Skimmer scammers?

[somebloke]

Skimmers. Why the hell do they cost so much? They're simple devices and should be cheap to manufacture. You'd think they have onboard microcontrollers and perform robotic dances. I'm generally not a price whiner but in the skimmer market something seems "off." Cabal?

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[Jscwerve]

Free market economics. Something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. It's an expensive hobby, therefore the more expensive skimmer is better, right? If enough people buy it, then it becomes artificially worth that amount, no matter how ridiculous.

Just like art.

[mcgyvr]

Yes some are overpriced like an Apple product..
Others are actually very reasonable now IMO..

And many do have onboard microcontrollers now... (DC pump controllers)

[75mixedreef]

There is also the matter of production quantities. They simply to not make and sell enough of them to justify a high efficiency manufacturing process. Those quantities would also drive down the relative overhead costs, making each skimmer cheaper to produce. There is a pretty good margin on these, but I wonder what their profits really look like after you include their fixed costs. It might not be as high as you think, but it could be higher too.

Keep in mind though, that you do not absolutely have to have a skimmer. I don't and in my upgrade I'm using an ATS and a fuge to control the nutrients. For me it is more fun and more efficient since I like running with my water a little dirtier to feed the corals. I just know I need to avoid risks that could add too many nutrients too quickly and nuke the tank if they died, like a sea cucumber or large nems. Staying on top of outbreaks and blooms will be key though, so I will have to be ready to do large water changes.

[ericarenee]

EVERY Product or service is Too much money, Unless its me providing the service or product then its never enough..



Just a example

[Tripod1404]

Most of the skimmers that are expensive are also hand casted and assembled. Not the pump, but the acrylic body. So people who built those have small special casts that they use to produce these bodies (no factory based mass production here, mostly small workshops that can produce 10-20 units a day at max). It is hard to built something curved out of acrylic let alone cylinders,funnels and concave bodies that all modern "expensive" skimmers have.

[jgln]

For me it was just easier to buy one than to try and build one. Between research, time and parts to me it was not really a rip-off. One thing I don't know where you would buy or build is the part that creates the fine bubbles that makes the foam. Not rocket science but I wonder if you can buy that part?

[somebloke]

Originally Posted by jgln

For me it was just easier to buy one than to try and build one. Between research, time and parts to me it was not really a rip-off. One thing I don't know where you would buy or build is the part that creates the fine bubbles that makes the foam. Not rocket science but I wonder if you can buy that part?

I hear you - yeah time is money. It was just a mild rant. I'm probably going to check our local "club" for a used one

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[somebloke]

Originally Posted by ericarenee

EVERY Product or service is Too much money, Unless its me providing the service or product then its never enough..



Just a example

Nah, you have monopolies, cartels, and the irrationality of consumers....the enlightenment ideal of automatic rational progress hasn't borne out in practice

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[somebloke]

Originally Posted by Tripod1404

Most of the skimmers that are expensive are also hand casted and assembled. Not the pump, but the acrylic body. So people who built those have small special casts that they use to produce these bodies (no factory based mass production here, mostly small workshops that can produce 10-20 units a day at max). It is hard to built something curved out of acrylic let alone cylinders,funnels and concave bodies that all modern "expensive" skimmers have.

That's a good point about curved components. I'm sure it all could and would be factory-automated of the demand were high enough....if we can build a microprocessor and land a rover on mars, we can automate the build of a skimmer....but I hear ya.

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[Tripod1404]

Originally Posted by jgln

For me it was just easier to buy one than to try and build one. Between research, time and parts to me it was not really a rip-off. One thing I don't know where you would buy or build is the part that creates the fine bubbles that makes the foam. Not rocket science but I wonder if you can buy that part?

You can make your own skimmer, we used to built our own skimmers before things become accessible to home users. For a very long time only, places like public aquariums had professionally made skimmers.

To create bubbles you will need a pump that sucks in both water and air. Any pump with a strong enough suction would suck in air with water if you connect an air tube to the water intake. This will intrinsically create some bubbles as the air/water mixture pass through the pump propeller. If you want to further reduce the size of the bubbles for better water/air contact, you can add a second separate propeller to the outlet of the pump that rotates at a much faster RPM than the pump's . You might also add some fishing lines between the blades of the propeller so it cuts trough the bubbles and makes them even smaller. Congratulations, you made a very simple venturi skimmer pump! . Final step is to add a bubble plate so the rising bubbles are evenly distributes. Connect this to a long tube with a neck that tank water passes through and a collection cup on top and you will have a skimmer.

