what is the benefic of balancing the Cal to your KH range?

[sensei]

I recentry was introduced to a reef calulator that gives the figure of the Cal for your range of KH.

http://www.ultimatereef.net/info/cal...alkcalcalc.php

for example for a value of 8dKh alkalinity says you should have 417ppm of Cal

Is it better to balance the Cal to your Alk range?
what is the benefic of balancing the Cal with this calculators?
What are the effects in the chemistry of the water?
less precipitation of cal?
is the concentration of calcium that give this calculator the best for equilibrium state?
having this balance is better for coral?

Thanks a lot for your answer

[mcgyvr]

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...ture/index.php

[sensei]

Thanks mcgyvr,

read the article,
In conclusion it is best to balance Cal and Alk to avoid precipitation problems in reef tank
Thanks a lot

[bdare]

The best thing you can do to prevent precipitation in your tank is maintain your Magnesium.

[Doh]

Originally Posted by sensei

I recentry was introduced to a reef calulator that gives the figure of the Cal for your range of KH.

http://www.ultimatereef.net/info/cal...alkcalcalc.php

for example for a value of 8dKh alkalinity says you should have 417ppm of Cal

Is it better to balance the Cal to your Alk range?
what is the benefic of balancing the Cal with this calculators?
What are the effects in the chemistry of the water?
less precipitation of cal?
is the concentration of calcium that give this calculator the best for equilibrium state?
having this balance is better for coral?

Thanks a lot for your answer

the link doesn't work?

[sensei]

here it is again.

http://www.ultimatereef.net/info/cal...alkcalcalc.php

[sensei]

Originally Posted by bdare

The best thing you can do to prevent precipitation in your tank is maintain your Magnesium.

Yes, but it also makes sense to balance Cal with you alk according to this Calculator
I was aiming at 465 ppm of Cal with a Alk of 8 and according to this calculator I should aim at 417 ppm of Cal with this level of Alk.

if we have more Cal I believe we are promoting more precipitation to occur

[Brieninsac]

I shoot for a dkh of 9 and according to the calculator my ideal calcium should be 424. Does that mean KH and Ca will not decrease as quickly if one is lower than ideal? Or in other words if properly balanced they stay higher longer?

Lately my calcium has been between 340-410 for the last month. My Magnesium has been between 1300-1320 for the last two months yet I feel like I'm always dosing either alkalinity or calcium. I also use kalkwasser.

[bertoni]

Those "balance" numbers are meaningless. They relate back to one person's opinion as to the "perfect" water parameters. As long as the calcium and alkalinity are in the 350-450 ppm and 7-11 dKH ranges, respectively, the tank will be fine.

[Ron Reefman]

Thanks for that post Jonathan!

I wanted so badly to post something like that, but not being a chemist... in fact, not having more than a basic grasp of most chemistry, I was too unsure of my answer and if others had questioned my knowledge, I'd have been in over my head with lead weights tied to my feet.

So I assume from the replies above, the only benefit of this "balance" is less precipitation of Ca? There is no other benefit?

[sensei]

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...ture/index.php

you should read this article.
here are a couple of frases from the article:

"4. Calcium and carbonate (a component of alkalinity) can precipitate from the water column if the product of the concentration of each of them rises too high.


After a balance has been established, the system has reached the exact level of saturation, with the overall number of ions coming off of the surface equaling the number going down onto it. This process is precisely how the solubility limit of any solid is determined. It is a surprise for many aquarists to learn that solubility is dynamic even at saturation, with ions dissolving off of the surface and precipitating onto it very rapidly, although in equal numbers."


I think the benefic results from having more stable Kh parameters with less dosing avoiding more precipitation.

Once my Cal went up to 525 and it was dificult for me to keep my KH stable.
I have never used this calculator, but I try it and see if all this help me me maintain more stable parameters.

