Live rock question

_salty_ · 10/15/2018, 01:03 PM

Hi again Reef Central!

I have a 90 gallon reef ready tank with an off center internal overflow box. I’m waiting on back ordered parts for my skimmer and it’s looking like another 5 weeks minimum for it to be shipped. That will put me at the end of November before all of the equipment can be hooked up.

I wanted to order some gulf live rock and/or Tampa bay live rock but the weather at the end of November in St. Louis will most likely be in the 40s, probably colder. It’s 45 here right now.

If I ordered the rock now, can it “live” in a mostly filled tank if I don’t hook up the plumbing/sump/skimmer?? I would also like to rinse my sand and put that in with this live rock too. I imagine I would have to run a heater and power heads for circulation, Should I turn the light on too?? Do I feed the rock?

We are looking at temps in the mid 60s next week and this might be my last chance with decent weather. I expect some die off from the rock being shipped but hope it’s quite a bit less if the temp is not so cold.

What do ya’ll think? Am I setting myself up for a disaster by not being able to remove any waste via the skimmer? Am I showing my noobness?

-Salty Noob from St. Louis

lowtek · 10/15/2018, 01:21 PM

Hi. Im kind of new myself. But as far as keeping the rock live, yes you will be ok with just having the rock in your tank with heater, powerhead and maybe airstone without rest of plumbing.

Its best to start that part off early to cure the rock. Which will take a few to several weeks anyway.
Maybe do a waterchange or 2 every so often too. Because there will be some die off from rock. Hope this helps. More responses are coming don't worry.

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

mcgyvr · 10/15/2018, 02:30 PM

Sumps and skimmers are 100% optional equipment and not needed for any tank to be successful..
Just get the saltwater/sand in the tank and keep a powerhead and heater running and add the rock when it comes in..

kfisc · 10/15/2018, 02:52 PM

I'd consider leaving the lights on, knowing that an algae bloom will come sooner or later; probably sooner with the lights on and thus that much sooner to get the bloom cycle over and under control.

_salty_ · 10/15/2018, 03:07 PM

Thanks everyone, what about feeding it? I hope to get some crittters in the rock. I would assume the least amount of food possible while there is no exporting being done.

_salty_ · 10/15/2018, 03:09 PM

Mcgyvr, how would one maintain a tank without a sump or skimmer to export? Water changes and substrate cleaning more often?

mcgyvr · 10/15/2018, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _salty_

Mcgyvr, how would one maintain a tank without a sump or skimmer to export? Water changes and substrate cleaning more often?

I actually don't recommend substrate cleaning. I find it disturbs the microfauna,etc... that lives in the sand bed that consume detritus,etc... as well as the bacterial population living there..

Water changes are a potentially good way to rid the tank of many elements that are in excess..

Nitrifying bacteria does amazing work at breaking down ammonia/nitrites into nitrates and denitrifying bacteria will tank nitrates and turn them into nitrogen gas which escapes the tank in bubbles..

Bacteria does a HUGE amount of work in our tanks..

Skimmers at best are only 30% efficient and a sump is really just a place to store your equipment out of sight and also increases the water volume some which helps to a point.. Both though at absolutely not needed..

Corals consume stuff too,etc....

jlmawp · 10/16/2018, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _salty_

Mcgyvr, how would one maintain a tank without a sump or skimmer to export? Water changes and substrate cleaning more often?

Ask all of us crazy nano and pico tank people. No skimmer, no sump. Just water changes and bacteria.

T-dub · 10/16/2018, 03:15 PM

Although I agree that sump and skimmer aren't needed to be successful. (I run a canister filter and hob skimmer on my 30 gal) you do still need flow! Powerheads or pump returns do the trick but poor circulation will kill you. I do water changes about every 2-3 weeks @ 4 gallons per change. I siphon off the rocks and clean the glass well but if you don't do this your rock will essentially plug up with junk and there goes your filter.

Fourstars · 10/16/2018, 03:26 PM

Yep, Just set it up, Get a clean up crew started. feed Nori, and maybe a few fish and feed light. Easy on the light at first.

_salty_ · 10/16/2018, 05:30 PM

Thanks for your input everyone, appreciate it!! For those that do clean/stir/siphon their shallow sand, what do you use for this?

Mcgyvr, you mentioned nitrifying and denitiyfying bacteria. Can all of this bacteria be in my rock or would I have to keep a deep sand bed without disturbing it?

_salty_ · 10/16/2018, 05:32 PM

Can anyone recommend a book on saltwater bacteria that doesn’t sound like a scientist wrote it?

