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Old 11/18/2010, 06:55 AM   #1
uhuru
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Lightbulb Dendronephthya study group v.2

Over five years ago, Charles Matthews and Chuck Stottlemire started a Dendronephthya spp. study group. This Dendronephthya study group was also responsible for the birth of this non-photosynthetic forum, and several of the participants in that group are still participants here.

Rather than continue the original thread, which got too sidetracked, I want to start a new, more focused thread. This thread is for Dendronephthya owners only. Anyone can read it of course, but please don't post unless you can actually provide real data based on your experience. In other words, this is not the thread to ask questions about how to care for them, whether you have a dendronephthya or not, what is wrong with your dendronephthya, etc. Such posts will be ignored and if possible deleted by moderators.

The goal of this thread is simple. We want to gather data, and then analyze that data. I would like to treat this thread like a collection of medical records. Before trying to analyze anything, lets start collecting data. So, lets try to start with the following guidelines:

1) Before you can post, you must give your:
- Age of system
- Net water volume including sump, fuge, etc
- Dimensions of tank(s) with Dendronephthya
- Biological filtration (biopellets, fuge, etc)
- Mechanical filtration (skimmer, filter sock, etc)
- Chemical filtration (carbon, GFO, ozone, etc)
- Brand of salt(s) used
- Amount and frequency of water changes
- Feeding regimen (what you feed, how much of each type and how often)
- Fish species kept
- Type of food fed to fishes and how often
- Circulation pumps and total gph
- Type of flow (laminar, alternating, random, any combination of these)
- Lighting
- Lighting period
- Other corals kept
- pics of the dendronephthya
--- provide a caption with the pic with your username and D1, D2, etc.
--- in the caption, also provide the date acquired - date expired
--- example:

Uhuru D1 (9/2010 - present)


- optional: FTS

2) After providing a complete "history," please list the problems you have experienced. If you have multiple Dendronephthya, please list each one separately and include a pic for each one if possible. I realize we don't all have pics of the ones we've lost, but from now on let's try to photo document everything. When listing the problems, try to be as detailed as possible.
- example #1: I had a purple Dendronephthya purchased from DD, from now on called Uhuru D1. This specimen started out in full expansion within 24 hours of being placed in the tank. It stayed expanded for the majority of the time for the first 2 weeks. By the third week it was expanding 75% of the time. By the fourth week, only 50% of the time. By the fifth week it stopped expanding. By the sixth week, it was completely limp and polyps and branches were falling off.

- example #2: I had a red Dendronephthya purchased from Blue Zoo, from now on called Uhuru D2. The specimen initially only expanded during darkness. After 1 month it was expanding in response to food as well as darkness. After 2 months it appeared to show increased expansion. After 3 months new polyps were noticed. From 3 - 5 months it continued to show slow growth. At 6 months it stopped growing. By 7 months it started expanding less. By 8 months it appeared smaller. By 9 months it was only 50% of its original size. By 10 months it rarely expanded. By 11 months it was limp and appeared dead.


3) Additional information:

Uhuru D1: During week 3 I doubled the Shellfish Diet dosing because of the decreased expansion. By week 4 it looked worse so I went back to the original dosing.

Uhuru D2: Throughout this time I experimented with different foods but I always consistently used FM Ultra Clam, Ultra Min F, Ultra Seafan and Ultra Min D as well as Reef Nutrition Roti-Feast.

These are just examples, but you get the idea. Even in relative success we have problems, so whether you had it for 2 months or 1 year it doesn't mean you didn't have problems. We will not be listing "successes" because it will only mix up the data. By listing the problems we will be able to infer relative success.

I know, this is a lot to ask, but it is the foundation for our discussion. Within these details we might find common practices that work or don't work.

Lets get started!



Last edited by uhuru; 11/18/2010 at 07:09 AM.
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Old 11/18/2010, 07:21 AM   #2
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Once items 1 - 3 are posted, you can start adding any changes which will be item 4.

example:

Today I started dosing 3 mL/hr of H2O life Nanno9 live phytoplankton through my refrigerated doser.

^^ so that would be a new post, after you've already posted the details of your system and gave a description of your coral.


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Old 11/18/2010, 07:39 AM   #3
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one more thing, please include the temperature and salinity range in your system description


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Old 11/18/2010, 01:59 PM   #4
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i would add to flow: flowrate per sec at the coral

example: flowrate 15cm/sec


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Old 11/18/2010, 03:08 PM   #5
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Yes please add as much detail as possible for flow. I don't know the true rate of mine, but for example I could say mp10 @ 90%, 16" from the coral.

