The Frogfish Files

[gregt]

This thread was automatically split due to performance issues. You can find the rest of the thread here: http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...09#post5141109

[Drewcipher]

Originally posted by Reefcherie
Someone else speak up if you have any ideas, but I doubt air was the issue in your case. From what I've heard, if they ingest air and can't expell it, you'd see evidence that there was a problem - funny swimming or something like that.

I had the same thing happen to me and was positive it was nothing I did. Others have experienced the same heartache. Without an autopsy by a fish expert, you wouldn't know that there was an enlarge liver or other issues not evident on the outside.

Cheri

I am not sure about seeing any signs, but "swimming funny?" Isn't that a given with these fish. Plus, as I understand it, it depends on the species. I read, for example, that histrio histrio will cling to sargussum weed and when a predator comes by, will jump up on top and out of the water for a moment to escape.

[Reefcherie]

Originally posted by Drewcipher
I am not sure about seeing any signs, but "swimming funny?" Isn't that a given with these fish. Plus, as I understand it, it depends on the species. I read, for example, that histrio histrio will cling to sargussum weed and when a predator comes by, will jump up on top and out of the water for a moment to escape.

Yes, they do swim "funny" on a good day! I guess I should have said "funnier than normal for a frogfish" such as difficulty swimming upright, difficulty walking along the bottom, hanging out at the surface....something like that.

Scott Michael does report that Histrio histrio can jump (and apparently has no issues with ingesting air). I had an Antennarius hispidus that climbed out of one side of a divided tank (using some macro as a stepping stone) and into the other side - clearly had to be out of the water for a brief period of time - with no ill effects. So not all air exposure to all species is potentially fatal. There certainly have been reported deaths stemming from netting and air transfer though.

[Mr. Ugly]

Originally posted by Reefcherie
Someone else speak up if you have any ideas[...]

Uberfugu said that he finds his frogfish sensitive to nitrates and high temperatures. That could explain why my pictus died a few days after I did some tankscaping. Maybe delayed reaction to a nitrate spike.

[Mr. Ugly]

Originally posted by Reefcherie
Yes, they do swim "funny" on a good day! I guess I should have said "funnier than normal for a frogfish" such as difficulty swimming upright, difficulty walking along the bottom, hanging out at the surface....something like that.

Not a good sign if frogfish dash around quickly shooting up to the top of the tank. Uberfugu has seen sick frogfish do somersaults in mid tank too.

[uberfugu]

I suspect that transit stress is a major factor in the demise of frogfish. Lefty, I agree with Cherie that these guys are so easy to catch; cyanide isn't needed. They certainly show symptoms though, delayed death, respiratory issues, sudden death.

On another forum site, there have been a lot of discussions about this problem in frogfishes. They seem to follow two patterns, death within two weeks from acquisition and a mid-term captivity death from say 6 months to a year. This excludes death from accidents, gross husbandry issues, or tankmate issues.

In the case of early deaths there seem to be two patterns, massive bacterial/parasitic infections and unexplained, 'overnight' deaths. While the former could be from our new frogfish not having natural antibodies or resistance to pathogens in their new system (per LisaD, this has been found in seahorse populations), I think it would be more logical to assume that transit stress (high ammonia levels, temp fluctuations, varying water parameters, and physical abuse including air embolis) would weaken the fish to the point that it would be susceptable to disease. The later deaths would seem to be gill burn from metabolite excesses in transit. These symptoms are similar to cyanide poisoning.

As to frogfish deaths in cases of an established fish in a mature system, there was an account by Dr Bruce Carlson when he was at the Waikiki Aquarium of established, long-term commerson anglers succumbing to either a bacterial or fungal disease. I believe the aquarium used a flow-though system of fresh ocean water and the commersons is endemic to Hawaii so it would seem that water quality is not the issue. Most likely the problem is dietary in nature. Several years ago, I spoke with Dr. McCosker at the california Academy of Science and he felt that dietary problems were the probable cause of early frogfish deaths in captivity. I haven't cut open any deceased frogfish, wouldn't know the difference between a sick one and a healthy one but I have been trying to avoid the one-food syndrome (a diet too high in Doritos is not good)

Sorry for being wordy

[blackwagon]

My mom said she saw it swimming around the tank this morning before she went to work. She said it looked like it was yawning.

