Recently back in hobby and can't figure out the LED situation.

elefink · 01/17/2019, 03:37 PM

I used to keep a reef tank back 15-10 years ago with a 29 gallon that I upgraded to an 80. But then I moved across the country and sold it. I'm just now getting back into the hobby.

Back then, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, MH was the bomb. Literally. They blew up your electric bill but made keeping all sorts of creatures a lot easier. And there were lots of guides on how much light you needed for what, and what to get for what color.

I can't find anything that isn't a tome that can tell me how to calculate what LED's I need. We got a BIOCube 32 LED in December. I want to keep softies and maybe add a clam down the road. I don't even know what I can keep now with the stock lights, let alone how to upgrade them. One retrofit dealer says it's 5X brighter. I think that either that must say that the stock lights are barely enough to be able to see anything, or that their product must be brighter than the sun.

Is there any help someone can give me that won't require researching a doctoral dissertation before I understand the issue?

marcom12345 · 01/17/2019, 03:52 PM

Brstv YouTube channel has a few videos on lighting along with par numbers... I don't know of any"watt per gallon" for LED's personally but others might

Sent from my LG-LS993 using Tapatalk

elefink · 01/17/2019, 03:57 PM

Thanks. I'll look into those videos. The tank came with a PAR rating, but I'm also having a hard time finding out what lives with what PAR. And most lights don't seem to have a PAR rating.

cvrle1 · 01/17/2019, 10:44 PM

The whole Watts per gallon calculation is not used for LEDs. It's all about PAR, PUR and spread with LEDs.

In short, there are cheap options, expensive options and in between. In general look for fixtures that use 3W LEDs, those are a lot better than 0.5W LED fixtures. 0.5W ones can be used for shallow tanks and low light needing corals, but anything else and they will not be enough. Biocube 32 LED has peak PAR of 81, so that wont grow anything really.

Any 3W LED fixture will grow coral as the next one. What you end up paying for mostly is all the extra features. Basic units you just turn on and off, have 2 channels of light control, and those are adjusted via knob on the unit. Some units have timers added into them, but again they are very basic (mars aqua and viparspectra). Then you have units with combination of wifi, 6 channels of control, dawn/dusk/moon, Apex integration and so on. (SB reef lights, Reef breeders photon V2+, AI, Kessil, etc) For some they need justa a basic units and dont care about all the features so they go with cheap ones mentioned above. Some need to have it all, so they go with AI or Kessil for example. Some are fine at the middle so they go with SB or Reef Breeders.

There is a great thread now on the other message board (R 2 R) that is testing various LED units. Find it and look at last several pages with PAR readings. There are some great lights out of Asia that cost a lot less than top of the line units, have a lot of features that more expensive ones do, and they can give all these expensive units run for their money (ex: Noopsyche K7 Pro II)

mcgyvr · 01/18/2019, 05:50 AM

In general a "PAR" in the ~120-150+ range in a usable spectrum seems to be sufficient for corals.. Higher demanding corals may want to be in the 300 or more range..
Corals can be adapted to quite a range though.. Some may be 5-600 or more easily..

As for a wattage rule of thumb,etc...
I won't say wattage is not used with LEDs as really thats not true.. It could apply to LEDs just like it applied to any light source before that..
I've always used length of tank times width of tank divided by 18 (for high demand corals or 22 for lower light) and that divided by 3 gets me in the ballpark for LED wattage... One of the LED manufacturers put that out a while ago and it seems to work fairly well..
And just like any light source before it.. Wattage is only one aspect.. Usable spectrum plays a key role..

oreo57 · 01/18/2019, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

I've always used length of tank times width of tank divided by 18 (for high demand corals or 22 for lower light) and that divided by 3 gets me in the ballpark for LED wattage... ..

What units?
say (48 x 18) /18 = 48
divide by 2 its 16

???????

TO the O/P (and how to spend other peoples money)
Consider your old MH wattage for your old size tanks.. times .5 or .75
Make sure they are dimmable.

ALSO NOTE Chinese black boxes (and really any where their listed wattage is # of diodes x3 i.e 48 3W emitters = 144W)
are generally lying..
W = v x a
Most constant current drivers in there are rarely more than say .550A
And most of the voltages at that amperage is around 3-3.7 so
1.65W (worst case) to 2W each considering just blues and white (blue emitters w/ phosphors), some colors are "different" than this.

So the above box is REALLY say 48x 2 96W not 144W
Then there is lumen/watt efficiencies

sounds more complicated than it is.. or needs to be but a few new basics need to be considered..