Fourstars · 10/16/2018, 05:43 PM

If you buy live rock from say Tampa, you will have all the bacteria you need. Just make sure you pick it up from the airport when it arrives and get it in your tank ASAP. You should not even have a cycle and can lightly stock it right away.

Anemone · 10/16/2018, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _salty_

Can anyone recommend a book on saltwater bacteria that doesn’t sound like a scientist wrote it?

Not a book, but a good start:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-06/dw/index.php

Kevin

smatter · 10/18/2018, 07:53 AM

I'm proud of you that you have chosen to use real live rock! It's the most fun part about setting up a tank for me. Most newbies go with dry rock because of the grossly exaggerated and irrational fear of adding an unwanted hitchhiker. Don't worry, Rutger Hauer isn't going to pop out of your rock. As others have said, keep the flow high, give it some light, and watch all the neat stuff emerge. I like to throw a little carbon in with new live rock to help keep any odors to a minimum, but with TBS or KP Aquatics rock die off isn't much of a problem.

mcgyvr · 10/18/2018, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smatter

Most newbies go with dry rock because of the grossly exaggerated and irrational fear of adding an unwanted hitchhiker.

Well.. that and the large cost savings with dry rock..

One can get dry rock shipped to them for what..
<$2/lb shipped..
or TBS rock (fantastic stuff don't get me wrong)..
But its ~$6/lb min shipped..

For 100lbs its $200 dry or $600 live

I've seen local fish stores sell live for $5-7+ a lb..

Fourstars · 10/18/2018, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

Well.. that and the large cost savings with dry rock..

One can get dry rock shipped to them for what..
<$2/lb shipped..
or TBS rock (fantastic stuff don't get me wrong)..
But its ~$6/lb min shipped..

For 100lbs its $200 dry or $600 live

I've seen local fish stores sell live for $5-7+ a lb..

I would argue that once you get that dead rock living and growing healthy bio flora and coraline you have spent as much on dead rock in time and additives.

mcgyvr · 10/18/2018, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourstars

I would argue that once you get that dead rock living and growing healthy bio flora and coraline you have spent as much on dead rock in time and additives.

We have had this discussion on this forum before.. (not with you but others)
Most won't agree that a value can be placed on time in a hobby...
I tried that before and got my hand slapped

I don't put any value in coralline either.. I have an urchin solely to keep coralline at bay... Why people want it is beyond me..

And you certainly don't need to add anything to dry rock to have a sufficient bacterial colony either... That just comes naturally.. Bacterial additives just help to speed up the process but are not needed at all..

But yes.. If you want an instant purple/pink tank then ponying up is certainly the best way to achieve that..
We each have our wants/needs/budgets..

To me "Nothing good happens fast in this hobby".. so I don't consider spending more for purple/pink rock to be anything good..

The ONLY reason I want to purchase live rock from a vendor like TBS is solely for the hitchhikers..
To me finding the stuff living/growing in the tank that I did not intentionally put there is the most fun of this hobby.. I welcome hitchhikers... No one wants nuisance problems though but most are fairly easy to solve..

I appreciate everyones opinions though so no need to argue

marcom12345 · 10/18/2018, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

We have had this discussion on this forum before.. (not with you but others)
Most won't agree that a value can be placed on time in a hobby...
I tried that before and got my hand slapped

I don't put any value in coralline either.. I have an urchin solely to keep coralline at bay... Why people want it is beyond me..

And you certainly don't need to add anything to dry rock to have a sufficient bacterial colony either... That just comes naturally.. Bacterial additives just help to speed up the process but are not needed at all..

But yes.. If you want an instant purple/pink tank then ponying up is certainly the best way to achieve that..
We each have our wants/needs/budgets..

To me "Nothing good happens fast in this hobby".. so I don't consider spending more for purple/pink rock to be anything good..

The ONLY reason I want to purchase live rock from a vendor like TBS is solely for the hitchhikers..
To me finding the stuff living/growing in the tank that I did not intentionally put there is the most fun of this hobby.. I welcome hitchhikers... No one wants nuisance problems though but most are fairly easy to solve..

I appreciate everyones opinions though so no need to argue

A little off topic, but you mention the hitchhikers and such....

I am a big fan of that aspect also... Or will be once I get up and going. But I'm not sure the store cured rock I'll be buying will gave much of that stuff...

I'd also be interested in a DSB for the same reasons... But unsure if that's a good route...

Sent from my LG-LS993 using Tapatalk

NikonN8 · 10/18/2018, 11:26 AM

My last tank was set up with TBS and Gulf LR - and no skimmer for months. Besides the bacteria there are often macros which help consume a lot of junk too. The only time I put a skimmer on my macro tank was when I overfed my crabs with silversides and found I had an oil slick going on the surface. A skimmer ripped it out quick and I never put it back online.