You can also add other tank parameters along with the temp and salinity: Ca, Alk, Nitrates, Phosphates.

If you don't have that information then just say you don't have it.


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Old 11/18/2010, 07:50 PM   #6
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Ok cool. Weekend project. I think this will help us tremendously.


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Old 11/18/2010, 10:51 PM   #7
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maybe a moderator can emped a formular?


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Old 11/19/2010, 09:21 AM   #8
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also be provided with me


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Old 11/20/2010, 12:35 AM   #9
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So it doesnt matters if the dendro is still new in my tank?


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Old 11/20/2010, 06:10 AM   #10
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As long as you give your system description as described above you are encouraged to contribute. It is better to start documenting any problems as soon as possible. If you need advice please do that in a different thread. If you make changes please document that here.


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Old 11/20/2010, 06:27 AM   #11
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Just to clarify a little:

The goal of this thread is to collect data, so it is beneficial to everyone to have information on your Dendronephthya as soon as you have any problems with it.

However this is not the thread to receive advice on the problems. You should ask for advice in a different thread. Once you decide to make changes based on the advice, you should document the changes you made here, and link to the thread where you received the advice. The purpose of that is to keep this thread focused and to make it much easier for people to scan through the data. It doesn't seem like it would matter now, but 5 years from now believe me it will make a big difference.


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Old 11/20/2010, 07:15 AM   #12
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so only post the problem? no discussions on problems, right?


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Old 11/20/2010, 09:18 AM   #13
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Correct. We only want to know what the problem is, and what you did about it. Just provide a link for reference if you want. This is based on the fact that no one is really having long term success with these corals at this time, so any advice given here is going to sidetrack us from looking at the data for what it is. No one is going to solve the mystery overnight. When we have enough data, we can start to analyze it. I will hopefully have all my info up by the end of the weekend.


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Old 11/20/2010, 09:42 AM   #14
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My input. Will update periodically on their progress.

1) Tank Information

Age of system
6 months

Water Volume
Est 150g including sump

Dimensions of tank
3ft x 3ft x 2ft

Biological filtration
Nil (I think)

Mechanical filtration
Skimz Dual Needlewheel Skimmer and 100 micron filter sock

Chemical filtration
Carbon and UV

Brand of salt(s) used
BrightWell NeoMarine salt and DD H20 salt

Amount and frequency of water changes
10% or 15g weekly

Feeding regime
Manual dosing - Diluted Nannochloropsis(2.5 ml) and Cyclopeeze(Random amount)
Auto Dosing Unit – ¼ teaspoon of Ultra Seafan and Ultra Min F (Morning and Evening)

Fish species kept
Flasher Wrasses
Fairy Wrasses
Dwarf Angels
Clownfishs

Type of food fed to fishes and how often
2 Cubes and 1/2 teaspoon of NLS Pellet in the Morning and 2 Cubes and 1/2 teaspoon of NLS Pellet in the Evening

Circulation pumps and total gph
Reeflo Dart and Rio HF 20
Total GPH is 4900 GPH (Not calculating headloss)

Type of flow
Laminar Alternating Flow (SWCD)

Lighting
LumenAqua Ultrabrite
LumenAqua Nano 300

Lighting period
LumenAqua Ultrabrite – 7am – 11pm
LumenAqua Nano 300 – 11am – 7pm

Other corals kept
Euphyllia
Gorgonian
Cespitularia
Cladiella
Litophyton
Lobophytum
Sarcophyton
Scleronephthya
Sarcothelia
Sinularia
Zoanthids
Anthelia
Stichodactyla tapetum
Tubastrea

Yellow Dendronephthya (17/11/10 – Present)


Purple with White Polyps Dendronephthya (17/11/10 – Present)


FTS


2)Problems
No Problem for Yellow Dendronephthya, it seems healthy and opened whole day and even opening even bigger after lights off.
Purple with White Polyps Dendronephthya came with coral chip rumble as base and it detached from it, attached it to a small liverock and now appeared limpy and very stressed but still expanding after lights off.

3) Additional information
Both Dendronephthya is with me for less than a week.


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Old 11/20/2010, 12:08 PM   #15
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Great job, thanks for getting this started!


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Old 11/21/2010, 12:19 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uhuru View Post
Great job, thanks for getting this started!
Sure, no problem...


