Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[Mmiller40gt]

Really? U think people should wait a year to allow the corals to adjust to new lighting?? For those with thousands of $$ in corals that comment alone is a deal breaker. What about adding a new coral? Gotta wait a year for it to come back? I can buy a coral that came out of the ocean yesterday and within a week it will b adjust and growing under halides.

Wanna spell the end of LEDs? Get the companies to advertise that "in just one year, you will Start to have the same results as a metal halide". Lol. Smh

[gskidmor]

That comment has a lot of truth to it - in a world that wants immediate results having to wait that long to get corals to grow good would make many abandon the hobby. I do have to say though that since I've got the Radion dialed in I've been getting decent results - though it's been less than a month [since I got it dialed in such that it doesn't immediately kill everything in the top half of the tank]. I will have to start taking full tank shots to track progress. I really think people cook their corals with the LEDs and don't realize it not to mention all the questions about spectrum that dog LEDs...

[gskidmor]

What I think would help this thread is if those that are having great success with LED would post some pics and give some details on what settings they're using...

[advancebc29]

I feel that my post are never read on this site. If you switch from one light tech to another and completely ignore spectrum like I am sure most of you have that switched to led then switched back are doing you are going to have all sorts of issues. You can have the same negative results by changing to different bulbs in a t5 setup or changing to a completely different halide bulb.
Long story short our tanks don't like major change and a major change in spectrum light output is a major change. If you look around you will see some major success of reef tanks switching to LEDs with great results because they tried to match the spectrum output of their current lights

Sent from my phone so ignore mistakes

[KCombs]

this is really a pretty good discussion with intelligent and cooler heads prevailing...

would all the contributors and lurkers please give this thread a good rating...
I'm voting 5 star....
I especially like the thorough and polite rebuttals from the pro LED hobbyist

[KCombs]

Originally Posted by Mmiller40gt

Ok lets do my tank, we can skip the rest of the pump and just focus on lights.
My maristar was 6 months old with lumatek switchable ballasts, ebay delivered for 250.
I picked up a 1/4 HP chiller for 75$ local. Pulls 400 watts 3 X a day for 30 min each cycle. (I really dont need it, i just like to keep the tank within 1 degree, without it it would not go over 82).

Using the RC electric calculator
Cost of lighting to run 650 wattsX 10 hours X0.078 = per month 15.42$
Cost of chiller (same math as above) 1.42 per month

Replace that with 200 watts of LED (and the light output wont be near equivalent, but that aside) Would cost me 4.74 per month. Total saving for me to switch 12.10$ a month.

Lights cost me 45$ each for 2 pheonix and 19$ each for 2 T5's. Yearly cost of bulbs is 128$.

Two Radions would cost me 1500$ and consume 140 watts each. So lets see where MY break even point is. 10 hours a day @ 7.8 cents per kwh

Year one of MH total cost (chiller included) electric plus buying the unit 452.08
Year one two Radions and electric 1579.68

Year two MH replacing bulbs and previous year cost 782.16
Year two Radions with previous year cost 1659.36

Year 3 MH cost, again replacing bulbs and including past years cost 1112.24
Year 3 Radion cost with previous years 1739.04

Year 4 MH cost (same as above) 1442.32
Year 4 Radion (same as above) 1818.72

Year 5 MH cost (same) 1772.40
Year 5 Radion (same) 1898.40

Year 6 MH cost (same) 2102.48
Year 6 Radion cost (same) 1978.08


So 6 years to finally save 100$. That is *if* they last that long and *if* they provide 100% of the results. You could also do the same math with a cheaper unit but you still looking at 3+ years to break even. By that time something newer and better will be out and your LED fixture will be obsolete.

So Ill wait 6 years and when the rest of yall have sunk millions into this, then maybe there will be something worth ditching the tried and true gold standard for. Again this is JUST MY situation. I know some pay 3-4X my electric rate. There are others in Texas that are pay half of what I do. There is even a new plan where nights are free so many people have signed up and running the lights on a reverse schedule and paying nothing, notta for electric lighting.

I almost forgot one more point. My friend upgraded (if you call it that) his 280 to leds. Now he has 2 300 watt heaters running during the lighting hours to keep his tank from dropping below 77. That is 600 watts an hour wasted.

many of us appreciate that breakdown....
regardless of whatever postition one has, that took effort...
thanks

[gskidmor]

is that sarcasm I detect

[Goldcoastreefs]

Ok I know there are a lot of you who want to believe In LEDs I was one as well. But in my experience they do not perform as well as mh. Now if you have a tank full of zoas and Lps with some sps you may not notice but with a sps tank you will see... At least I did. Now I want to know for a 48x24x12 frag tank would I be better off with a power module or 2 more 250w radiums. I am already done with LEDs untill somthing drastically changes but the results I have seen for noe dosent compare the the halides

[my2girls]

Originally Posted by Mmiller40gt

Really? U think people should wait a year to allow the corals to adjust to new lighting?? For those with thousands of $$ in corals that comment alone is a deal breaker. What about adding a new coral? Gotta wait a year for it to come back? I can buy a coral that came out of the ocean yesterday and within a week it will b adjust and growing under halides.

