Replacing skimmer with chaeto?

[rtparty]

What was your experience doing this? Positive? Negative?

[Psychomantix]

Protein skimmers are probably the biggest innovation in the reefing hobby that allows us to keep successful tanks. Chaeto is just algae.

[kuzko]

I've done it successfully in a nano tank but nothing bigger than 10 gallons - would need quite a bit of it I imagine. I have a hang on back "breeder box" that is about 0.8 gallons - has a little LED strip on it and replaced my old HOB refugium that had a corallife nano skimmer. I've actually had the chaeto strip nitrates too low to the point that they wouldn't show up in the API test kits because I forgot to trim it back for about a month. Bonsai acro got a little brownish until I pulled some out. By some I mean I pulled out enough to fill up about a 20 gallon chamber of the sump on my clown breeding setup - which within about 2 weeks grew so much that I've taken the skimmer out of there as well - that's an 80 gallon system so we will see how it works on there. I can post pics in a few but it's nothing fancy.

[rtparty]

Originally Posted by Psychomantix

Protein skimmers are probably the biggest innovation in the reefing hobby that allows us to keep successful tanks. Chaeto is just algae.

How so?

They both do the same thing in the end: remove nutrients. I'd bet chaeto outperforms a skimmer in this regard even.

Problem with most systems is they don't run enough or large enough refugium sections.

Bulk Reef Supply has some awesome videos on chaeto. I recommend watching them

[rtparty]

Originally Posted by kuzko

I've done it successfully in a nano tank but nothing bigger than 10 gallons - would need quite a bit of it I imagine. I have a hang on back "breeder box" that is about 0.8 gallons - has a little LED strip on it and replaced my old HOB refugium that had a corallife nano skimmer. I've actually had the chaeto strip nitrates too low to the point that they wouldn't show up in the API test kits because I forgot to trim it back for about a month. Bonsai acro got a little brownish until I pulled some out. By some I mean I pulled out enough to fill up about a 20 gallon chamber of the sump on my clown breeding setup - which within about 2 weeks grew so much that I've taken the skimmer out of there as well - that's an 80 gallon system so we will see how it works on there. I can post pics in a few but it's nothing fancy.

For the majority of my reefing career I've been limited to nano aquariums. Ran a JBJ nano cube for a very long time. No skimmer, no real fuge. I kept just about anything I wanted outside of super sensitive acros. I would run a shower basket of chaeto when I needed to clean the tank. Worked wonderfully.

I've also ran a couple tanks with skimmers and had good success.

[kuzko]

The only "filtration" I have on this 10 gallon is this little chaeto area.




Seems pretty happy to me.




As long as I keep the chaeto at the "sweet spot" it doesn't strip nitrates too fast. Seems about every 10 days I need to trim it back a bit. If I wait much longer the bonsai acro's start to brown a little bit. Still adjusting a little bit but it's very possible and working pretty well for me so far.

[mcgyvr]

Originally Posted by rtparty

They both do the same thing in the end:

Do they?
One targets organics.. the other inorganics..

psychomantix did an excellent impression of a sleazy skimmer salesman though .. points for that..

[ca1ore]

I do view skimmer and algae as complementary. Skimmer removes about 1/3 of the organics; algae removes the end product nutrients from the other 2/3. Probably not precisely correct, but good enough for government work .... and reef tanks. Completely agree, BTW, that expecting miracles from tiny refugiums is kind of foolish.

[rtparty]

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

Do they?
One targets organics.. the other inorganics..

psychomantix did an excellent impression of a sleazy skimmer salesman though .. points for that..

The end result is what I'm talking about. One removes before they break down, the other after but the end result is the same: less nutrients

[rtparty]

Originally Posted by ca1ore

I do view skimmer and algae as complementary. Skimmer removes about 1/3 of the organics; algae removes the end product nutrients from the other 2/3. Probably not precisely correct, but good enough for government work .... and reef tanks. Completely agree, BTW, that expecting miracles from tiny refugiums is kind of foolish.

I think they can work together as well and that's the best option IMO. But if you can only choose one, which one is it?

[ca1ore]

If only one, and of adequate size, I'd choose a chaeto refugium.

[mcgyvr]

Originally Posted by ca1ore

If only one, and of adequate size, I'd choose a chaeto refugium.

