50,000 litre tank in a boutique hotel (Bangkok , Thailand)

[Museet]

I didn't find any easy way to post pictures from my computer right now. I have done a build thread in this Swedish forum. If you like to see the sand filter its on page 2 in this thread: http://saltvattensguiden.se/topic/43...comment-540240

[sirichok]

Originally Posted by Museet

I haven't seen any negative effects on the corals using silica sand in the sand filters. But, the sand in both the sand pressure filters were used a while before we switched the tank into reef tanks. So I can't say if there is any initial effects if you start with new sand.

Another important thing is that silica might leak from the silica sand if the sand gets anaerobic. By accident one filter pump was turned off every night for a month, and we saw the silica level rise on all the ICP tests we did. When we discovered that and let the pump go 24/7 the silica level slowly dropped down again.



We use regular pool filters, about 6000-10000 L/h. Not sure they do much good in a reef tank, but as a filter for lanthanum chloride it has worked well.

Thanks for such useful information and fast response . How deep is your reef tank and what lights do you use ? What is your photo period ?


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[Museet]

Originally Posted by sirichok

Thanks for such useful information and fast response . How deep is your reef tank and what lights do you use ? What is your photo period ?


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No worries!

We have two larger tank with corals, both are around 180 cm deep.
One of the tanks, the better one, we use mostly metal halides. Three 1000 watts and some 400 watts. We are trying out 3 Pacific sun Kryos 300W LED over the other tank, together with 3 Heliospectra LX 600W(for green houses, very much red light). The Kryos is mostly white and blue, and more like a spotlight. Don't spread the light much at all. But it will probably push down some light to 3 meters depth or more, but on a small area.

We might develop a spectra for the Heliospectra LX600W, but it will probably not be ready this year. I can get back with info when I know more.

[Museet]

The light are on 100% about 8 hour a day.

[sirichok]

Originally Posted by Museet

About phosphate. I don't know what levels the tank is at, but we have had good results with lanthanum chloride. But we've been very careful and dosed very small amounts. We have small sand pressure filters(about 6000 l/h) with silica sand, and connected a small hose/air tube to the inlet to the sand filter. And dosed LaCl(2-8 g per 5 litre RO water) with dosing pump. This way we lowered the phosphate when the tanks were new and we've added lots of dry live rock(which leaked some PO4). Nowadays the PO4 is under 0,1 ppm so we use aluminum or iron based phosphate remover instead.

Important to know is that some people suspect their fish, especially tangs, suffered from lanthanum chloride poisoning. That's why we've been dosing so small amount at the time and always in front of a filter. Just so you know before trying

Hi David

What is the quantity of Lanthanum chloride that you dose per day and how frequent ? I understand that the concentration is 2-8 g per 5 L of RO water but how much of 5 L do you dose per day ? Thanks for your helpful advise .


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[sirichok]

Originally Posted by Museet

I will do my best. Hope to learn some from you as well



How are the water parameters in your tank right now? We have had great help from Triton for a couple of years now, and we've improved our water quality a lot. So Triton lab is a good choice IMO. Have you tried their ICP test?



Looked through the last pages of this thread during the day. Great collection of fish! We are not near those numbers of fish or species. But we do have a lot of coral species. I'm more of a coral guy than fish..

I would say you'll need a lot of corals to keep them for being too disturbed from fish picking at them(lots of corals per fish). But you never know, you have to try to find out.



Looking forward to more info and post from this tank!



/ David

Hi David

Here is my data of the natural sea water that we use in our aquarium which we sent to Triton for testing :

https://www.triton-lab.de/en/showroo...icp-oes/18746/



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[Museet]

Originally Posted by sirichok

Hi David

Here is my data of the natural sea water that we use in our aquarium which we sent to Triton for testing :

https://www.triton-lab.de/en/showroo...icp-oes/18746/



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That ICP test looked okey, just the phosphate and silicate thats high.
And my guess is your salinity is a bit low (many of the salts like Na, Ca, Mg, Sr are a bit low). So if you increase the salinity a little I think those parameters will look better on the next test.