ReefWreak · 01/18/2019, 09:39 AM

So I've been to Nano Land (biocube 29g), and done all there was to do with LEDs.

If you plan on keeping the hood on your Biocube, your options are very limited. That being said, you'll probably be able to keep most softies, LPS, and simple SPS (Montipora, stylophora, seriatopora [birdsnest]), though not the most colorful.

If you want to keep your hood, from doing a quick survey, since you've laid out that you don't have a PhD in electrical engineering, your option is to go with Steve's LEDs which still will take some DIY tweaking, drilling, and "creative mounting". But at least it has explicit instructions. I went with sort of a similar route, and it worked really well for me in my cube because I wanted to keep the hood/stock look.

If you're open to going open-top, you have a LOT more options. Either the Hydra 26, Radion XT15, or you could go with any of the litany of chinese black-box recommendations, but I'd stick with whatever brand or model-line is most recommended for larger tanks, just go with their smallest size. I would recommended something stretched out, so with >12" of area of LEDs, so that you don't have any coverage issues.

I wouldn't go with less than 66w of quality LEDs, and would recommend going with more than that (you'll likely find 96w).

You'll have to keep in mind that the context of your question is a whole separate can of worms than what most people spark up with the LED question, because Nanos are a special kind of beast.

From having done this whole rodeo before, my recommendation would be to ride on stock lighting for the first year, get some coral growth, stabilize nutrients and get some decent softy and LPS growth, and then you can look into upgrading. If you upgrade lights first, it could exacerbate the uncertainty of starting a new tank.

Also, for a nano, I'd strongly recommend adding a refugium to the second chamber, adding a skimmer to chamber 1, siphoning as often as possible, and moderate to high flow in the display. Nutrient removal is job #1 in a nano unless it's just a xenia or hair-algae grow-out tank.

mcgyvr · 01/18/2019, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oreo57

What units?
say (48 x 18) /18 = 48
divide by 2 its 16

???????

.

My fault..
I meant multiplied by 3 not divided by..
And inches
so a SPS tank 48 x 18 needs about 144 Watts of LEDs

high light tank..(SPS)
48 x 18 = 864
864/18 = 48
48*3 = 144 watts

A low/medium light tank would be 22 instead of 18 (softies,etc...)
48 x 18 = 864
864/22 = 39
39*3 = 117 watts

oreo57 · 01/18/2019, 11:57 AM

Quote:

LED BioCube 32 53PAR 81 Peak PAR 2,200Lux 3,430Pek Lux

Looks to be about 114 diodes 50/50 mix blue/white
and a strip of 19 blue diodes
sorry missed the tank..
Take it you are considering replacing the whole top?
Never mind see you mention retrofits..
Like this..
https://www.stevesleds.com/Biocube-3...lay_p_332.html

Would recommend the hyperviolet upgrade but NOTE:
Violet diodes typically have a shorter lifespan than the others. Generally more of a lens darkening thing than a complete burnout.. so light stays functioning..just slightly dimmer.

Bigger question.. Do you need 4x brighter?

Quote:

From having done this whole rodeo before, my recommendation would be to ride on stock lighting for the first year, get some coral growth, stabilize nutrients and get some decent softy and LPS growth, and then you can look into upgrading. If you upgrade lights first, it could exacerbate the uncertainty of starting a new tank.

wise advice but the upgrade includes dimming. BUT IF you aren't planning a FAST need for more light, you should also skip the upgrade..
Things could easily change in a year or 2..

Being more DIY I won't comment on what some call "affordable"
DO really like Luxeon LED's though..

oreo57 · 01/18/2019, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

My fault..
I meant multiplied by 3 not divided by..
And inches
so a SPS tank 48 x 18 needs about 144 Watts of LEDs

high light tank..(SPS)
48 x 18 = 864
864/18 = 48
48*3 = 144 watts

A low/medium light tank would be 22 instead of 18 (softies,etc...)
48 x 18 = 864
864/22 = 39
39*3 = 117 watts

Yea figured something was amiss..

thanks

Their cube is approx 20 x 21
About 70 watts..

about one black box..

1 Radion
borderline AI Prime

"stock" light looks to be around 30Watts.. or somewhere close..
and measurements are at 12"...........

small kit review, old but hey, can't do al the work..

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2285275

elefink · 01/18/2019, 12:54 PM

Thanks. It's funny because my husband has a masters in biomedical engineering. He actually is military and in charge of some spinal implants at FDA, and has built heart angioplasty devices by hand. He's capable of doing the electronic work, if we want to frankenstein the hood. The trouble is understanding what is needed. And I don't want him taking three months and half the basement making a new Mars rover to put on top of the tank.

