Want to dose Kalk for PH but need help calculating impact on 2 part dosing

Adamc1303 · 01/04/2017, 09:34 PM

I would like to dose Kalk via a doser so I know exactly how much I would be adding. I have a Deltec Kalk stirrer so I would just use that to mix it and have the doser take the kalkwasser from there. My issue is that I don't know which formula to use to figure out how much less 2 part to now dose. I don't want an ALK spike. I am are there are some calculators or a formula online. I just can't seem to find it. Any help will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Adam

raythepilot · 01/04/2017, 10:07 PM

Well this may sound stupid by why don't you just take a sample of your tank water and see how much Kalk you need to get to the right pH. Then adjust to the right pH. Let your tank go for a day or so and do the same thing. Repeat a couple of times keeping track of the amount of Kalk you have to add and average. You have the correct amount calibrated to your tank.
Even more stupid. why don't you get a pH controller.

Adamc1303 · 01/04/2017, 10:32 PM

I am not worried about raising the PH to high I can monitor that via a PH probe. I am worried about the alkalinity spiking because of the addition of the kalk.

bertoni · 01/04/2017, 10:34 PM

You can get an estimate if you know the saturation of the Kalkwasser, but you'll need to measure that. Saturated Kalk is about 1/45 as concentrated as two-part, as a guideline. Kalk also affects the pH more than 2-part, which can lead to an increase in consumption, so you'll need to see exactly how your tank responds, though.

Adamc1303 · 01/04/2017, 11:31 PM

Thanks Jonathan! I need that increase in PH to lead to an increase in consumption. As long as my ALK doesn't spike once I get my PH stable I will compensate with 2 part to meet the increased consumption. How do I know how saturated the Kalk is? I am not worried about the saturation changing as the kalkwasser gets used up because I won't be topping it off with fresh water just waiting for the container empty out and then replenish both the powder and water at once.

Adamc1303 · 01/04/2017, 11:43 PM

I am currently dosing 75 ML of ESV 2 part. If Saturated Kalk is about 1/45 as concentrated as two-part then I would decrease my 2 part dosage to 70 ML a day and dose 225 ML of kalk to compensate. How do I know the affect 225 ML of Kalk will have on the PH though? I will dose it over 24 hours to minimize a PH spike, Although I am not sure I will have one because people dose Kalk via top off which is way more then 225 ML a day and they don't spike PH which has me thinking if the kalk will help at all with my PH issue.

Ron Reefman · 01/05/2017, 07:05 AM

What is the 'normal' pH and what do you want to raise it to?

Adamc1303 · 01/05/2017, 07:37 AM

Low of 7.77 and a high of 7.93 max.

Adamc1303 · 01/05/2017, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bertoni

You can get an estimate if you know the saturation of the Kalkwasser, but you'll need to measure that. Saturated Kalk is about 1/45 as concentrated as two-part, as a guideline. Kalk also affects the pH more than 2-part, which can lead to an increase in consumption, so you'll need to see exactly how your tank responds, though.

What's the ratio for Kalk vs the Calcium part of 2 part? I use ESV.

Thanks,

Adam

bertoni · 01/05/2017, 06:20 PM

The ratio is about 45:1 for the calcium and alkalinity parts compared to saturated Kalk. One problem is that Kalk stirrers often produce Kalk that is significantly less than full strength. You could try measuring the strength of the Kalk, or just use the full-strength numbers as an approximation. I'd watch the levels daily for a while.

Adding 225 ml of saturated Kalk is equivalent to adding about 5ml of the calcium and 5 ml of the alkalinity supplements for the recipe 1 2-part. The tank might start consuming more calcium and alkalinity if there's a pH increase, though.

raythepilot · 01/05/2017, 10:35 PM

Again let me suggest that you try it out using a sample of your tank water. You can play around all you want until you find the right answer without killing anything.
Believe me, trying to calculate the right answer will not be as good as trying it out.

Adamc1303 · 01/05/2017, 10:38 PM

Is it common to experience low PH while carbon dosing?

bertoni · 01/05/2017, 10:48 PM

Some people report a drop in pH with carbon dosing. The issue might be carbon dioxide production by the bacteria consuming the organic carbon.

Adamc1303 · 01/06/2017, 12:26 AM

I have dosed about 500 ML of Kalk in the last 6 hours. My PH has continued to decrease. I am down to 7.67 but I don't see anything negative happening in the tank. I just ran my skimmer air intake line directly to outside my house. I hope it helps for now. I am also hoping that the PH begins to increase and stay on the higher side as the tank gets used to the carbon dosing. I was using Aquaforest products for the last month; a bacteria strain with a carbon source. It really hasn't done anything in a month so I switched to Vinegar 2 days ago. The PH was low since I started a carbon dosing a month ago so I opened the window in the filter room which kept it at 7.75 on the low to 7.95 on the high. While I am not pleased with those numbers they aren't in the danger zone. Anyway, it got very cold and I had to close the window. It's open again now and we're in the middle of a blizzard!