For the silicate/silicon(Si) you might want to see if it's going up, stays or sinks. If the Si keep on increasing I think you should try to figure out where it comes from. Do you have silica sand? Any filter materials like Siporax? What kind of rocks do you have?
I saw you got some Al99 for phosphate removal. I think it might also take up some Si, so thats a good think to use I think.
I don't know at what levels Si becomes bad for the corals, I don't think you need to panic. But keep an eye on it so it doesn't continue to increase.

You also have a lot of phosphate. My guess is most of the stony corals won't like that too much.

About the Lanthanum Chloride(LaCl). We dosed it like this. 2-8 grams(depending on the PO4 level) in 5 litres RO water was dosed with a dosing pump into the inlet of the sand pressure filter in a tank with about 10000 litres. From our meassures 1 gram LaCl took away 0,01 ppm phosphate in 10000 litres. Not exactly, but on avarage.
We use this type of LaCl:
Lantan(III)klorid heptahydrat ≥98% GPR RECTAPUR®


The La will bind to the PO4 and the water becomes clowdy. That white stuff you want to get out of the tank. Thats why we only dose infront of a filter. Also, you don't want to dose too much at the time so the La ion goes into the the gills of a fish before it binds with a PO4 molecule. There have been reports of fish deaths probably because of overdosing LaCl. But used carefully it will be the best way I can think of to lower the phosphate in a tank with 50m3 water.

There might be other good ways of filtering precipitate from LaCl, so maybe you don't need a sand filter. If you search some online you'll find a lot about LaCl and reef tanks.


Hope you understand my Swedish type of English. Just ask again otherwise

/ David

[SantaMonica]

I wish we had something big enough to offer, but nobody in the world makes a scrubber that will do much for 50,000 gallons, no matter how much it grows.

A nice custom build would be fun to watch, however.

[sirichok]

Originally Posted by Museet

That ICP test looked okey, just the phosphate and silicate thats high.

And my guess is your salinity is a bit low (many of the salts like Na, Ca, Mg, Sr are a bit low). So if you increase the salinity a little I think those parameters will look better on the next test.



For the silicate/silicon(Si) you might want to see if it's going up, stays or sinks. If the Si keep on increasing I think you should try to figure out where it comes from. Do you have silica sand? Any filter materials like Siporax? What kind of rocks do you have?

I saw you got some Al99 for phosphate removal. I think it might also take up some Si, so thats a good think to use I think.

I don't know at what levels Si becomes bad for the corals, I don't think you need to panic. But keep an eye on it so it doesn't continue to increase.



You also have a lot of phosphate. My guess is most of the stony corals won't like that too much.



About the Lanthanum Chloride(LaCl). We dosed it like this. 2-8 grams(depending on the PO4 level) in 5 litres RO water was dosed with a dosing pump into the inlet of the sand pressure filter in a tank with about 10000 litres. From our meassures 1 gram LaCl took away 0,01 ppm phosphate in 10000 litres. Not exactly, but on avarage.

We use this type of LaCl:

Lantan(III)klorid heptahydrat ≥98% GPR RECTAPUR





The La will bind to the PO4 and the water becomes clowdy. That white stuff you want to get out of the tank. Thats why we only dose infront of a filter. Also, you don't want to dose too much at the time so the La ion goes into the the gills of a fish before it binds with a PO4 molecule. There have been reports of fish deaths probably because of overdosing LaCl. But used carefully it will be the best way I can think of to lower the phosphate in a tank with 50m3 water.



There might be other good ways of filtering precipitate from LaCl, so maybe you don't need a sand filter. If you search some online you'll find a lot about LaCl and reef tanks.





Hope you understand my Swedish type of English. Just ask again otherwise



/ David

Hi

Thanks for such useful information. We just bought a sand filter for the purpose of removing phosphate . Can you clarify a bit further about how much of lacl3 do you dose ? You say that you mix 2-8 grams of lacl3 to 5 L of RO water , when you dose that 5 L , what is the frequency ? for example do you dose 5l in 24 hours ?

Thanks for your help !