I'm not in a great hurry to build up quickly, and not all that interested in keeping a lot of SPS. Zoanthids interest me a lot more, and since we have little kids, putting some xenia in there may be of interest. But I'm interested in having a specimen giant clam eventually, probably a fancy maxima. I'm really thinking of this as a specimen tank for that clam in long term that has some peaceful fish and some other colorful stuff along with it.

I've got a small skimmer in chamber one already, and it's getting some wet skimmate even after only several weeks. I have plans for refugium with cheato this year to work on the nutrient load as well, but chamber 2 is not really huge for that. Again, the husband is sitting around trying to design a frankenstein refugium. Light upgrades, I am hoping, won't be until the tank is at least 9 months old, maybe a year. I'm in no hurry. I like the process of building and planning. I'm an old lady by now, and not a 20 year old dude who needs to build the thing out entirely in three months. The process is of watching the thing develop and grow seems like half the fun.

So those are my ideas for direction with the tank.

cvrle1 · 01/18/2019, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

My fault..
I meant multiplied by 3 not divided by..
And inches
so a SPS tank 48 x 18 needs about 144 Watts of LEDs

high light tank..(SPS)
48 x 18 = 864
864/18 = 48
48*3 = 144 watts

A low/medium light tank would be 22 instead of 18 (softies,etc...)
48 x 18 = 864
864/22 = 39
39*3 = 117 watts

Interesting, thanks for the info. Cant say I saw this calculation before.

mcgyvr · 01/18/2019, 01:04 PM

IF I had a Biocube 32 I would buy a AI Prime HD to put over it and remove the stock top..

ReefWreak · 01/18/2019, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elefink

But I'm interested in having a specimen giant clam eventually, probably a fancy maxima. I'm really thinking of this as a specimen tank for that clam in long term that has some peaceful fish and some other colorful stuff along with it.

You may be able to get away with a maxima or other clam right at the top of the tank directly under the LEDs. They used to be kept in deeper tanks with Power Compact and VHO lighting, so even bad LEDs should be sufficient when you think it through.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elefink

I've got a small skimmer in chamber one already, and it's getting some wet skimmate even after only several weeks. I have plans for refugium with cheato this year to work on the nutrient load as well, but chamber 2 is not really huge for that. Again, the husband is sitting around trying to design a frankenstein refugium. Light upgrades, I am hoping, won't be until the tank is at least 9 months old, maybe a year. I'm in no hurry. I like the process of building and planning. I'm an old lady by now, and not a 20 year old dude who needs to build the thing out entirely in three months. The process is of watching the thing develop and grow seems like half the fun.

I appreciate that, and in that case would still stick with slow growth with what you have, and if it doesn't work, then you can upgrade down the line.

BTW, the easiest frankenstein refugium is taking a razor to the back vinyl (if yours has vinyl covering the entirety of the back) and cutting a strip the width of whatever chamber you want as a fuge (and cut it on that chamber only). Now the chamber is exposed to the back. Then, go to ebay and pick up a 20w LED floodlight for $12, hang it with zip ties (or something more elegant if that's your thing), wire it with an old lamp cord or power supply plug (your husband should be able to wire them up easily and seal them up from moisture), and then just let it shine into that chamber.

I did this when I set up my tank, and I think it was a savior of the tank early on. The chamber grew thick green hair algae all over it. Then, when it was water change day, I just turned off the rear chamber pumps, took a plastic card, scraped the GHA off of the walls, and siphoned the rear chamber dry, taking all of the GHA with the water. Then refill your tank with new water, and you're on your way.

It was a really simple and elegant solution to nutrient removal. I only needed to do it 2-3 times before nutrients were largely gone, and the system was in balance and didn't need hand-holding.

elefink · 01/18/2019, 01:59 PM

I've got kids and a cat. I'm not sure removing the top is in the interest of any living thing in my house. The lid was part of my decision to get this tank. We're going to need to figure out how to put any upgrade into the hood. That complicates things. I had an open top back when I was single, even with the cat. I just kept no furniture he could jump from near the tank. I don't think that's possible now.

elefink · 01/18/2019, 02:01 PM

This info on the refugium is really helpful, thanks.

Damphair · 01/25/2019, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

IF I had a Biocube 32 I would buy a AI Prime HD to put over it and remove the stock top..