You'll be just fine.

Fourstars · 10/18/2018, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

We have had this discussion on this forum before.. (not with you but others)
Most won't agree that a value can be placed on time in a hobby...
I tried that before and got my hand slapped

I don't put any value in coralline either.. I have an urchin solely to keep coralline at bay... Why people want it is beyond me..

And you certainly don't need to add anything to dry rock to have a sufficient bacterial colony either... That just comes naturally.. Bacterial additives just help to speed up the process but are not needed at all..

But yes.. If you want an instant purple/pink tank then ponying up is certainly the best way to achieve that..
We each have our wants/needs/budgets..

To me "Nothing good happens fast in this hobby".. so I don't consider spending more for purple/pink rock to be anything good..

The ONLY reason I want to purchase live rock from a vendor like TBS is solely for the hitchhikers..
To me finding the stuff living/growing in the tank that I did not intentionally put there is the most fun of this hobby.. I welcome hitchhikers... No one wants nuisance problems though but most are fairly easy to solve..

I appreciate everyones opinions though so no need to argue

No arguing! your no fun

I hate coraline, but it is a good indication of tank maturity.

Rover88 · 10/18/2018, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

I've seen local fish stores sell live for $5-7+ a lb..

10-12$ up here locally in the great white north... and its just brewing in a brute can, no light and no 'critters' so to speak.

mcgyvr · 10/18/2018, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcom12345

A little off topic, but you mention the hitchhikers and such....

I am a big fan of that aspect also... Or will be once I get up and going. But I'm not sure the store cured rock I'll be buying will gave much of that stuff...

I'd also be interested in a DSB for the same reasons... But unsure if that's a good route...

All depends on the store... From a local fish stores "live" rock bin I'd expect pods/bristleworms/micro brittle starfish/hydroid jellies/asterina stars,etc...

smatter · 10/18/2018, 02:09 PM

The stuff in the bins around here looks like someone picked it up in the parking lot and threw it in some water. If you are lucky enough to find any life it's usually aiptasia and algae from someone's tank they gave up on. It's nothing like the primo rock we used to import from Walt Smith back in the Nineties. There'd be corals growing on that.

As far as dry rock goes, sure it's cheaper, and I've got plenty, it's sitting under the steps in my basement. I thought I'd try to save some money a few years back and hated everything about it. The look: Big barren white icebergs. The performance: A blank slate ripe for colonization by unwanted guests. Live rock is the last place I would try to save money.

_salty_ · 10/18/2018, 07:52 PM

I’ve only checked a couple live rock supplies from local stores and they are all very plain colored, heavy and don’t appear to be very porous. I have 80-90 lbs of cleaned, previously live,now dry rock that will make up the bulk of the tank and want 20ish lbs of real live rock from each TBS and GLR...100% for the hitch hikers and bacteria! I’m still kinda leery of what will be in the rock but I bought shoulder length gloves so I should be good with whatever I get! Side note, I’m terrified of the actual ocean but mesmerized by it so this tank is my tiny ocean

10/15/2018, 01:03 PM	#1
_salty_ Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: St. Louis Missouri Posts: 52	Live rock question Hi again Reef Central! I have a 90 gallon reef ready tank with an off center internal overflow box. I’m waiting on back ordered parts for my skimmer and it’s looking like another 5 weeks minimum for it to be shipped. That will put me at the end of November before all of the equipment can be hooked up. I wanted to order some gulf live rock and/or Tampa bay live rock but the weather at the end of November in St. Louis will most likely be in the 40s, probably colder. It’s 45 here right now. If I ordered the rock now, can it “live” in a mostly filled tank if I don’t hook up the plumbing/sump/skimmer?? I would also like to rinse my sand and put that in with this live rock too. I imagine I would have to run a heater and power heads for circulation, Should I turn the light on too?? Do I feed the rock? We are looking at temps in the mid 60s next week and this might be my last chance with decent weather. I expect some die off from the rock being shipped but hope it’s quite a bit less if the temp is not so cold. What do ya’ll think? Am I setting myself up for a disaster by not being able to remove any waste via the skimmer? Am I showing my noobness? -Salty Noob from St. Louis

10/15/2018, 02:30 PM	#3
mcgyvr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20,050	Sumps and skimmers are 100% optional equipment and not needed for any tank to be successful.. Just get the saltwater/sand in the tank and keep a powerhead and heater running and add the rock when it comes in.. __________________ Who me?

10/18/2018, 11:26 AM	#20
NikonN8 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2018 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 89	My last tank was set up with TBS and Gulf LR - and no skimmer for months. Besides the bacteria there are often macros which help consume a lot of junk too. The only time I put a skimmer on my macro tank was when I overfed my crabs with silversides and found I had an oil slick going on the surface. A skimmer ripped it out quick and I never put it back online. You'll be just fine. __________________ My name's Nate, not Nikon. In case it wasn't clear.