[bertoni]

That's not quite accurate. Calcium carbonate generally is supersaturated in our tanks:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-06/rhf/index.php#6

There's very little at equilibrium in our tanks, and calcium and alkalinity levels certainly aren't in tanks that have calcifying organisms or see abiotic precipitation. It's certainly true, as the article you quoted states, that a cup of fresh water will reach an approximate equilibrium. The article then goes on to discuss how much more complicated a reef tank is.

[sensei]

Thanks for the article

Yes I understand it is more complicated in reef aquariums because of other elements interacting and Mag also alters the solubility, but in article you posted says:
"3. The more calcium and carbonate ions that there are in excess of "saturation," the faster the rate of calcium carbonate precipitation"

I am not saying that there will be a problem it you have higher levels of calcium, but to me it makes sense to balance ALk and Cal

Article also states that Normal seawater has calcium = 420 ppm, and to me it makes sense to mimic concentrations of Cal in Natural Sea Water to be as more natural as possible.

Thanks again

[timnem70]

Originally Posted by bdare

The best thing you can do to prevent precipitation in your tank is maintain your Magnesium.

Yep. Get Mag stable. The other chemical processes like the 2 you mentioned along with the pH, will usually stay within range.

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[timnem70]

Or at the least manageable

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[bertoni]

Originally Posted by sensei

Yes I understand it is more complicated in reef aquariums because of other elements interacting and Mag also alters the solubility, but in article you posted says:
"3. The more calcium and carbonate ions that there are in excess of "saturation," the faster the rate of calcium carbonate precipitation"

I agree with the article, but the article doesn't mention any concept of "balance" between the ions, as far as I recall. There is discussion of a "balanced additive" that adds calcium and alkalinity in the ratio in which calcifying organisms consume them.

I am not saying that there will be a problem it you have higher levels of calcium, but to me it makes sense to balance ALk and Cal

I don't know what you mean by "balance" here.

Article also states that Normal seawater has calcium = 420 ppm, and to me it makes sense to mimic concentrations of Cal in Natural Sea Water to be as more natural as possible.

Targeting natural ocean parameters generally makes sense, although we generally target an alkalinity level above ocean levels, to help deal with the higher levels of carbon dioxide in our home, and to give some room for consumption during the day.

[sensei]

I agree, the only parameter a little above Natural Sea Water that I am aiming is KH, but just a little higher. I am aimimg for an ALk of 7.5-8 but I dose daily to avoid levels going down. Regarding Cal and Mag I am aiming for NSW levels, Cal 420 Mag around 1300.

I believe that I have read that NSW parameters like Alk and Cal are near saturation level, if this is the case, there is a balance between different ions and if one pushes one above the limit there will be more precipitation.

Thanks

[bertoni]

Seawater is supersaturated with respect to calcium and alkalinity.

[sensei]

Thanks Jhonathan,

I will try the Cal level recomended by the Calculator for the level of ALk I use and see how it goes.

Thanks again for the comments

[neiltus]

What is the precision of the Ca and Alk test kits? I think Alk is maybe .2 on a good day and Ca maybe 10 or 7ppm?

The way I look at it, trying to nail a pair of numbers is fruitless, because there is still induced error of about 6%+.

Getting ballpark is one thing, but trying to get ultra specific might be more of a headache than it's worth.

[bertoni]

The various kits will have different limits, but the more precise kits probably can hit the accuracy limits you gave, if you're very careful when testing.

[bdare]

Originally Posted by bertoni

That's not quite accurate. Calcium carbonate generally is supersaturated in our tanks:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-06/rhf/index.php#6

There's very little at equilibrium in our tanks, and calcium and alkalinity levels certainly aren't in tanks that have calcifying organisms or see abiotic precipitation. It's certainly true, as the article you quoted states, that a cup of fresh water will reach an approximate equilibrium. The article then goes on to discuss how much more complicated a reef tank is.

THIS


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[bdare]

Originally Posted by bertoni

Seawater is supersaturated with respect to calcium and alkalinity.

This is why I emphasized the importance of Magnesium.


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[Dealseer]

Originally Posted by bdare

THIS


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