[Thales]

Originally posted by uberfugu
I suspect that transit stress is a major factor in the demise of frogfish. Lefty, I agree with Cherie that these guys are so easy to catch; cyanide isn't needed. They certainly show symptoms though, delayed death, respiratory issues, sudden death.

I agree. However just because cyanide isn't needed doesn't mean it isn't used (we could easily make the argument that no cyanide is needed).
It could also be that they are being collected without cyanide, but other fish being collected at the same time are - they may be exposed to the juice in holding tanks on the boat or at the station.

I don't know if I believe any of that, but it did occur to me!

In the case of early deaths there seem to be two patterns, massive bacterial/parasitic infections and unexplained, 'overnight' deaths. While the former could be from our new frogfish not having natural antibodies or resistance to pathogens in their new system (per LisaD, this has been found in seahorse populations), I think it would be more logical to assume that transit stress (high ammonia levels, temp fluctuations, varying water parameters, and physical abuse including air embolis) would weaken the fish to the point that it would be susceptable to disease. The later deaths would seem to be gill burn from metabolite excesses in transit. These symptoms are similar to cyanide poisoning.

Good stuff!

As to frogfish deaths in cases of an established fish in a mature system, there was an account by Dr Bruce Carlson when he was at the Waikiki Aquarium of established, long-term commerson anglers succumbing to either a bacterial or fungal disease. I believe the aquarium used a flow-though system of fresh ocean water and the commersons is endemic to Hawaii so it would seem that water quality is not the issue. Most likely the problem is dietary in nature. Several years ago, I spoke with Dr. McCosker at the california Academy of Science and he felt that dietary problems were the probable cause of early frogfish deaths in captivity. I haven't cut open any deceased frogfish, wouldn't know the difference between a sick one and a healthy one but I have been trying to avoid the one-food syndrome (a diet too high in Doritos is not good)

Sorry for being wordy

Wordy is good!
In this video, http://www.divefilm.com/dive_films/indexJ.html , you will see a froggy eating very small stuff (and if you go to the film index you will see one of my films! ), which makes me think food size may be an issue.

Interesting stuff, all of it. I want to get another frogfish, but I am a little worried.

[Reefcherie]

Originally posted by uberfugu
I spoke with Dr. McCosker at the california Academy of Science and he felt that dietary problems were the probable cause of early frogfish deaths in captivity.

I wonder what "early" really means. Out of curiosity, did he mention any data on longevity of wild frogfish? I haven't found a source of that information.

Thank you for a very thorough and well-worded response. Your wonderful experience and insight is always so valuable here!

[ReefGeekster]

Can frogfish tolerate Copper? I have a QT tank I'm running CopperSafe in aka Cooper Power, Copper Sulfate. This tank is a established copper QT tank. The frog fish is showing signs of ick and since this QT tank is up and running and cycled I'd like to use it.

[Mr. Ugly]

I've read that frogfish are sensitive to copper, and that you shouldn't use it. Though I think one person on Grim Reefers did ok with copper. Hyposalinity works fine for frogfish with ich.

[29GallonReefer]

sorry to hear about the fish dying. Well here's my story on how i am keeping the frogfish because all you hear is the death rates of these guys in captivity. I have a 20L thats been running for about 4 months with an UNDER GRAVEL FILTRAtion powered by a MJ1200. I introduced my A. Hispidus about a week ago and he has eaten twice now. Many people look down on UGF in marine tanks but i run it in my 29 reef and everything is fine. MY nitrates are not at 0 but i keep them very low dosing with a nitrite/nitrate remover.

I just felt the need to post what my setup is and with any luck i will keep this guy for years. I'll keep everyone upodated on how he does. I've been feeding him grassshrimp because thats really the only thing that is acessible to me now. No one else really sells anything good feeders for marine fish. I'm not so sure i like the idea of feeding damsels, guppies, mollies, etc...

[Reefcherie]

Originally posted by 29GallonReefer
No one else really sells anything good feeders for marine fish. I'm not so sure i like the idea of feeding damsels, guppies, mollies, etc...

I get live marine feeder shrimp from Seawater Express and live marine feeder minnows from Northeast Brineshrimp. I specifically ask for sizes no more than half the length of my angler. I keep a separate tank for the feeder shrimp/fish so that I can gut load them with good quality, varied, marine fish food.