10/15/2018, 01:21 PM	#2
lowtek Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 111	Hi. Im kind of new myself. But as far as keeping the rock live, yes you will be ok with just having the rock in your tank with heater, powerhead and maybe airstone without rest of plumbing. Its best to start that part off early to cure the rock. Which will take a few to several weeks anyway. Maybe do a waterchange or 2 every so often too. Because there will be some die off from rock. Hope this helps. More responses are coming don't worry. Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

10/15/2018, 02:52 PM	#4
kfisc Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,020	I'd consider leaving the lights on, knowing that an algae bloom will come sooner or later; probably sooner with the lights on and thus that much sooner to get the bloom cycle over and under control.

10/15/2018, 03:07 PM	#5
_salty_ Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: St. Louis Missouri Posts: 52	Thanks everyone, what about feeding it? I hope to get some crittters in the rock. I would assume the least amount of food possible while there is no exporting being done.

10/15/2018, 03:09 PM	#6
_salty_ Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: St. Louis Missouri Posts: 52	Mcgyvr, how would one maintain a tank without a sump or skimmer to export? Water changes and substrate cleaning more often?

10/16/2018, 03:15 PM	#9
T-dub Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Marshall, MN Posts: 214	Although I agree that sump and skimmer aren't needed to be successful. (I run a canister filter and hob skimmer on my 30 gal) you do still need flow! Powerheads or pump returns do the trick but poor circulation will kill you. I do water changes about every 2-3 weeks @ 4 gallons per change. I siphon off the rocks and clean the glass well but if you don't do this your rock will essentially plug up with junk and there goes your filter.

10/16/2018, 03:26 PM	#10
Fourstars Registered Member. Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Third rock Posts: 291	Yep, Just set it up, Get a clean up crew started. feed Nori, and maybe a few fish and feed light. Easy on the light at first.

10/16/2018, 05:30 PM	#11
_salty_ Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: St. Louis Missouri Posts: 52	Thanks for your input everyone, appreciate it!! For those that do clean/stir/siphon their shallow sand, what do you use for this? Mcgyvr, you mentioned nitrifying and denitiyfying bacteria. Can all of this bacteria be in my rock or would I have to keep a deep sand bed without disturbing it?

10/16/2018, 05:32 PM	#12
_salty_ Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: St. Louis Missouri Posts: 52	Can anyone recommend a book on saltwater bacteria that doesn’t sound like a scientist wrote it?

10/16/2018, 05:43 PM	#13
Fourstars Registered Member. Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Third rock Posts: 291	If you buy live rock from say Tampa, you will have all the bacteria you need. Just make sure you pick it up from the airport when it arrives and get it in your tank ASAP. You should not even have a cycle and can lightly stock it right away.

10/18/2018, 07:53 AM	#15
smatter Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,055	I'm proud of you that you have chosen to use real live rock! It's the most fun part about setting up a tank for me. Most newbies go with dry rock because of the grossly exaggerated and irrational fear of adding an unwanted hitchhiker. Don't worry, Rutger Hauer isn't going to pop out of your rock. As others have said, keep the flow high, give it some light, and watch all the neat stuff emerge. I like to throw a little carbon in with new live rock to help keep any odors to a minimum, but with TBS or KP Aquatics rock die off isn't much of a problem.

10/18/2018, 02:09 PM	#24
smatter Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,055	The stuff in the bins around here looks like someone picked it up in the parking lot and threw it in some water. If you are lucky enough to find any life it's usually aiptasia and algae from someone's tank they gave up on. It's nothing like the primo rock we used to import from Walt Smith back in the Nineties. There'd be corals growing on that. As far as dry rock goes, sure it's cheaper, and I've got plenty, it's sitting under the steps in my basement. I thought I'd try to save some money a few years back and hated everything about it. The look: Big barren white icebergs. The performance: A blank slate ripe for colonization by unwanted guests. Live rock is the last place I would try to save money.

10/18/2018, 07:52 PM	#25
_salty_ Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: St. Louis Missouri Posts: 52	I’ve only checked a couple live rock supplies from local stores and they are all very plain colored, heavy and don’t appear to be very porous. I have 80-90 lbs of cleaned, previously live,now dry rock that will make up the bulk of the tank and want 20ish lbs of real live rock from each TBS and GLR...100% for the hitch hikers and bacteria! I’m still kinda leery of what will be in the rock but I bought shoulder length gloves so I should be good with whatever I get! Side note, I’m terrified of the actual ocean but mesmerized by it so this tank is my tiny ocean