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Old 11/21/2010, 02:02 PM   #17
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I think this link will add to this thread:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-02/feature/index.php

It's been awhile since I've read this article, and now that I have read it again I see some details in a new light. Some of the details that stand out to me:
-The nitrate and phosphate levels were quite high.
-Chuck dosed a lot of iodine
-Heavy vodka dosing
-Modest water changes

Despite the high nitrate and phosphate levels, his Dendronephthya's thrived for over a year. Somehow he did not have algae or severe bacteria biofilm/cyano problems with all of the vodka and metabolites in the water. Unfortunately, his tank died from a prolonged power outage. The only lesson there is that these corals are fragile.

I attempted reproducing his method (minus the iodine dosing) on a smaller system around the time the article was published. I had a red variety that lasted about a month in a system that was about 70 gallons (Oceanic Tech Tank). The dendro, as I remember it, stayed open most of the time. I dosed somewhere around 30mL of Shellfish Diet a day and 10mL of Rotifeast a day. Unfortunately, the dendro died when I moved to a new apartment. The rest of the tank went with it when I fell ill and was in a hospital for a month.




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Old 11/22/2010, 01:28 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uhuru View Post
- Age of system
3 Dendronephthyas bought at the end of 2009, were in a system of 15 years of age, at present they are in one new system, of 1 year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by uhuru View Post
- Net water volume including sump, fuge, etc
240 gal. including sump
Quote:
Originally Posted by uhuru View Post
- Dimensions of tank(s) with Dendronephthya
175 x 65 x 65 cms
Quote:
Originally Posted by uhuru View Post
- Biological filtration (biopellets, fuge, etc)
the biological filtration is across products probioticos (biodigest & bioptim) and fuge
also I usually use the product microbacter7 of birghtwell aquatics
Quote:
Originally Posted by uhuru View Post
- Mechanical filtration (skimmer, filter sock, etc)
Skimmer octopus OCTX 350 and occasionally I use the filter of sock
Quote:
Originally Posted by uhuru View Post
- Chemical filtration (carbon, GFO, ozone, etc)
I use 4 reactors (phosband); three of them in line that contain (2) activated coal and (1) rowaphos, whereas the fourth reactor, I use it for the chloride of lantano to avoid the flóculos.
Quote:
Originally Posted by uhuru View Post
- Brand of salt(s) used
TropicMarin bioactif
Quote:
Originally Posted by uhuru View Post
- Amount and frequency of water changes
partial changes weekly up to 20 % of the whole of the volume
Quote:
Originally Posted by uhuru View Post
- Feeding regimen (what you feed, how much of each type and how often)
the food consists of a combination of several products:
PhytoGreen-M, Zooplanktos-S, lugol, Koralle-VM, AminOmega of Brightwell Aquatics
Reefbooster of Prodibio
Rotiferos, Coral Food, Cyclop Eeze of H2O Life
Pro-Coral Phyton & Pro-Coral Zooton of Tropic Marin
Coral Frenzy
Phytomax & Zoomax of Kent Marine

but also the alternate thing with the following products:

Oyster feast, Phyto feast and Roti feast

adito 10 ml of the combination of the products two times per day for dripping, but also that contains vitamin Cn adito 10 ml of aloe edge that contains vitamin C and carbohydrates.
Quote:
Originally Posted by uhuru View Post
- Fish species kept
20 Thalassoma lucasanum
3 zebrasoma Flavencens
1 Holacanthus passer
1 Amblycirrhitus pinos (Red Spotted Hawkfish)
3 Thalassoma bifasciatum (bluehead) & 2 greenhead
1 Paracanthurus hepatus
1 Acanthurus leucosternon
1 Acanthurus japonicus


Quote:
Originally Posted by uhuru View Post
- Type of food fed to fishes and how often
3 cubes of mysis or artemia frozen or eggs of flying fish (masgo) or cyploezze, seaweed nori and also spectum pellests
Quote:
Originally Posted by uhuru View Post
- Circulation pumps and total gph
2 wave maker of Hydor with 8 Koralias 12V and RK2 with 4 koralias evolution 1400
Quote:
Originally Posted by uhuru View Post
- Type of flow (laminar, alternating, random, any combination of these)
combined flow (laminar and alternating)

