquared · 03/22/2006, 09:59 PM

melev,
I just tested a 50 gal bag. I use salifert kits...6.7dKh..2.40 meq/L
Dave

aquaconnect · 03/22/2006, 10:44 PM

My TM has been testing out perfect, 9.7dkh, 400 calcium, pH 8.0 @ sg 1.025, temp 77. My reef is really turned around. I switched from the 'evil' Kent to IO because that was all I had access to at the time of the crash, and now TM salt looks even better and my corals are responding better than using IO. Absolutly no corals slimed while I did my water change like they sometimes do, and my Acan's came out to feed during the water change.

old salty · 03/22/2006, 10:46 PM

Marc,

Perhaps it's not the salt itself. I just switched to Marine Environment; pretty much the top of the line marine salt. I mixed up a batch, and with a Salifert test kit, it read 2 dKH. This seemed really strange to me, so I went ahead and contacted the manufacturer (AquaCraft.) They informed me that the Salifert test kits (and other hobbiest ones) are not capable of accurately measuring the alkalinity due to the way these test kits measure.

Could it be that Kent is using an alkalinity compound which Salifert test kits are incapable of measuring?

melev · 03/22/2006, 11:02 PM

No. That is a nice way of saying 'You are a mere hobbyist and simply can't understand the complexities of saltwater testing." Did this person offer you an alternate kit that will read his salt accurately?

Something you can bet upon is if there ever was a salt that Salifert can't test, Habib will crank out a new kit just for it. Check with RHF in the Chemistry forum if you need more input. He's our local expert, as far as I'm concerned.

aquaconnect · 03/22/2006, 11:10 PM

I agree with melev on this one. Too many people with many, many different tests looked at the salt. Besides, even cheap tests will get it close or so so normally. I think if it's off the charts with a cheap test, you know to dig deeper on the issue. At least you are testing, and that's a great start to insure your tank. In my case with all the tests I did, my cheap test didn't even measure any dkh.

Paintbug · 03/23/2006, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dsquared
melev,
I just tested a 50 gal bag. I use salifert kits...6.7dKh..2.40 meq/L
Dave

did this bag have the zip-lock on top of the bag?

slinger · 03/23/2006, 11:00 AM

I posted this on our local boards, and I thought I'd share it with the community at large...

Just to provide a counterpoint to the alk level problems others are seeing, I decided to test the two buckets of Kent salt that I had to check their alkalinity and PH levels. The first bucket (A) is an older white label Kent salt bucket, and is about a year old and only has about 25% of the salt left. The second bucket (B) was purchased a week ago from DNA and is the new yellow label bucket with bagged salt sealed with a zip tie inside, and was unopened until this test.

In both cases I mixed up about a gallon of water to 1.025 s.g. at 78 degrees for about ten minutes. I then took PH and alkalinity readings using Fastest kits (alas I don't have Salifert).

Results:

Bucket A - PH: 8.2, ALK: 11.2 dKH

Bucket B - PH: 8.2, ALK: 7.0 dKH

I then mixed up a 30 gallon batch of salt from the yellow label bucket B and let it mix overnight and redid the test, and the results were the same. While 7.0 is not that high for alkalinity, it's not too terrible either, so in this case the new Kent salt doesn't have as much of a problem as those who are seeing dKH values of 1.0 or lower.

Just FYI...

-Robert Hildinger

Paintbug · 03/23/2006, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by slinger
I posted this on our local boards, and I thought I'd share it with the community at large...

Just to provide a counterpoint to the alk level problems others are seeing, I decided to test the two buckets of Kent salt that I had to check their alkalinity and PH levels. The first bucket (A) is an older white label Kent salt bucket, and is about a year old and only has about 25% of the salt left. The second bucket (B) was purchased a week ago from DNA and is the new yellow label bucket with bagged salt sealed with a zip tie inside, and was unopened until this test.

In both cases I mixed up about a gallon of water to 1.025 s.g. at 78 degrees for about ten minutes. I then took PH and alkalinity readings using Fastest kits (alas I don't have Salifert).

Results:

Bucket A - PH: 8.2, ALK: 11.2 dKH

Bucket B - PH: 8.2, ALK: 7.0 dKH

I then mixed up a 30 gallon batch of salt from the yellow label bucket B and let it mix overnight and redid the test, and the results were the same. While 7.0 is not that high for alkalinity, it's not too terrible either, so in this case the new Kent salt doesn't have as much of a problem as those who are seeing dKH values of 1.0 or lower.

Just FYI...

-Robert Hildinger

i believe the problem was first reported in Dec. 05, so i would hope they stopped shipping the bad mix by now

. problem now is that the bad salt is showing up in the bags as well. i think if Kent would have used batch numbers this problem would have not gotten so bad. without them theres no way to say which batches are bad, or which batch is in what container. im glad to see that someone has test some from a new bucket. atleast it shows they fixed the mixing problem. thanks for the update!!

dsquared · 03/23/2006, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paintbug
did this bag have the zip-lock on top of the bag?