And I'd choose a skimmer.... or an ATS

I think the best thing about a chaeto fuge is that you can make money selling off the scrap chaeto.. I don't think they function all that well in most systems..

[rtparty]

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

And I'd choose a skimmer.... or an ATS

I think the best thing about a chaeto fuge is that you can make money selling off the scrap chaeto.. I don't think they function all that well in most systems..

Mostly because they are too small or not implemented properly. Bulk Reef Supply's testing shows a ball of chaeto with a good light can easily maintain nutrients. The light makes a HUGE difference.

[jda]

Their informercial just showed that three various types of light were all capable of growing enough chaeto to consume what they put in the tank. ...not that they can replace a skimmer. Most of that video was bunk, but the part about just a CFL taking the nutrients to zero just like a Kessil did was probably pretty real.

Skimmers do not get wary, nor fluctuate in delivery. Have you ever tried to maintain a large amount of chaeto? It is REAL work and most people slack off of it after a while. You have to trim, pull it apart, actually export it and when you do, the production will change and nutrient levels will rise for a bit before they come back down. If you do not farm it and pull it apart, it will just stop growing. Massive chaeto requires massive amounts of iron and other trace minerals that are on a whole different level than having just a normal sized amount - these can be replaced ok with supplements, but water changes will spurt new growth even better. If your option also includes massive water changes to help the chaeto, then that might be good. None of this is impossible, but it is not as easy as maintaining a little ball in a reactor.

Keep in the mind that lots of the nasty things that we do not want in our tank, yet get in anyway, bind to organics and get skimmed out. Copper, Aluminum, Tin, Phosphates in some cases - I am missing some. Most of these come in food, but only skimming and large water changes can keep these under control. If you tank suffers from low PH, then you will drive off even less CO2 without a skimmer - chaeto does not keep PH up like other macros.

IMO, skimmer and chaeto are different things for different purposes.... diet and exercise... one gets a bunch on the front end and the other deals with stuff after it is onboard already. You can do OK with just diet or exercise, but everybody is way better off with both.

[ca1ore]

Don't disagree with any of that. My chaeto refugium is almost 40 gallons in volume, lit both from above and underneath, and I do have to dose Fe. I export 5 gallons (loose not packed) of it every two weeks or so and actually take the time to pick mini brittles out of the discard. Not for the fainthearted.

BTW, I also run a large skimmer and ATS.

[jda]

I was 15-20 minutes a few times a week, just making sure that the side and bottom glass was clean just so that the light could get in. Also, selling it sounds better than it really is... after a few months, every local hobbyist and store who needs some will be stocked up and then you just end up throwing it away... which is fine, but it is not a money maker for most folks. I had beat-up 120G glass fuge on a nasty FOWLR and I could pull out 100 quart sized zip locks a week - I did not have enough time to even try and ship all of those for $10 a pop and the scale was overwhelming.

It is true that most function poorly because they are not maintained well, but if you think that BRS kept those tanks pristine as a hobby and not as a job, or that you can do the same for years and years, then you might be really surprised. Again, none of this is impossible, but I cannot stress enough that it is real work. Most think that it is awesome for a few months while their small ball ramps up and everything is clean, tells everybody on the internet how easy it is and then never follow up when real life sets in a few months later and it all stops or they got a part-time job as an aquatic gardener.

I think that you can totally do this, just be realistic about the time commitment and step up your water changes because organic export is still important for reasons other than N and P.

[SAT]

I found the Chaeto wouldn't grow until I added a GFO rector. Now I pull out about a gallon (lightly compressed) per week, which goes in my compost pile after I rinse it. I credit the Chaeto for driving the nitrates down to zero (much less than my LaMotte kit can read) from a previously very high level. I have yet to determine if zero nitrates is a good thing for my tank or not, but it's certainly better than what I had before.

I have run the tank with and without a skimmer and it's not obvious to me whether the skimmer makes any difference. However, it's pretty clear that the skimmer exports less than the Chaeto.

[rtparty]

Originally Posted by jda

Their informercial just showed that three various types of light were all capable of growing enough chaeto to consume what they put in the tank. ...not that they can replace a skimmer. Most of that video was bunk, but the part about just a CFL taking the nutrients to zero just like a Kessil did was probably pretty real.