I can second this. Just got one to replace my second prematurely dying Kessil and it seems plenty for the tank. One thing to keep in mind though is that with any "single" point LED like the AI Prime HD you WILL have shadows, especially depending on your live rock set up. So even though you have a decent amount of power you will likely have a lot of "no grow" spots for moderate/high light demanding corals due to the shadows.

My main concern moving from Kessil to the AI Prime HD was the "disco ball" effect described on other LED fixtures due to the relatively large distance between LEDs (in comparison with the super high density of the Kessil). I can say that it is very faintly there (compared to Kessil) but it's not noticeable unless you're really looking.

Another benefit of going hoodless like this is that it gives you more control over the temperature of the tank (at the expense of evaporation, and ATO is a must). Prior to going hoodless my Biocube was constantly over heating. This is one of the older non-LED models with a CFL hood though, so maybe the LED models are better for that.

01/17/2019, 03:57 PM	#3
elefink Regurgitated Fender Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 721	Thanks. I'll look into those videos. The tank came with a PAR rating, but I'm also having a hard time finding out what lives with what PAR. And most lights don't seem to have a PAR rating. __________________ MB In my universe, Spock has a beard. Current Tank Info: Returning to hobby after a 10 year hiatus with a Biocube 32.

01/17/2019, 10:44 PM	#4
cvrle1 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Surrey, BC Posts: 454	The whole Watts per gallon calculation is not used for LEDs. It's all about PAR, PUR and spread with LEDs. In short, there are cheap options, expensive options and in between. In general look for fixtures that use 3W LEDs, those are a lot better than 0.5W LED fixtures. 0.5W ones can be used for shallow tanks and low light needing corals, but anything else and they will not be enough. Biocube 32 LED has peak PAR of 81, so that wont grow anything really. Any 3W LED fixture will grow coral as the next one. What you end up paying for mostly is all the extra features. Basic units you just turn on and off, have 2 channels of light control, and those are adjusted via knob on the unit. Some units have timers added into them, but again they are very basic (mars aqua and viparspectra). Then you have units with combination of wifi, 6 channels of control, dawn/dusk/moon, Apex integration and so on. (SB reef lights, Reef breeders photon V2+, AI, Kessil, etc) For some they need justa a basic units and dont care about all the features so they go with cheap ones mentioned above. Some need to have it all, so they go with AI or Kessil for example. Some are fine at the middle so they go with SB or Reef Breeders. There is a great thread now on the other message board (R 2 R) that is testing various LED units. Find it and look at last several pages with PAR readings. There are some great lights out of Asia that cost a lot less than top of the line units, have a lot of features that more expensive ones do, and they can give all these expensive units run for their money (ex: Noopsyche K7 Pro II) Last edited by cvrle1; 01/17/2019 at 10:52 PM.

01/18/2019, 05:50 AM	#5
mcgyvr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20,050	In general a "PAR" in the ~120-150+ range in a usable spectrum seems to be sufficient for corals.. Higher demanding corals may want to be in the 300 or more range.. Corals can be adapted to quite a range though.. Some may be 5-600 or more easily.. As for a wattage rule of thumb,etc... I won't say wattage is not used with LEDs as really thats not true.. It could apply to LEDs just like it applied to any light source before that.. I've always used length of tank times width of tank divided by 18 (for high demand corals or 22 for lower light) and that divided by 3 gets me in the ballpark for LED wattage... One of the LED manufacturers put that out a while ago and it seems to work fairly well.. And just like any light source before it.. Wattage is only one aspect.. Usable spectrum plays a key role.. __________________ Who me?

01/18/2019, 12:54 PM	#11
elefink Regurgitated Fender Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 721	Thanks. It's funny because my husband has a masters in biomedical engineering. He actually is military and in charge of some spinal implants at FDA, and has built heart angioplasty devices by hand. He's capable of doing the electronic work, if we want to frankenstein the hood. The trouble is understanding what is needed. And I don't want him taking three months and half the basement making a new Mars rover to put on top of the tank. I'm not in a great hurry to build up quickly, and not all that interested in keeping a lot of SPS. Zoanthids interest me a lot more, and since we have little kids, putting some xenia in there may be of interest. But I'm interested in having a specimen giant clam eventually, probably a fancy maxima. I'm really thinking of this as a specimen tank for that clam in long term that has some peaceful fish and some other colorful stuff along with it. I've got a small skimmer in chamber one already, and it's getting some wet skimmate even after only several weeks. I have plans for refugium with cheato this year to work on the nutrient load as well, but chamber 2 is not really huge for that. Again, the husband is sitting around trying to design a frankenstein refugium. Light upgrades, I am hoping, won't be until the tank is at least 9 months old, maybe a year. I'm in no hurry. I like the process of building and planning. I'm an old lady by now, and not a 20 year old dude who needs to build the thing out entirely in three months. The process is of watching the thing develop and grow seems like half the fun. So those are my ideas for direction with the tank. __________________ MB In my universe, Spock has a beard. Current Tank Info: Returning to hobby after a 10 year hiatus with a Biocube 32.