Wanna spell the end of LEDs? Get the companies to advertise that "in just one year, you will Start to have the same results as a metal halide". Lol. Smh

You completely missed my point. Two weeks, a month, two months is too soon to switch back. A mature tank with big SPS colonies need plenty of time to acclimate to the new intensity and spectrum of LEDs. A freshly cut frag will take time to start growing under any kind of light.

Yes, I agree, some of the high end LED fixtures are still expensive. There are many brands that are affordable and of course DIY. So I don't buy the up front cost BS. A Chinese black box LED is $200 that covers 24x24". It has as much controllability as your radium

[gskidmor]

but it ignores the initial cost of a MH system while stating the inital cost of a LED system so it's not complete, so let me finish it:

Using the RC electric calculator
Cost of lighting to run 650 wattsX 10 hours X0.078 = per month 15.42$
Cost of chiller (same math as above) 1.42 per month

Replace that with 200 watts of LED (and the light output wont be near equivalent, but that aside) Would cost me 4.74 per month. Total saving for me to switch 12.10$ a month.

Lights cost me 45$ each for 2 pheonix and 19$ each for 2 T5's. Yearly cost of bulbs is 128$.

Two Radions would cost me 1500$ and consume 140 watts each. So lets see where MY break even point is. 10 hours a day @ 7.8 cents per kwh
A geisman 48" with 2x250 a some T-5 would cost: $1470
http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/lig...2x250-watt-hqi

Year one of MH total cost (chiller included) electric plus buying the unit 1470+452.08=1922
Year one two Radions and electric 1579.68

Year two MH replacing bulbs and previous year cost 2252
Year two Radions with previous year cost 1659.36

just by year two you're already saving a lot unless someone knows where to get free MH setups...

[Nanofreak79]

Originally Posted by bhazard451

You're right. My DIY doesn't match a Radion it performance. It BEATS it handily, has more power at 180w full blast, and has more color options, for less than half the price.

Not super clean?
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2183576

^ I like your style , and you seem very knowledgable. This guy here seems to be jumping from led thread to led thread spewing useless information. Yes, we understand you don't like them......but bring something to the table, you have little experience with anything other than "what you've heard", or "myfriend"kinda info. I personally hate saving electricity, as well as money.....oh yea and I love goldfish LOL!

Originally Posted by Mmiller40gt

FWIW my current tank has been up less than 3 months. Not super clean, but close. I need to get the 2 wires straight. The desk on the side no longer has 2 part as I replaced with a calcium reactor.
There are some brown frags. I bought a guys LED frag tank complete with 60 frags. I moved them all under the halides and within a week they started chaning color and growing. They were growing under his setup by slowly and brown. Then I flipped the tank, pumps, and DIY led setup for what I paid for it. My lady had ordered a nice led fixture but after seeing the color change of the frags in the first week called and canceled. She is keeping the halides on her tank.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFjGtckvpvc&hd=1

[James77]

Originally Posted by my2girls

We are practically neighbors. I completely disagree with you on the heat issue. Like I said, you are probably good at managing it.

I dont need fans or a chiller anymore. The house stays cool. Halide fixtures blow like the winds of Hades. Hot as H3LL! No thanks, been there, done that.

I really dont do much to manage it. My controller kicks the fans on when the tank hits a certaqin temp. The room can be uncomfortable in the hot summer, but the AC fixes that in no time and that would be going on anyways. But really, most people that have halides do not run a chiller. I have been to only one local reffers house wherte he had one running up in New Hampshire. Well, not all that local

[BigKahuna]

The chiller electricity costs are also underestimated as the heat they output will also raise the ambient temperature of the house which will cost more to cool as well, unless it vents externally. The flip side is that a MH system probably uses the heater less but it would appear most people have more trouble keeping tanks cool than the reverse. I currently don't have a chiller on my tank, my old one did, and the highest it reached this summer was 81 degrees with two Radions over it. With MH's there is no way I'd be able to go chillerless.

[James77]

I've never run a chiller, and actually have it wokred so that my heater almost never comes on except for the coldest of months. I let my tank hit the mid 80s daily in the summer....ther is nothing wrong with temp swings if acclimated to that. There are also reflectors that can be hung higher, almost wiping out the raiant heat which is the problem with halides.