Quote:
Originally Posted by uhuru View Post
- Lighting
8 T5HO and moonlight (2)
Quote:
Originally Posted by uhuru View Post
- Lighting period
08:00 on 22:00 off
22:00- 07:00 moonlight
Quote:
Originally Posted by uhuru View Post
- Other corals kept
Anthelia
Cladiella
Clavularia
Caulastrea
Dendrophyllia
Echinopora
Epizoanthids
Favia
Gorgonian’s
Montastrea
Montipora C.
Nephthygorgia
Oculina
Pachyclavularia
Porites
Scleronephthya
Sinularia
Sponge’s
Stylaster
Tubastrea
Xenias
Zoanthids
Quote:
Originally Posted by uhuru View Post
- pics of the dendronephthya
11/18/2010




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Old 11/26/2010, 10:08 AM   #19
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I will call this dd1 (Don's Dendron #1)

- Age of system
5 years

- Net water volume including sump, fuge, etc
400 gallons
- Dimensions of tank(s) with Dendronephthya
48L x 32H x 30W
- Biological filtration (biopellets, fuge, etc)
Sumps with macro mix, new Bio Pellets
- Mechanical filtration (skimmer, filter sock, etc)
3 skimmers....2 Oct 200 and and old Theil Aquatech
- Chemical filtration (carbon, GFO, ozone, etc)
Carbon always. GFO always but discontinued use with Bio pellets also add microbacter7
- Brand of salt(s) used
Reef Crystals
- Amount and frequency of water changes
Weekly 30 gallons
- Feeding regimen (what you feed, how much of each type and how often)
A mixture of:
Reef nutrition:
Oyster Feast
Phyto feast
Shell fish Diet
Fauna Marin
Clam Food
Sea Fan Food
Ultra Min S
Ultra Min F
Tropic Marin
Pro-Coral Zooton
Immuvit
New Life Spectrum
Reef Micro-feeder
Coral Frenzy
I mix this all up and dose from a fridge every hour. About 4 tablespoons per hour. In addition the tank is fed twice a day a mixture of flake and pellets and nightly Cyclops or Rods Food.

- Fish species kept
Kole Tang
Powdered Blue Tang
5 Bartletts
Flame hawk
Algae Blenny
Pistol Shrimp
2 Yellow Head Jaw Fish
Green Coris Wrasse
Meleagris Wrasse

- Type of food fed to fishes and how often
A mixture of various Pellets and flake food fed twice a day

- Circulation pumps and total gph
Tunze Wavebox, Tunze 6205, Koralia 3, Blueline 70 return pump
- Type of flow (laminar, alternating, random, any combination of these)
Combination. Dendrons are in laminar flow both down ward and across.
- Lighting
2 400 watt MH 20k and 6 LED spotlights all blue
- Lighting period
2 spotlights on at 7:00am until 11 pm
4 Led spotlights on at 10 am until 10 pm
2 MH on at 2:30pm to 8:30pm
- Other corals kept
SPS, LPS too many to name

- pics of the dendronephthya

Picked it up 10/5/10


As of 11/25/10:


This one looks to have grown. It stayed tightly balled up for weeks and recently has been opening up to what the current pic shows. It is open most of the time now.

DD#2

Added 11/5/10



It looks pretty much the same. It has expanded more. Came with two Dendronephthya Crabs on it. I can no longer find them. I believe they are on the back side of the coral or removed by my wrasses. Not sure.



Last edited by slapshot; 11/26/2010 at 10:30 AM.
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Old 11/26/2010, 09:35 PM   #20
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Great info guys!


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Old 12/04/2010, 12:40 PM   #21
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Update on my Dendros.

Both Dendros are doing very well and reacting to feeding time...



The Yellow Dendro is inflating more and opening much better...


The Purple Dendro is attaching well to the new rock and inflated, looks quite healthy to me...



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Old 12/04/2010, 12:52 PM   #22
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thanks for updating! Sorry for lagging on adding my own log, I will definitely do it next week.


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Old 12/04/2010, 12:58 PM   #23
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I hope you don't mind I am adding a pic of the root like processes of your dendro which likely grew because it is trying to stabilize itself more:



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Old 12/04/2010, 11:43 PM   #24
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No problem... I was thinking whether to put that photo up...

Thanks...


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Old 12/13/2010, 09:46 PM   #25
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Ok sorry it took me so long but here are my dendros...