Adamc1303 · 01/08/2017, 01:31 PM

Iv'e gotten an increase in the PH to semi acceptable levels at 7.86 during the Talk dosing hours at night. My skimmer is drawing air form the outdoors so this isn't an issue with a low oxygen level in my house. My question is; does this sort of get better with time? Does the high Carbon Dioxide level indicate too much bacteria in my tank or just too much of a carbon source in the tank with a need for more bacteria or none of the above? I am trying to figure out if the talk dosing will be long term or not. I ask because I am dosing 2,000 ml from the hours of 6pm to 12 AM when my MH turn off. In order to continue keeping the PH up I will need to dose an additional 3,000 ML from 12 am to 8 am. At that point I will be dosing over a gallon per day and refilling the reactor every other day will be tedious.

Thanks,

Adam

bertoni · 01/08/2017, 03:31 PM

It's probably a matter of too much carbon dioxide in the house. The tank gets a lot of air via the water surface, so it's very common for skimmers not to raise the pH, even with the input air coming from outside.

Adamc1303 · 01/08/2017, 04:12 PM

But it only started when I began carbon dosing

bertoni · 01/08/2017, 04:33 PM

Well, carbon dosing might lower the pH a bit, but the timing might also coincide with the windows being shut more. If carbon dosing lowered the pH, maybe the skimmer is undersized for the tank or needs cleaning or tuning.

raythepilot · 01/08/2017, 06:01 PM

1. check your pH meter
2. Stop carbon dosing.
3. Look for something dead in your tank.
4. Do a 50% water change.

Adamc1303 · 01/08/2017, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bertoni

Well, carbon dosing might lower the pH a bit, but the timing might also coincide with the windows being shut more. If carbon dosing lowered the pH, maybe the skimmer is undersized for the tank or needs cleaning or tuning.

Skimmer isn't undersized at all. It's a bubble kind Super marin 300 on a 250 gallon total water system maybe a tad more. I happened to have cleaned it last week not related to this issue. Just thought it needed a good cleaning so I disassembled it and had it in vinegar for 24 hours. It's the carbon dosing. I am just wondering if the carbon vs bacteria ratio may have something to do with it.

Adamc1303 · 01/08/2017, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raythepilot

1. check your pH meter
2. Stop carbon dosing.
3. Look for something dead in your tank.
4. Do a 50% water change.

New PH probe, got it 2 weeks ago. I re-calibrated it a week ago when I started seeing the low results. I also took it out of the sump and put it in my overflow box so I can see actual PH from tank water not sump water in my basement. I have been very aggressive with WC just to get NO3 down. As far as carbon dosing I don't want to stop. I am hoping it will yield great results within time. I don't think there is anything dead in my tank.

raythepilot · 01/08/2017, 06:24 PM

Cut your carbon dose in half. And get your NO3- down.

raythepilot · 01/08/2017, 06:32 PM

What about CO2 absorbers. Do you have any macro algae growing in your system?

raythepilot · 01/08/2017, 06:38 PM

CO2 is adsorbed by photosynthetic algae. (Including the algae in corals) If you don't have enough algae/coral the pH will go down.

Also all your organic C --> CO2 and water without photosynthesis.

Adamc1303 · 01/08/2017, 06:57 PM

I have a large fuge with Chaeto that I may have top has out if the carbon dosing starves the chaetomorphia.

01/04/2017, 09:34 PM	#1
Adamc1303 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 964	Want to dose Kalk for PH but need help calculating impact on 2 part dosing I would like to dose Kalk via a doser so I know exactly how much I would be adding. I have a Deltec Kalk stirrer so I would just use that to mix it and have the doser take the kalkwasser from there. My issue is that I don't know which formula to use to figure out how much less 2 part to now dose. I don't want an ALK spike. I am are there are some calculators or a formula online. I just can't seem to find it. Any help will be greatly appreciated! Thanks, Adam __________________ Metal Halide Connoisseur!

01/04/2017, 10:32 PM	#3
Adamc1303 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 964	I am not worried about raising the PH to high I can monitor that via a PH probe. I am worried about the alkalinity spiking because of the addition of the kalk. __________________ Metal Halide Connoisseur!

01/04/2017, 10:34 PM	#4
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	You can get an estimate if you know the saturation of the Kalkwasser, but you'll need to measure that. Saturated Kalk is about 1/45 as concentrated as two-part, as a guideline. Kalk also affects the pH more than 2-part, which can lead to an increase in consumption, so you'll need to see exactly how your tank responds, though. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

01/04/2017, 11:31 PM	#5
Adamc1303 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 964	Thanks Jonathan! I need that increase in PH to lead to an increase in consumption. As long as my ALK doesn't spike once I get my PH stable I will compensate with 2 part to meet the increased consumption. How do I know how saturated the Kalk is? I am not worried about the saturation changing as the kalkwasser gets used up because I won't be topping it off with fresh water just waiting for the container empty out and then replenish both the powder and water at once. __________________ Metal Halide Connoisseur!