Cheri

[29GallonReefer]

thanks, but i'm trying to stay away from a 3rd tank... haha to keep the feeders in. How large is your feeder tank? And is it benefical in a nutritional way to feed a guppy or damsel once in a while?

[Reefcherie]

Originally posted by 29GallonReefer
thanks, but i'm trying to stay away from a 3rd tank... haha to keep the feeders in. How large is your feeder tank? And is it benefical in a nutritional way to feed a guppy or damsel once in a while?

I'm a huge believer in quarantining fish, so once I decided to get marine feeder minnows, there was no question in my mind about needing a separate tank. I buy in quantity to make the shipping cost pay for itself - either 50 1-2" minnows or 100 2" shrimp at a time. I had a 50-gallon garage tank and now have an ~80 gallon one, picked up for a song, w/ a Fluval canister filter, a powerhead and a cheap shop lite (have some Chaetomorpha growing to take up excess nutrients). It's bare bottom and has a few pieces of live rock and a bunch of pieces of PVC pipe for hiding places. I've never had a problem w/ either the fish or shrimp from the sources I've used, but better safe than sorry.

I believe a guppy has no nutritional value for a frogfish because the composition of freshwater fish and marine fish is quite different. Would one hurt him on a very occasional basis? I doubt it. I've heard that a steady diet of freshwater fish can lead to liver damage in an angler though.

A damsel is a marine fish, so I think that is perfectly fine frogfish food - though as I said - I believe in quarantining fish for several weeks prior to feeding.

[29GallonReefer]

i posted a little earlier about a "fungus" growing under his bottom lip that is white in color. Ive been treating melafix and pimafix and he is starting to look better. But his eyes are glazed over. Ive always wondered what that meant when they were glazed..

[29GallonReefer]

this guys is pretty funny. When i put live food in the tank he barely lures at all, but when im walking in front or on side he lures more at me and the side glass then when there is food in the tank! I hope my UGF proves success as it has in the past for me!

[29GallonReefer]

im bored so i thought id post something interesting for the beginners like me. I love the gill opening on their legs

[29GallonReefer]

I tried feeding my frogfish a peice of krill today from the feeding stick and he actually ate it! Only took about a minute of jiggling it around. But when he went to bite the krill he got ahold of the stick and continued to swallow it and would not let go. The stick actaully went to the bottom of his gut because i could see the end pertrude through his belly. I had to lift him up for him to let go. So i will not be feedign from the stick again.

[uberfugu]

Don't give up on the stick. You just have to learn how far your frog can reach and hold the stick just a bit further. Your angler will get just the food item. Occasionally, mine still inhales the stick or net or whatever is close. I just shake it gently in the water and they'll let go...eventually.

Once your frogfish start associating the stick with feeding, you can start feeding strips of fish, defrosted silversides, shell-on shrimp (I stuff them with a chunk of formula one) and other types of food.

Some of my big guys will eat a silverside if I just drop it into the tank.

[29GallonReefer]

i guess because it was the first time it got me worried, i could feel him swallowing more and more of the stick.

[uberfugu]

It is a little unnerving. As they get used to stick feeding, they seem to understand and will actually come to you when you approach the tank.

Also, beware, when cleaning the inside of your tanks with hands, keep an eye on your anglers. Your finger resembles the feeding stick and frogfish have many small teeth that are angled towards it's stomach. When they clamp down, it is really difficult to get your finger (or whatever) out without hurting yourself or the frogfish

[Reefcherie]

Originally posted by uberfugu
When they clamp down, it is really difficult to get your finger (or whatever) out without hurting yourself or the frogfish

Uh oh! That sounds like the voice of experience!

[uberfugu]

affirmative

Despite the fact that I have a set of gloves, I continue to get bristled by worms and bit or stung by others. As my father likes to say, "Do as I say, not as I do"

[Mr. Ugly]

Originally posted by 29GallonReefer
But when he went to bite the krill he got ahold of the stick and continued to swallow it and would not let go.

I use a length of rigid airline tubing for a feeding stick. On the end, I attached a short piece of fishing line with a scrap of flexible air hose.

I poke the fishing line through the food, and when he gulps the food, the fishing line comes back out of his mouth with a slight tug.

You can gauge your fish's strike distance by his lure. Mine will go for the food when I put it one lure length away from his mouth.