- Age of system
Started 5/2009, upgraded 7/2010
- Net water volume including sump, fuge, etc
~100 gallons after subtracting rocks, sand, etc.
- Dimensions of tank(s) with Dendronephthya
48" x 18" x 18"
- Biological filtration (biopellets, fuge, etc)
40g fuge with deep mud sand bed, caulerpa, seagrass
- Mechanical filtration (skimmer, filter sock, etc)
ATB cone skimmer rated for up to 480g
- Chemical filtration (carbon, GFO, ozone, etc)
Ozone (50mg/hr), carbon
- Brand of salt(s) used
Instant Ocean
- Amount and frequency of water changes
4 gallons/day "continuously" with litermeter 3
- Feeding regimen (what you feed, how much of each type and how often)

Left flask:
1.5" cube frozen Cyclop-eeze
1.5" cube frozen rotifers
1" cube frozen Nutramar Ova
2 prepackaged cubes frozen baby brine shrimp
10-15 drops FM Ultra Min D
1.5 tsp of dry food mix consisting of:
2 parts NLS Reef Micro Feeder
2 parts FM Ultra Clam
1 part FM Ultra Seafan
1 part FM Ultra Min F
1 part FM Ultra Zoa
1/2 part FM Ultra Life
1/2 part FM Ultra Pac
RO/DI water added to make 1200mL of mixture
100mL dosed every hour for 12 hours/day
Right Flask:
H2O Life Nanno9 Live Phytoplankton
Currently dosing 50mL/hour for 18 hours/day
Bottle on the right:
Reef Nutrition Oyster Feast, dosed 5mL every 12 hours
Target Feeding:
Rods Food, Roggers Food, NLS small fish pellets or FM Ultra LPS 2x/day to LPS corals and fishes

- Fish species kept
In tank with dendros:
3 x Apogon leptacanthus
1 x Ctenochaetus strigosus
1 x Genicanthus bellus
2 x Serranocirrhitus latus
In fuge:
2 x Apogon parvulus
1 x Oxymonacanthus longirostris
1 x Ecsenius stigmatura

- Type of food fed to fishes and how often
Same as for corals
- Circulation pumps and total gph
Main pump - ATB flowstar 1500 gph
Circulation - 3 x Vortech mp10w ES at ~1400gph each

- Type of flow (laminar, alternating, random, any combination of these)
Alternating laminar
- Lighting
Overdriven 36" T5HO with high quality reflectors and Icecap 660 ballast
1 x ATI Blue Plus
2 x Giesemann Pure Actinic
1 x KZ Fiji Purple

- Lighting period
4pm - 10pm
- Other corals kept
Dendrophyllia spp.
Tubastrea spp.
Scleronephthya spp.
Various non-photosynthetic gorgonians
Cirrhipathes spiralis
Chironephthya spp.
Paraminabea spp.
Alcyonium spp. (chili coral)
Various unidentified non-photosynthetic soft corals and anemones
Palythoa spp. (photosynthetic)

- pics of the dendronephthya

D1 (9/2010 - present), purchased from Blue Zoo
This one has lost about 25% of its size. It was covered in 10+ brittle stars and stopped expanding all together for 2 weeks. After physically removing the brittle stars it has started expanding again. It is placed in a cave like area and has been stretching out towards the stronger direct current.


D2 (9/2010 - present), purchased from DD
No problems with this one so far. It took about 2 weeks to start expanding fully and has changed its shape a little probably to adapt to the flow. It appears to have grown but I haven't taken the time to count the polyps.


D3 (10/2010 - present), purchased from DD
This one has definitely changed its shape. It has become longer and skinnier. A portion of it comes into contact with a gorgonian when it bends with the current, and this seems to cause some irritation but the polyps still open. It doesn't seem to have grown and may have gotten a little smaller in the area that is in the most direct flow. This may be causing some irritation as well.


D4 (11/2010 - present), purchased from DD
This one took a couple of weeks to fully expand. It kept expanding a little more every night. It would purposely stretch itself in the direction of the nearest coral and make contact with that coral. I verified this by moving it around the tank.

Here is a burned off branch that was the result of it stretching out to touch a dendrophyllia. There are new polyps growing from the burnt tip. Other than that I haven't noticed any growth, but like the others it seems to change its shape to adapt to the flow.


D5 (12/2010 - 12/2010), purchased from DD
This one arrived practically DOA. I just want to show what an almost dead dendronephthya looks like. Stretched out but flaccid and unable to lift itself no matter how I position it. I've had it for a week and it looks better than before but still very weak. I'm waiting to see if a miracle happens, but experience tells me this one is on the way out.




Last edited by uhuru; 12/13/2010 at 09:52 PM.
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Will groups of 2-3 sexy shrimp and a peppermint shrimp get along? dynaschm0e Other Invertebrates 10 11/26/2007 12:03 PM
The Dendronephthya Study Group is here coralite Advanced Topics 5 04/23/2007 10:58 PM


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