[gskidmor]

I don't think there is anything wrong with temp swings - bring a thermometer while you scuba and you will notice 8 degree or more temp swings from 2 in the afternoon as compared to a night dive...and look at corals at low tide - the sun is beating down on them and those temps are sometimes 100+ but I'm now way off topic

[BigKahuna]

Originally Posted by James77

I let my tank hit the mid 80s daily in the summer....ther is nothing wrong with temp swings if acclimated to that.

I can see why you don't feel like you need a chiller if you let your tank hit the mid 80's daily. Hey if it works for you that's great but most reefers probably would be a little stressed to let the tank swing daily up that high, maybe more so than your livestock

[James77]

Originally Posted by BigKahuna

I can see why you don't feel like you need a chiller if you let your tank hit the mid 80's daily. Hey if it works for you that's great but most reefers probably would be a little stressed to let the tank swing daily up that high, maybe more so than your livestock

Most reefers feel stressed because they believe the animals we keep need a rock solid temperature to make it. Nothing could be further from the truth, and it actually sets them up for disaster should something go wrong. It was by accident that my tank hit 87 one day...I had left the halides on "manual on" by accident with no AC, or normally they would have shut off at 84( THE upper limit according to common belief). The tank never looked happier. After that, I have had my tank approach 88, and that is when I kill the halides. But even then, I truly see zero signs of stress from my animals. However if they went to that temp from a tank that is kept at a rcok solid 80 with a combo of chiller and heater, most would perish.

I could run the tank cooler if I wanted, but I dont even kick the fans on until it hits 83-84 on my tanks. The swings that high are only in the hottest of summer. The peak this year has been 86 tank temp. This is also with a velcoity 110 watt pump, known for adding heat. I could ditch that and the pemp would easily fall 2-4 degrees. Not all my heat is halides, though it is obvious from temp graphs when they come on.

[Mmiller40gt]

Originally Posted by gskidmor

but it ignores the initial cost of a MH system while stating the inital cost of a LED system so it's not complete, so let me finish it:

Using the RC electric calculator
Cost of lighting to run 650 wattsX 10 hours X0.078 = per month 15.42$
Cost of chiller (same math as above) 1.42 per month

Replace that with 200 watts of LED (and the light output wont be near equivalent, but that aside) Would cost me 4.74 per month. Total saving for me to switch 12.10$ a month.

Lights cost me 45$ each for 2 pheonix and 19$ each for 2 T5's. Yearly cost of bulbs is 128$.

Two Radions would cost me 1500$ and consume 140 watts each. So lets see where MY break even point is. 10 hours a day @ 7.8 cents per kwh
A geisman 48" with 2x250 a some T-5 would cost: $1470
http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/lig...2x250-watt-hqi

Year one of MH total cost (chiller included) electric plus buying the unit 1470+452.08=1922
Year one two Radions and electric 1579.68

Year two MH replacing bulbs and previous year cost 2252
Year two Radions with previous year cost 1659.36

just by year two you're already saving a lot unless someone knows where to get free MH setups...

I included what I paid for my lights and chiller into the math. Also the maristar s shipping right now completefor 599$ and is basically identical So you can cut your price waaay down for one of the best units $$ can buy. That's puts your break even at least 3 years out

[Mike31154]

No, to dumping my LEDs that is.

[AcroporAddict]

I have all leds from halides now. I won't be going back any time soon.

[Mmiller40gt]

Whats the gold standard of RC and the reef community? The TOTM. Where are those guys with the led setups? I don't see them? Maybe I missed one. When you start seeing several Tank of the month winners running LEDs then you can disregard the led naysayers.

[James77]

There are a couple TOTM that have switched to LEDS...but that is a gray area, as all the growth and success was from the previous lighting and the LEDs are just now stepping in.

Not saying LEDs are incapable of fantastic SPS tanks....but I'd like to see a good number of LED SPS tanks that started as LEDs and are still LEDs.

[gskidmor]

I've nominated a couple of LED tanks but they didn't win...

Here is one from my local club I nominated for tank of the month:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2198945

Edit: his has had the growth with LEDs

[Mmiller40gt]

Originally Posted by gskidmor

I've nominated a couple of LED tanks but they didn't win...

Here is one from my local club I nominated for tank of the month:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2198945

Edit: his has had the growth with LEDs

That looks great! What is he using?

[gskidmor]

he did it DIY - it looks much better in person...I think it is one of the true drawbacks of LEDs - they don't take pics well unless you do a lot of post-processing

Edit: and I believe it was pretty cheap too. I did PM Lawrence so he might chime in. I know he had tried the chinese LEDs first and they burned evertyhing. He did it DIY and they recovered in a couple of months and growth exploded.

Second edit: and by "don't take pics well" i mean that it can look more red in the pics than to the naked eye - in real life the different colors of the LEDs blend much nicer than the do in the pic