01/18/2019, 01:04 PM	#13
mcgyvr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20,050	IF I had a Biocube 32 I would buy a AI Prime HD to put over it and remove the stock top.. __________________ Who me?

01/17/2019, 03:37 PM	#1
elefink Regurgitated Fender Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 721	Recently back in hobby and can't figure out the LED situation. I used to keep a reef tank back 15-10 years ago with a 29 gallon that I upgraded to an 80. But then I moved across the country and sold it. I'm just now getting back into the hobby. Back then, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, MH was the bomb. Literally. They blew up your electric bill but made keeping all sorts of creatures a lot easier. And there were lots of guides on how much light you needed for what, and what to get for what color. I can't find anything that isn't a tome that can tell me how to calculate what LED's I need. We got a BIOCube 32 LED in December. I want to keep softies and maybe add a clam down the road. I don't even know what I can keep now with the stock lights, let alone how to upgrade them. One retrofit dealer says it's 5X brighter. I think that either that must say that the stock lights are barely enough to be able to see anything, or that their product must be brighter than the sun. Is there any help someone can give me that won't require researching a doctoral dissertation before I understand the issue? __________________ MB In my universe, Spock has a beard. Current Tank Info: Returning to hobby after a 10 year hiatus with a Biocube 32.

01/17/2019, 03:52 PM	#2
marcom12345 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Battle creek, Michigan Posts: 101	Brstv YouTube channel has a few videos on lighting along with par numbers... I don't know of any"watt per gallon" for LED's personally but others might Sent from my LG-LS993 using Tapatalk

01/18/2019, 09:39 AM	#7
ReefWreak Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Astoria, NYC Posts: 10,159	So I've been to Nano Land (biocube 29g), and done all there was to do with LEDs. If you plan on keeping the hood on your Biocube, your options are very limited. That being said, you'll probably be able to keep most softies, LPS, and simple SPS (Montipora, stylophora, seriatopora [birdsnest]), though not the most colorful. If you want to keep your hood, from doing a quick survey, since you've laid out that you don't have a PhD in electrical engineering, your option is to go with Steve's LEDs which still will take some DIY tweaking, drilling, and "creative mounting". But at least it has explicit instructions. I went with sort of a similar route, and it worked really well for me in my cube because I wanted to keep the hood/stock look. If you're open to going open-top, you have a LOT more options. Either the Hydra 26, Radion XT15, or you could go with any of the litany of chinese black-box recommendations, but I'd stick with whatever brand or model-line is most recommended for larger tanks, just go with their smallest size. I would recommended something stretched out, so with >12" of area of LEDs, so that you don't have any coverage issues. I wouldn't go with less than 66w of quality LEDs, and would recommend going with more than that (you'll likely find 96w). You'll have to keep in mind that the context of your question is a whole separate can of worms than what most people spark up with the LED question, because Nanos are a special kind of beast. From having done this whole rodeo before, my recommendation would be to ride on stock lighting for the first year, get some coral growth, stabilize nutrients and get some decent softy and LPS growth, and then you can look into upgrading. If you upgrade lights first, it could exacerbate the uncertainty of starting a new tank. Also, for a nano, I'd strongly recommend adding a refugium to the second chamber, adding a skimmer to chamber 1, siphoning as often as possible, and moderate to high flow in the display. Nutrient removal is job #1 in a nano unless it's just a xenia or hair-algae grow-out tank.

01/18/2019, 01:59 PM	#15
elefink Regurgitated Fender Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 721	I've got kids and a cat. I'm not sure removing the top is in the interest of any living thing in my house. The lid was part of my decision to get this tank. We're going to need to figure out how to put any upgrade into the hood. That complicates things. I had an open top back when I was single, even with the cat. I just kept no furniture he could jump from near the tank. I don't think that's possible now. __________________ MB In my universe, Spock has a beard. Current Tank Info: Returning to hobby after a 10 year hiatus with a Biocube 32.

01/18/2019, 02:01 PM	#16
elefink Regurgitated Fender Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 721	This info on the refugium is really helpful, thanks. __________________ MB In my universe, Spock has a beard. Current Tank Info: Returning to hobby after a 10 year hiatus with a Biocube 32.