Skimmers do not get wary, nor fluctuate in delivery. Have you ever tried to maintain a large amount of chaeto? It is REAL work and most people slack off of it after a while. You have to trim, pull it apart, actually export it and when you do, the production will change and nutrient levels will rise for a bit before they come back down. If you do not farm it and pull it apart, it will just stop growing. Massive chaeto requires massive amounts of iron and other trace minerals that are on a whole different level than having just a normal sized amount - these can be replaced ok with supplements, but water changes will spurt new growth even better. If your option also includes massive water changes to help the chaeto, then that might be good. None of this is impossible, but it is not as easy as maintaining a little ball in a reactor.

Keep in the mind that lots of the nasty things that we do not want in our tank, yet get in anyway, bind to organics and get skimmed out. Copper, Aluminum, Tin, Phosphates in some cases - I am missing some. Most of these come in food, but only skimming and large water changes can keep these under control. If you tank suffers from low PH, then you will drive off even less CO2 without a skimmer - chaeto does not keep PH up like other macros.

IMO, skimmer and chaeto are different things for different purposes.... diet and exercise... one gets a bunch on the front end and the other deals with stuff after it is onboard already. You can do OK with just diet or exercise, but everybody is way better off with both.

Take out your first paragraph and I can believe most of what you say. However, BRS provided facts and numbers that weren't bunk. You may not want to believe them because of your disdain for BRS, but that doesn't make them any less true. The stronger lights provided more growth and higher pH. That isn't a theory unless you think BRS lies about everything. In that case, we can't have a solid discussion.

My very first tank was totally filtered by chaeto and live rock/sand. I put a HOB refugium on my tank that held quite a bit of water and chaeto. I had to farm it out monthly as I used a standard T8 fluorescent bulb over it and ran it reverse daylight. It wasn't that much work from what I remember. No more work than cleaning my skimmer cup every few days and tearing the skimmer apart monthly to clean and maintain. I also never dosed iron or other elements to keep it thriving but see where that would be a major benefit. Keeping a FW planted tank was a real eye opener and teacher for me.

On to your part about skimmers removing "a lot" of stuff we don't want. Every study and test I've found shows even the best skimmer remove less than 30% of the DOC in a system. That isn't "a lot" to me. It's like saying I have an air purifier and it only removes 30% of the impurities. That means it leaves 70% for me to breathe. So while better than nothing, it isn't "a lot".

Having said that, I appreciate your input and as of right now I plan to keep my skimmer since I do know that adding chaeto to my sump will also grow other stuff I don't want in my sump. That's the maintenance I don't want. The chaeto harvesting is easy IMO

[jda]

Three types of light took the N and P to zero in their study. They each had the same amount of food to build with - they were each limited in the same way. The ball from the most expensive light weighted more and was larger - true, but tricky and needs explaining. What was in this ball since they all got the same nutrients to build with? What was the difference? Water. That is all. ...but they either were not smart enough to know this (which I doubt) or they left it out since one solution can be purchased for $20 at home depot and another is a product that they sell. Infomercial. I have no venom... these "studies" cost money to make and they need to sell stuff to stay in business. I don't think that they lie, but people need to understand that these are not science. Is the tank away from this whole video different if they said that the Kessil Fuge light grew chaeto with more water in it?

Dr. Holmes-Farley had a nice post of skimmers and metals bound to organics which I wish that I saved a link of. It is true that total organics removed is about 1/3 in total, but these don't enter the N cycle in the same quantity since they have other things bound to them. Nearly all of them get skimmed out since they stick around to get cycled again and again. IIRC, this might have been in a article or thread about Kalk since Kalk is full of impurities that need dealt with. ...ask anybody who turned a skimmer on with copper medication - it all leaves the tank (even one without aragonite for the copper to bind to) in a few days, not just 30%.

[PAXpress]

Even with chaeto I still seem to get some nasty lookin gunk in my skimmer... Maybe my chaeto needs to fill in more or a bigger fuge? For now I'll read and see what others think on this.

[rtparty]

Originally Posted by jda

Three types of light took the N and P to zero in their study. They each had the same amount of food to build with - they were each limited in the same way. The ball from the most expensive light weighted more and was larger - true, but tricky and needs explaining. What was in this ball since they all got the same nutrients to build with? What was the difference? Water. That is all. ...but they either were not smart enough to know this (which I doubt) or they left it out since one solution can be purchased for $20 at home depot and another is a product that they sell. Infomercial. I have no venom... these "studies" cost money to make and they need to sell stuff to stay in business. I don't think that they lie, but people need to understand that these are not science. Is the tank away from this whole video different if they said that the Kessil Fuge light grew chaeto with more water in it?

