Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[uncleof6]

Originally posted by Reefer2727
Thanks for all the info. I am about to have my tank drilled and have a few questions.

The tank is a 75 gallon with a 35 gallon sump. I am wondering what size holes should I have drilled? And what size bulkhead? I know Bean used a 1" bulkhead and says larger would work. Is it just easier to go with 1.5" bulkhead if all the plumbing will also be 1.5"??

Also, I hear some people say that they have a hard time getting the siphon line going usually due to air trapped in the pipe. Would anyone recommend drilling this siphon drain hole a little lower than the vented open drain and the emergency drain? If so, how much lower?

Thanks again.

I would think that keeping everything 1.5" would be the ticket, but the 1" works fine. Bean used 1" because that was what he had in the tank already. I suspect that the reason the siphon does not start is because the pipe is too deep in the sump. But aside from that, IIRC it was bean that suggested that the Open channel could be moved up a bit to help kick start the siphon. Or at least he said that should probably be ok. IIRC it was like 1/2." It is unfortunate that you only get one shot at getting that right. I do know it is in the thread somewhere.

Jim

[teesquare]

Well, there you have it - 2 opinions... diferent, but the same ....if that makes any sense.
All I know is that if you go to the very first page of the thread, you will get Bean's complete setup - with pics.
T

[peteralexander]

Mflamb do you think you could take a pic of your pipes going under the tank. Would love to see how you have that set up.

[Reefer2727]

Ok...I will have my siphon drain drilled 1/4" lower than the other two holes. Just to clarify when I say siphon drain I am referring to the primary drain that will be valved...not the vented overflow open drain. Correct to drill siphon lower?

What size holes for a 1.5" bulkheads?

Also, I know it has been dealt with before but cant find anything in the thread.

Would I be better off running 1" piping instead of 1.5" if I am planning on running under 750 gph? I am not planning on getting a big return pump. The pumps I am looking at are around 1000 gph before head loss. Just wondering if I will even use the second pipe with a flow around 700. Would it be quieter with 1" piping and definitely uitilizing both pipes?? Or will valving the 1.5" work fine??

So confusing for those that have never had a drilled tank before. Also so hard to find specific info in the thread.

Thanks for the patience.

[teesquare]

Correct on the siphon being lower, but the emergency drain need not be. Either way you can adjust the final height of it as needed.

2-3/8" - but check the bulkheads you will be using... Some are different.
Bean installed 1" bulkheads, and then up-sized the intaked ( flange or "wet" side) to 1-1/2".... At the flow rate of 750 gph - no problem, lots of head room. Quietness....? If you choose the 1-1/2", you may want to place the valve as low as you can ( near the sump) so that the pipe stays filled to that point. If you place the valve high (near tank drain) you may hear the water more because the pipe will not be full, and the water will be turbulent as it crashes/spills/ falls down the pipe.... Make sense?

[Reefer2727]

Thanks teesquare.

So a 2 3/8" for the hole size for a 1.5" bulkhead. Bigger than I thought.

What you say about the valve being as close to the sump as possible makes sense.

Do you think this pipe would be full if it was 1"?

I just saw on a site that a 1.5" bulkhead gives a max of 1300 gph while a 1" bulkhead has a max of 600 gph. Are these numbers accurate?

[teesquare]

www.jehmco.com is a good reference for bulkheads and hole sizes for each
At 1" the likelyhood is that the pipe would be full - if the target was 700 gph
I think the numbers are accurate for a typical drain scenario. But this is not a typical drain.... It is a siphon. I do not know the numbers - but I think you will see greater than 600gph in this application. And, if you install a ball or better - an all plastic gate valve - (make sure whatever you use is FULL FLOW) on the discharge or pressure side of the pump, you should be able to tweak and tune to match any deficit in the 1'' siphon, without relying on the vent. This will be the most quiet set up. If you exceed the siphon such that the vented pipe has to kick in, you will get a trickling sound in that pipe. So, I think the 1" plumbing ( 1" pipe requires 1-3/4'' holes ) will be adequate, without being too big, and "clumsy" to tune, and hide, and will be less difficult to plumb in general. Less money too!
T

[Taqpol]

Hey Bean, I'm going to be installing your overflow system on a 120g over this weekend. I found most of the parts I need at the local home depot, but I could not find a 1.5" sanitary tee or the 1.5"x1" Street elbow. I looked at www.savko.com but their site confuses me and I couldn't tell if they had what i needed or not. Where would you go about getting these parts, or could you tell me how to find them on savko's web site?

[Reefer2727]

Decisions...Cheaper is better but I am not looking really looking to save money. Just want a good safe and quiet set up that won't need more than 1000 gph.

It just seems to me that if you are not using your vented pipe (2nd) is there any point? Will it still be quiet if that 1st pipe isnt running a full siphon??

[teesquare]

If you justify the extra room, and hole sizing, go for the 1-1/2" then. It will allow you more flow if you ever want to upgrade your pump.
If I understand - yes, the point of the vented pipe is for the OH SH$%!!!!! situations. It is a great comfort knowing that there are
Reefer2727
2 redundant safeties in this design. Truly originated by a married man!
Well.... that is what the valve is for. Tune the valve until it is running full.
I prefer gate valves, but others are just fine with ball valves. I find gate valves easier to tune, just FWIW.
T

[teesquare]

Taqpol


http://www.answers.com/topic/sanitary-tee-1

Please see the above link for a picture of a sanitary tee. Note the curved way one leg of the tee joins the other. This is to improve flow under non-pressured applications. You should be able to find them in the plumbing dept. at any Lowe's, Menard's, or Home Depot. This is not a pressure fitting. Look in the SDR (sewer, drain, and run-off) section of plumbing.
Look a the first page of the original thread that bean started all of this with. His pictures are very good.
Hope this helps!
T

[Taqpol]

I know what a sanitary tee is, in fact home depot did have some in ABS but I wanted to get some in PVC.