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[Museet]

Originally Posted by sirichok

Hi

Thanks for such useful information. We just bought a sand filter for the purpose of removing phosphate . Can you clarify a bit further about how much of lacl3 do you dose ? You say that you mix 2-8 grams of lacl3 to 5 L of RO water , when you dose that 5 L , what is the frequency ? for example do you dose 5l in 24 hours ?

Thanks for your help !


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Hi!
Okey! Sounds good. I think you will find a sand filter useful for your type of tank. Yes, we mixed that dose with RO water and then just let a slow dosing pump dose until it was finished. I think it took about three or four hours.
But try to measure before and the day after with a phosphate test like Hanna Checker Low range. If you start with a small dose you can see how much effect one gram have and then you can calculate after that.
So our routine was, dose for 3-4 hours and then bashwash the filter.

Hope the information helps!

/ David

[sirichok]

Originally Posted by Museet

Hi!

Okey! Sounds good. I think you will find a sand filter useful for your type of tank. Yes, we mixed that dose with RO water and then just let a slow dosing pump dose until it was finished. I think it took about three or four hours.

But try to measure before and the day after with a phosphate test like Hanna Checker Low range. If you start with a small dose you can see how much effect one gram have and then you can calculate after that.

So our routine was, dose for 3-4 hours and then bashwash the filter.



Hope the information helps!



/ David

Thanks , that was very useful for controlling phosphate . How do you get your nitrate down ? I am having problem controlling nitrate too .


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[Museet]

Originally Posted by sirichok

Thanks , that was very useful for controlling phosphate . How do you get your nitrate down ? I am having problem controlling nitrate too .


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We use different ways to control the nitrates. I like to use macro algae but also some carbon source (we use ethanol). And we use it more long term, the results might take a couple of months. So I like setting up dosing pumps and add carbon source over the day, a little at the time, and adjust after the need.

For more powerful nitrate reduction we use sulphur nitrate filters. Those can be really effective but might take a while to startup and find the right settings for. I think they lower the KH some as well, so you need adjust for that. I think many people are a bit afraid of the sulphur filters, but so far we haven't had any problems.

But the easiest thing to start trying, if you're not already does it, is to add some carbon source every day. Just start with a low dose. For example we add 30ml ethanol 40% to 26000 litres a day now. We started this week. I'll measure the nitrate later this week and adjust depending on the results.

[sirichok]

Originally Posted by Museet

We use different ways to control the nitrates. I like to use macro algae but also some carbon source (we use ethanol). And we use it more long term, the results might take a couple of months. So I like setting up dosing pumps and add carbon source over the day, a little at the time, and adjust after the need.



For more powerful nitrate reduction we use sulphur nitrate filters. Those can be really effective but might take a while to startup and find the right settings for. I think they lower the KH some as well, so you need adjust for that. I think many people are a bit afraid of the sulphur filters, but so far we haven't had any problems.



But the easiest thing to start trying, if you're not already does it, is to add some carbon source every day. Just start with a low dose. For example we add 30ml ethanol 40% to 26000 litres a day now. We started this week. I'll measure the nitrate later this week and adjust depending on the results.

What was your initial reading of nitrate before adding ethanol 40% ?


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[sirichok]

Originally Posted by Museet

We use different ways to control the nitrates. I like to use macro algae but also some carbon source (we use ethanol). And we use it more long term, the results might take a couple of months. So I like setting up dosing pumps and add carbon source over the day, a little at the time, and adjust after the need.



For more powerful nitrate reduction we use sulphur nitrate filters. Those can be really effective but might take a while to startup and find the right settings for. I think they lower the KH some as well, so you need adjust for that. I think many people are a bit afraid of the sulphur filters, but so far we haven't had any problems.



But the easiest thing to start trying, if you're not already does it, is to add some carbon source every day. Just start with a low dose. For example we add 30ml ethanol 40% to 26000 litres a day now. We started this week. I'll measure the nitrate later this week and adjust depending on the results.

Your sulphur reactor , was it custom made or you can just buy it off the shelf . Do you have any recommendations?


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[Museet]

Originally Posted by sirichok

What was your initial reading of nitrate before adding ethanol 40% ?