Dr. Holmes-Farley had a nice post of skimmers and metals bound to organics which I wish that I saved a link of. It is true that total organics removed is about 1/3 in total, but these don't enter the N cycle in the same quantity since they have other things bound to them. Nearly all of them get skimmed out since they stick around to get cycled again and again. IIRC, this might have been in a article or thread about Kalk since Kalk is full of impurities that need dealt with. ...ask anybody who turned a skimmer on with copper medication - it all leaves the tank (even one without aragonite for the copper to bind to) in a few days, not just 30%.

Thank you for the info.

What I learned most in the video was that a strong light on chaeto can increase pH. That goes along with the whole reverse daylight idea we've been taught about for years and years.

I also learned I could spend $20 on a grow light from Amazon and get far better results than a CFL from Home Depot. It actually showed me that the big expensive Kessil isn't needed.

[mcgyvr]

Some interesting articles here..
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-1...ture/index.php
going along with this default reading material..
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-08/rhf/index.php

[ktownhero]

I find that with a fuge full of chaeto, my skimmer basically does nothing. Debating on selling it.

[ktownhero]

Originally Posted by jda

Three types of light took the N and P to zero in their study. They each had the same amount of food to build with - they were each limited in the same way. The ball from the most expensive light weighted more and was larger - true, but tricky and needs explaining. What was in this ball since they all got the same nutrients to build with? What was the difference? Water. That is all. ...but they either were not smart enough to know this (which I doubt) or they left it out since one solution can be purchased for $20 at home depot and another is a product that they sell. Infomercial. I have no venom... these "studies" cost money to make and they need to sell stuff to stay in business. I don't think that they lie, but people need to understand that these are not science. Is the tank away from this whole video different if they said that the Kessil Fuge light grew chaeto with more water in it?

Dr. Holmes-Farley had a nice post of skimmers and metals bound to organics which I wish that I saved a link of. It is true that total organics removed is about 1/3 in total, but these don't enter the N cycle in the same quantity since they have other things bound to them. Nearly all of them get skimmed out since they stick around to get cycled again and again. IIRC, this might have been in a article or thread about Kalk since Kalk is full of impurities that need dealt with. ...ask anybody who turned a skimmer on with copper medication - it all leaves the tank (even one without aragonite for the copper to bind to) in a few days, not just 30%.

You need to chill out. They did use a $20 Amazon bulb... And they showed that it was significantly better than a standard bulb, almost as good as the Kessil. And if you don't understand that light intensity and spectrum can have different affects on how something grows, then you're in the wrong hobby my friend...

[d0ughb0y]

Originally Posted by jda

Three types of light took the N and P to zero in their study. They each had the same amount of food to build with - they were each limited in the same way. The ball from the most expensive light weighted more and was larger - true, but tricky and needs explaining. What was in this ball since they all got the same nutrients to build with? What was the difference? Water. That is all. ...but they either were not smart enough to know this (which I doubt) or they left it out since one solution can be purchased for $20 at home depot and another is a product that they sell. Infomercial. I have no venom... these "studies" cost money to make and they need to sell stuff to stay in business. I don't think that they lie, but people need to understand that these are not science. Is the tank away from this whole video different if they said that the Kessil Fuge light grew chaeto with more water in it?

Dr. Holmes-Farley had a nice post of skimmers and metals bound to organics which I wish that I saved a link of. It is true that total organics removed is about 1/3 in total, but these don't enter the N cycle in the same quantity since they have other things bound to them. Nearly all of them get skimmed out since they stick around to get cycled again and again. IIRC, this might have been in a article or thread about Kalk since Kalk is full of impurities that need dealt with. ...ask anybody who turned a skimmer on with copper medication - it all leaves the tank (even one without aragonite for the copper to bind to) in a few days, not just 30%.

+1

BRS is nothing more than a bunch of great salesmen. Not saying that it is good or bad, but always take what they present with a grain of salt and not blindly accept it as gospel. I bet they can sell a chest freezer to an eskimo.