01/04/2017, 11:43 PM	#6
Adamc1303 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 964	I am currently dosing 75 ML of ESV 2 part. If Saturated Kalk is about 1/45 as concentrated as two-part then I would decrease my 2 part dosage to 70 ML a day and dose 225 ML of kalk to compensate. How do I know the affect 225 ML of Kalk will have on the PH though? I will dose it over 24 hours to minimize a PH spike, Although I am not sure I will have one because people dose Kalk via top off which is way more then 225 ML a day and they don't spike PH which has me thinking if the kalk will help at all with my PH issue. __________________ Metal Halide Connoisseur!

01/04/2017, 10:07 PM	#2
raythepilot Registered Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: North East USA Posts: 195	Well this may sound stupid by why don't you just take a sample of your tank water and see how much Kalk you need to get to the right pH. Then adjust to the right pH. Let your tank go for a day or so and do the same thing. Repeat a couple of times keeping track of the amount of Kalk you have to add and average. You have the correct amount calibrated to your tank. Even more stupid. why don't you get a pH controller.

01/05/2017, 07:05 AM	#7
Ron Reefman Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Cape Coral, FL Posts: 10,431	What is the 'normal' pH and what do you want to raise it to? __________________ The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it. (Neil deGrasse Tyson) Visit my build thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2593017

01/05/2017, 07:37 AM	#8
Adamc1303 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 964	Low of 7.77 and a high of 7.93 max. __________________ Metal Halide Connoisseur!

01/05/2017, 06:20 PM	#10
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	The ratio is about 45:1 for the calcium and alkalinity parts compared to saturated Kalk. One problem is that Kalk stirrers often produce Kalk that is significantly less than full strength. You could try measuring the strength of the Kalk, or just use the full-strength numbers as an approximation. I'd watch the levels daily for a while. Adding 225 ml of saturated Kalk is equivalent to adding about 5ml of the calcium and 5 ml of the alkalinity supplements for the recipe 1 2-part. The tank might start consuming more calcium and alkalinity if there's a pH increase, though. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

01/05/2017, 10:35 PM	#11
raythepilot Registered Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: North East USA Posts: 195	Again let me suggest that you try it out using a sample of your tank water. You can play around all you want until you find the right answer without killing anything. Believe me, trying to calculate the right answer will not be as good as trying it out.

01/05/2017, 10:38 PM	#12
Adamc1303 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 964	Is it common to experience low PH while carbon dosing? __________________ Metal Halide Connoisseur!

01/05/2017, 10:48 PM	#13
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Some people report a drop in pH with carbon dosing. The issue might be carbon dioxide production by the bacteria consuming the organic carbon. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

01/08/2017, 01:31 PM	#15
Adamc1303 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 964	Iv'e gotten an increase in the PH to semi acceptable levels at 7.86 during the Talk dosing hours at night. My skimmer is drawing air form the outdoors so this isn't an issue with a low oxygen level in my house. My question is; does this sort of get better with time? Does the high Carbon Dioxide level indicate too much bacteria in my tank or just too much of a carbon source in the tank with a need for more bacteria or none of the above? I am trying to figure out if the talk dosing will be long term or not. I ask because I am dosing 2,000 ml from the hours of 6pm to 12 AM when my MH turn off. In order to continue keeping the PH up I will need to dose an additional 3,000 ML from 12 am to 8 am. At that point I will be dosing over a gallon per day and refilling the reactor every other day will be tedious. Thanks, Adam __________________ Metal Halide Connoisseur!

01/08/2017, 03:31 PM	#16
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	It's probably a matter of too much carbon dioxide in the house. The tank gets a lot of air via the water surface, so it's very common for skimmers not to raise the pH, even with the input air coming from outside. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

01/08/2017, 04:12 PM	#17
Adamc1303 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 964	But it only started when I began carbon dosing __________________ Metal Halide Connoisseur!

01/08/2017, 04:33 PM	#18
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Well, carbon dosing might lower the pH a bit, but the timing might also coincide with the windows being shut more. If carbon dosing lowered the pH, maybe the skimmer is undersized for the tank or needs cleaning or tuning. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

01/08/2017, 06:01 PM	#19
raythepilot Registered Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: North East USA Posts: 195	1. check your pH meter 2. Stop carbon dosing. 3. Look for something dead in your tank. 4. Do a 50% water change.

01/08/2017, 06:24 PM	#22
raythepilot Registered Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: North East USA Posts: 195	Cut your carbon dose in half. And get your NO3- down.

01/08/2017, 06:32 PM	#23
raythepilot Registered Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: North East USA Posts: 195	What about CO2 absorbers. Do you have any macro algae growing in your system?

01/08/2017, 06:38 PM	#24
raythepilot Registered Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: North East USA Posts: 195	CO2 is adsorbed by photosynthetic algae. (Including the algae in corals) If you don't have enough algae/coral the pH will go down. Also all your organic C --> CO2 and water without photosynthesis. Last edited by raythepilot; 01/08/2017 at 06:44 PM.

01/08/2017, 06:57 PM	#25
Adamc1303 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 964	I have a large fuge with Chaeto that I may have top has out if the carbon dosing starves the chaetomorphia. __________________ Metal Halide Connoisseur!