[Tripod1404]

Originally Posted by somebloke

That's a good point about curved components. I'm sure it all could and would be factory-automated of the demand were high enough....if we can build a microprocessor and land a rover on mars, we can automate the build of a skimmer....but I hear ya.

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Yeah exactly, the ones that are a bit cheaper are produced in a more "automated" way. The critical issue here is the demand. Would you invest in a factory that costs 5-10 million dollars just to produce something that would have a market demand of couple of thousands of units a year at best? It is just more practical to use workshops and human labor for this.

[Voodoojar]

Not to get specific but a brand new bubble magnus curve 5 is like $110 buck on fishstreet. Thats an awesome skimmer and not expensive.

The entire world functions in the exact same was as the skimmer market I dont know why you're surprised.

[somebloke]

Originally Posted by Voodoojar

Not to get specific but a brand new bubble magnus curve 5 is like $110 buck on fishstreet. Thats an awesome skimmer and not expensive.

The entire world functions in the exact same was as the skimmer market I dont know why you're surprised.

Thanks for the lead, checking it out!!!

In the same way, sure, but the level of distortion varies with the influence of market control and collective hysteria.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania

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[Sk8r]

Make your own.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by jgln

For me it was just easier to buy one than to try and build one. Between research, time and parts to me it was not really a rip-off. One thing I don't know where you would buy or build is the part that creates the fine bubbles that makes the foam. Not rocket science but I wonder if you can buy that part?

Many ways.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/fish-s...3578/3669/3671

https://premiumaquatics.com/products...r-34-male.html

http://www.customaquatic.com/estore/...uct=PS-PMBLTR2

https://www.dripworks.com/drip-irrig...ei%20injectors


https://premiumaquatics.com/products...mmer-pump.html

http://www.marinedepot.com/AquaMaxx_...WPSBRP-vi.html

[somebloke]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Make your own.

I would but I'm too steeped in node.js code on my diy aquarium monitor/controller

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[jason2459]

Originally Posted by somebloke

I would but I'm too steeped in node.js code on my diy aquarium monitor/controller

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http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...1017691&page=2

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...readid=1386605

[ca1ore]

In some cases you do get really good build quality for your $$; in other cases it IS overpriced extruded junk.

[jason2459]

Price is all relative. To some Royal Exclusive is insanely priced for what you get. For some the price was well worth it for what they got. Who's wrong? Depends on who you ask.

[xanthurum]

I don't think they are that expensive. Especially considering they are one of the most important pieces of equipment.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by xanthurum

I don't think they are that expensive. Especially considering they are one of the most important pieces of equipment.

Keep in mind some people don't think so and some people don't use a skimmer at all and some believe they do more harm then good.

[BigDave]

How often do you buy a skimmer?

It's a lot like mattresses. You only buy one ever bazillion years... so they cost more because of that. If you bought a new one every month they'd be cheaper.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by BigDave

How often do you buy a skimmer?

It's a lot like mattresses. You only buy one ever bazillion years... so they cost more because of that. If you bought a new one every month they'd be cheaper.

Or you're like me and buy one every 1-2 years or less because you have fun trying and testing them out. Though my current one has so much flexibility it may last me a while (besides being the best performer by far...) I've already done quite a bit of testing and changes with it and plans for many more.

[Timfish]

Well, just so you know there's differences of opinion and expierence, I decided 20 years ago they were useless. And I found it an amusing confirmation later that of the two oldest coral farmers in the US (Steve Tyree and Tropicorium) had come to the same conclusion at the same time and as well Julian Sprung stopped using skimmers in the late '90s. But if you still believe one is necessary here's Feldman, et al, review of skimmers, note their conclusion is "bubbles are bubbles":

Protein Skimmer Performance, Pt 1
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/1/aafeature2

Protein Skimmer Performance, Pt 2
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/1/aafeature

And I find it curious that even though their research has provided the skimmer manufacturers two different potential metrics letting consumers be able to objectively compare one model or brand to another like they can with pumps (gph) or lights (Kelvin, Par), no one has adopted them.