[teesquare]

It is a stock item at Home depot. You need to find the drainage,a nd non-pressure fittings.
These are required by code - so it just figures they will have them..................
I have never been in a store that sold PVC fittings that did not have san-tees

[dzhuo]

Originally posted by dzhuo
what return pump you guys are using to match the drain rate assuming 1.5" PVC? thx!

Let me rephrase my question slightly, would be Ehiem 1260 be a good fit for the 1.5" drain?

[teesquare]

Just a thought... you can use ABS - it is sized the same as PVC SDR fittings. Being black.... well - it may actually look better than white if seen.
T

[teesquare]

dzhou
What is the flow,at the given static head the the Eheim will produce? Do you have a ump curve for it?

[uncleof6]

Originally posted by Reefer2727
Decisions...Cheaper is better but I am not looking really looking to save money. Just want a good safe and quiet set up that won't need more than 1000 gph.

It just seems to me that if you are not using your vented pipe (2nd) is there any point? Will it still be quiet if that 1st pipe isnt running a full siphon??

The only pipe in beans design that is supposed to be dry, is the emergency pipe (with the upturned elbow) The system should be tuned such that there is some flow in the open channel pipe (with the vent) I remember reading an exact number of what bean's was flowing and I believe it was around 300 -400 gph. But then he is flowing probably 1500 gph or more. It has been a long time since I read the thread cover to cover. My system has been running 2500 + through the drain system. Though I have not figured out the exact number going through the open channel. It only took a minute or two once it kicked in to get it tuned. I played with it a lot. I know sometimes it seems I don't have any problems, but that just isn't true. Should have seen me installing this system on a running tank.

Regards,

Jim

[uncleof6]

Originally posted by Taqpol
I know what a sanitary tee is, in fact home depot did have some in ABS but I wanted to get some in PVC.

Charlotte Pipe and Foundry makes the pvc sanitary tees, and home depot does not carry them, nor does lowes, nor ACE as far as i know. You have to look pretty hard to find some one that does. I can get them locally here, at a LFS, but the supplies are limited

Jim

[dzhuo]

Originally posted by teesquare
dzhou
What is the flow,at the given static head the the Eheim will produce? Do you have a ump curve for it?

Ehiem 1260: Max Pump Output: 635gph, Max Delivery Head: 12'1'', Max Power: 65W

Ehiem 1262: Max Pump Output: 900gph, Max Delivery Head: 11'6'', Max Power: 80W

The tank in question is 150g. For the 1260, I will probably have to close the primary drain 50% in order to match the return rate?

[Taqpol]

Originally posted by teesquare
Just a thought... you can use ABS - it is sized the same as PVC SDR fittings. Being black.... well - it may actually look better than white if seen.
T

Does ABS bond to PVC with the standard PVC glue? I wouldn't mind trying to do the entire setup with ABS/Sch 80 PVC for the gray and black look, but I would be worried about the glues.

What about 1.5"x1" Street Elbow fittings? Those also seem like a specialty part.

[uncleof6]

Originally posted by uncleof6
Charlotte Pipe and Foundry makes the pvc sanitary tees, and home depot does not carry them, nor does lowes, nor ACE as far as i know. You have to look pretty hard to find some one that does. I can get them locally here, at a LFS, but the supplies are limited

Jim

Well since everyone is banging down the doors to find pvc sanitary tees, rather than ABS, I did a 1.5 sec. search and this is the result:

http://www.pexsupply.com/controller.asp?N=200475&c

Taqpol: The answer is no. A special glue is used called "Transition Cement"

[Reefer2727]

Another dumb question.....

With 1.5" plumbing and a return pump that only pumps around 700 gph after headloss. Now after doing some generic research I found that:

1" hole will produce 600 gph.
1.5" hole will produce 1300 gph.

Now when I valve my primary drain (assuming at 1.5" piping) will I be able to get a full siphon going if the valve is closed 50% or more?? Will the extra space in the pipe fill with water or just make lots of noise since the valve is closed too much??

I like the idea of having space to upgrade the pump later with the 1.5" piping versus 1". I am new to this though and don't want to jump in with the huge gph. I don't think my set up will necessitate such a high flow for what I will keep. But if I cant get a full siphon going by valving the 1.5" drain im not sure this will work out well considering the vented pipe would be dry.

Any recommendations?

[teesquare]

You will fill the siphon pipe *IF* you place the valve to regulate the flow out of the siphon LOW... close to the sump as possible.
Leave the valve open, when the siphon starts, you can begin valving down.
T

[Reefer2727]

So the 1.5" piping will work on lower flow set ups? Just needs tweaking?

[teesquare]

Yes - as long as you let the pipe start full siphon, then crank down on the valve to slow it to a reasonable rate for the return pump you will be fine. In theory, only the volume of water that is being returned to the tank can flow out of it.
I say in theory because you must also account for the suction and weight of water in the 1-1/2" pipe as being (at least) the 1300 gph mark- and the return pump being slightly under half that amount.
So the ball valve - as low as possible on the 1-1/2" pipe works to "even things out" a bit.
But it should not be a long term adventure to tune. Again - the method allows for a great deal of "goofs" before an "oops" as you have 2 other pipes that will tell you to adjust the valve via the sound.
T