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Now it's about 10ppm nitrate and I want to lower it to about 2ppm. So it's not that much, and I like to adjust the value quite slow. You will notice bacteria growth if you add higher amounts of carbon source, and too much bacteria bloom might lead to lack of oxygen in the tank. So therefor I think it's a good idea to start with a low dose and increase slowly to find the right amount of carbon source for a tank.

[Museet]

Originally Posted by sirichok

Your sulphur reactor , was it custom made or you can just buy it off the shelf . Do you have any recommendations?


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We have rebuilt other types of filters into sulphur filters. They can be done pretty easily, As long as the flow is right(low flow) and you can get anaerobic conditions in a filter, it might work. Also it needs an overflow.

So I can't recommend any brand. But I do like many of Deltecs reactors and filters.
Here's a nitrate filter from Deltec:
https://www.theaquariumsolution.com/product/3029/89
This filter is using a carbon source, but could easily be switched into a sulphur filter. Or you could run it like they decribe as well, might be as effective, I don't know.

/ David

[sirichok]

Installing a sand filter with dosing pump ( lanthanum chloride)to counter phosphate problem .


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[notoriousreef]

What a thread and what a build! Thank you so much for sharing, its been a complete blast seeing you take this from shambles to luxury!

[Museet]

Originally Posted by sirichok

Installing a sand filter with dosing pump ( lanthanum chloride)to counter phosphate problem .


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Exciting!

What type of material/sand will you use? AFM, silica sand or someting else?

/ David

[sirichok]

Originally Posted by Museet

Exciting!



What type of material/sand will you use? AFM, silica sand or someting else?



/ David

I am using silica sand for this purpose . Your sand filter is installed on a close loop or open loop ?


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[Museet]

Originally Posted by sirichok

I am using silica sand for this purpose . Your sand filter is installed on a close loop or open loop ?


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Okey. Just make sure you keep the sand in oxigenated water(avoid water/filter standing still with water in it). Can't say why, but those times our filters have been standing still(and then started again), we have gotten increased silica values in our ICP tests. As long as it's water flows through the filter there hasn't been that kind of increase.

Not sure what you mean by open loop. Our two filters take in water from close to the bottom of the tank and release the water to the tank. I guess it's a closed loop then
The backwash water goes out where we can choose to save the water and recycle it or let it go to the drain.

I would start the filter with a proper backwash, to get silica dust out from the sand.

/ David

[BruceWayne]

Following

[Monkeyfish]

Stalker ^

[sirichok]

Originally Posted by Museet

Okey. Just make sure you keep the sand in oxigenated water(avoid water/filter standing still with water in it). Can't say why, but those times our filters have been standing still(and then started again), we have gotten increased silica values in our ICP tests. As long as it's water flows through the filter there hasn't been that kind of increase.



Not sure what you mean by open loop. Our two filters take in water from close to the bottom of the tank and release the water to the tank. I guess it's a closed loop then

The backwash water goes out where we can choose to save the water and recycle it or let it go to the drain.



I would start the filter with a proper backwash, to get silica dust out from the sand.



/ David

Thanks for your advise . Now I am running the sand filter system and start dosing lanthanum chloride slowly over a period of hours per day and hopefully the phosphate will come down sooner than later .
As for nitrate , I have started dosing vodka and and controlling feeding , so far it has come down slowly to around 25 ppm and hopefully will be able to settle around 2-3 ppm .


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[Museet]

Originally Posted by sirichok

Thanks for your advise . Now I am running the sand filter system and start dosing lanthanum chloride slowly over a period of hours per day and hopefully the phosphate will come down sooner than later .
As for nitrate , I have started dosing vodka and and controlling feeding , so far it has come down slowly to around 25 ppm and hopefully will be able to settle around 2-3 ppm .


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Nice work! Sounds like your are on the way. Just let the changes take some time, not lowering the PO4 or NO3 too fast. I find it easier to level out/keep values stable if the lowering has been slow.

I would aim for 5ppm NO3. If you come close to 0 you might get cyanobacteria, so I like some margin.

Great to get an update. Looking forward to the progress.

/ David