Yes zip-lock top.
Dave

03/22/2006, 01:11 PM	#1
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Kent Salt - Dangerously Low Alkalinity - READ ME! Guys, while I've been aware of the problem for the past couple of months, I didn't realize it was happening with others. Perhaps you are suffering from excessively low alkalinity readings as well? I just buffered it up as necessary, but from a thread I read last night in the Chemistry Forum, it may be wide-spread. What I'm asking is for you to take the time to read the thread and chime in with your thoughts. Yes, it is 8 pages long (currently). In a nutshell, some are getting readings of less an 1 meq/L right out of brand new 200g bucket - this is the one with the yellow lettering and a sealed bag inside. The lid doesn't have a rubber gasket. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...5&pagenumber=1 The purpose of this thread is to get more input from Kent Sea Salt users, not to hear how your salt is better. Please help keep this thread on the first page, and if you can, post your saltwater test results. Let's see if this is as far reaching as some fear.

03/22/2006, 01:45 PM	#2
DeLong20 Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Springfield, MO Posts: 342	Heres a bump for ya! It appears from the above linked thread that this is at least a country wide problem. Personally I know of several people in the SW Missouri and NW Arkansas area that have recieved bad salt from Kent. For those that are still using Kent salt, please test your freshly made saltwater. It could save your tank! __________________ Not clever enough to utilize this space Current Tank Info: 75gal, 30gal sump, 15gal fuge, ER cs6-2, Aquapro Lighting (2-150W HQI 2-96W PC Atinics 3-1W moonlights)(495W total) 24gal Nano in the works

03/22/2006, 01:46 PM	#3
DeLong20 Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Springfield, MO Posts: 342	MODS- is there a way to "pin" this thread at the top of the first page? __________________ Not clever enough to utilize this space Current Tank Info: 75gal, 30gal sump, 15gal fuge, ER cs6-2, Aquapro Lighting (2-150W HQI 2-96W PC Atinics 3-1W moonlights)(495W total) 24gal Nano in the works

03/22/2006, 03:36 PM	#6
Paintbug Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Stoneville, NC Posts: 6,169	melev the problem has leached into the bags as well. i have one myself. __________________ Never ask a girl over to see your crabs!! <-Tony-> Current Tank Info: NONE currently

03/22/2006, 03:57 PM	#8
Paintbug Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Stoneville, NC Posts: 6,169	i started a thread about a week ago http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...72#post6970272 alk=0.6 SG= 1.025 Ca= 400ppm PH= 7.7-7.8 ( i use a cheap test for PH) im waiting for the stuff the send Kent a sample. im waiting to see what they do about the problem for me, and then judge them. the bags look the same to me but they do have a zip lock top on them. __________________ Never ask a girl over to see your crabs!! <-Tony-> Current Tank Info: NONE currently

03/22/2006, 02:34 PM	#4
Dan Thrash Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 578	i'm setting up my first saltwater tank now and ordered a bucket of Kent a few weeks ago before i heard of this. i have a low Alk reading. i guess i'll have to try Randy's 2 part - Alk buffer. from reading, it also appears that Kent doesnt see a problem...and that is disturbing. I think i'll eventually switch salts when my bucket runs out.

03/22/2006, 03:05 PM	#5
blide Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Allen, TX Posts: 590	For those of you that need help adjusting because of the low Alk this calculator will help. http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html And some interesting facts for those who are unaware of baking soda: Baking Soda = Sodium Bicarbonate Baking soda (raises Alk/lowers pH) Baked baking soda (raises Alk/raises pH)

03/22/2006, 03:45 PM	#7
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	I didn't know that. Thanks for chiming in! Can you post your results? Does the bag look different or is it the same as it always has been?

03/22/2006, 05:12 PM	#9
turbodiesel01 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 114	tag

03/22/2006, 05:26 PM	#10
bolt696 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: long island, nassau county Posts: 493	Hi, I have been having a low alk problem as well the past few weeks. I recently bought a bag of reef crystal (which I never used before). Do you know of any problems with this brand?

03/22/2006, 06:15 PM	#11
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Bolt - No, I don't. Sorry. Turbodiesel - please click on Subscribe to this Thread (base of the page) rather than posting tag. Thanks! Okay...

03/22/2006, 06:35 PM	#12
Paintbug Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Stoneville, NC Posts: 6,169	any way to make this a sticky? __________________ Never ask a girl over to see your crabs!! <-Tony-> Current Tank Info: NONE currently

03/22/2006, 06:50 PM	#13
Dan Thrash Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 578	say i get an Alk value of about 1 meq/l (i gotta get a more accurate test kit) and you want to raise it to 2.5 meq/l in a tank with only ~8 gal of water....if you use Randy's Recipe 1, it says to use 24 ml and the pH can rise as much as 0.35 for each 0.5 meq/l increase. if i add all that into my tank will my pH increase to over 9 from 8.2? how do you control it without the pH going through the roof? just dose slowly?

03/22/2006, 07:33 PM	#14
turbodiesel01 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 114	If I just subscribe it doesn't bump to the top of the board. Also couldn't seem to find the button. Now about that salt thing...

03/22/2006, 07:52 PM	#15
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Thanks for the bump Turbodiesel. The option to subscribe is right below the quick-edit box of every page. Look under "Reset Form". Dan, you should increase the alk in the saltwater mixing vat, not directly in your tank. If you are trying to raise alk in your display tank, mix the additive in a cup of RO/DI water, add a little bit, wait an hour and test the alkalinity. If still low, add a little more, test an hour later, and so on. Having this number leap upward to acceptable levels is rather harsh on the livestock. Most products have a measurement listed on the container, so you can figure out exact how much to dose to get the numbers you want to attain. It would still be wise to dose half of that, wait and test, until you are more experienced and know what to expect.

03/22/2006, 08:11 PM	#16
Dan Thrash Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 578	thanks Marc! i dont have any livestock yet...just curing some rock outside of the tank...so i plan on dosing before it goes into the tank. i guess i just didnt want to be stuck with a ridiculously high pH that i'll have to get down with another additive.

03/22/2006, 09:59 PM	#17
dsquared Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: arkansas Posts: 161	melev, I just tested a 50 gal bag. I use salifert kits...6.7dKh..2.40 meq/L Dave

03/22/2006, 10:44 PM	#18
aquaconnect Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Southwest Missouri Posts: 730	My TM has been testing out perfect, 9.7dkh, 400 calcium, pH 8.0 @ sg 1.025, temp 77. My reef is really turned around. I switched from the 'evil' Kent to IO because that was all I had access to at the time of the crash, and now TM salt looks even better and my corals are responding better than using IO. Absolutly no corals slimed while I did my water change like they sometimes do, and my Acan's came out to feed during the water change. __________________ Bryopsis is the devil!!!!! I also have a new LE coral called 'The Big VD' that's going to sweep the nation! Current Tank Info: 1 gallon pico with 1,000 watt Helios 20K.

03/22/2006, 10:46 PM	#19
old salty Genius Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: The Island of Misfit Toys Posts: 3,131	Marc, Perhaps it's not the salt itself. I just switched to Marine Environment; pretty much the top of the line marine salt. I mixed up a batch, and with a Salifert test kit, it read 2 dKH. This seemed really strange to me, so I went ahead and contacted the manufacturer (AquaCraft.) They informed me that the Salifert test kits (and other hobbiest ones) are not capable of accurately measuring the alkalinity due to the way these test kits measure. Could it be that Kent is using an alkalinity compound which Salifert test kits are incapable of measuring? __________________ "The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers." Thomas Jefferson Current Tank Info: Out of the marine aquarium hobby

03/22/2006, 11:02 PM	#20
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	No. That is a nice way of saying 'You are a mere hobbyist and simply can't understand the complexities of saltwater testing." Did this person offer you an alternate kit that will read his salt accurately? Something you can bet upon is if there ever was a salt that Salifert can't test, Habib will crank out a new kit just for it. Check with RHF in the Chemistry forum if you need more input. He's our local expert, as far as I'm concerned.

03/22/2006, 11:10 PM	#21
aquaconnect Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Southwest Missouri Posts: 730	I agree with melev on this one. Too many people with many, many different tests looked at the salt. Besides, even cheap tests will get it close or so so normally. I think if it's off the charts with a cheap test, you know to dig deeper on the issue. At least you are testing, and that's a great start to insure your tank. In my case with all the tests I did, my cheap test didn't even measure any dkh. __________________ Bryopsis is the devil!!!!! I also have a new LE coral called 'The Big VD' that's going to sweep the nation! Current Tank Info: 1 gallon pico with 1,000 watt Helios 20K.

03/23/2006, 11:00 AM	#23
slinger Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 36	I posted this on our local boards, and I thought I'd share it with the community at large... Just to provide a counterpoint to the alk level problems others are seeing, I decided to test the two buckets of Kent salt that I had to check their alkalinity and PH levels. The first bucket (A) is an older white label Kent salt bucket, and is about a year old and only has about 25% of the salt left. The second bucket (B) was purchased a week ago from DNA and is the new yellow label bucket with bagged salt sealed with a zip tie inside, and was unopened until this test. In both cases I mixed up about a gallon of water to 1.025 s.g. at 78 degrees for about ten minutes. I then took PH and alkalinity readings using Fastest kits (alas I don't have Salifert). Results: Bucket A - PH: 8.2, ALK: 11.2 dKH Bucket B - PH: 8.2, ALK: 7.0 dKH I then mixed up a 30 gallon batch of salt from the yellow label bucket B and let it mix overnight and redid the test, and the results were the same. While 7.0 is not that high for alkalinity, it's not too terrible either, so in this case the new Kent salt doesn't have as much of a problem as those who are seeing dKH values of 1.0 or lower. Just FYI... -Robert Hildinger