Cryptocaryon Irritans - tank transfer method

[snorvich]

The theory behind the tank transfer method for treating Cryptocaryon irritans is to move a fish from one tank to the other when the parasites fall off the fish. This happens during dark times in the aquarium so moving the animal first thing in the morning is preferred. The parasites that fall off do not have the ability to complete the life cycle and re-attach. Since the originating tank is a QT tank, simply drain it, clean it, and reestablish it for the next tank transfer. The filter floss used as a seeded biological filter is tossed as is all water. Any PVC is sterilized and any transfer equipment as well. This depletes and eventually eliminates the parasites available to reattach and as a consequence will create a parasite free fish. This is not without stress to the fish but it is in some ways better than copper and just as effective as either copper or hyposalinity. I personally advocate a transfer not using nets.

[Sk8r]

If you have an external parasitic infestation in a species sensitive to copper and adversely affected by hypo, this is a treatment you can use: with a mandarin, should you ever need to treat, try pipetting concentrated pods from a bottle, several times a day. Species sensitive to copper include angels, dragonets, eels, and no few others. Skill helps.

[fppf]

Was thinking about this exact method.
I think I may have picked up a new fish with ich.

One other thought though, trying to save the effort and money of changing 20 gallons of water, filter, cleaning.

I read many papers that say 1 hour at at least 40 degrees C will kill even tomont stage. So when you move the fish in the morning turn on a large heater in the tank and cook it all day. Then later in the evening set the heater back to normal temperature and through in a bag of ice to cool the water. Should be ich free and good to go in the morning to move the fish back.

This should only need 2 tanks setup and a minimal amount of work to make the other ich free. Has anyone had success with the transfer method? Looks good on paper, but.... How does the fish fair being moved everyday?

[prop-frags]

Originally Posted by fppf

I read many papers that say 1 hour at at least 40 degrees C will kill even tomont stage. So when you move the fish in the morning turn on a large heater in the tank and cook it all day. Then later in the evening set the heater back to normal temperature and through in a bag of ice to cool the water. Should be ich free and good to go in the morning to move the fish back.

I would be concerned about die off of bacteria or other organisms and fouling the water quality with this method. Perhaps if you were running GAC and skimming?

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by fppf

Was thinking about this exact method.
I think I may have picked up a new fish with ich.

One other thought though, trying to save the effort and money of changing 20 gallons of water, filter, cleaning.

I read many papers that say 1 hour at at least 40 degrees C will kill even tomont stage. So when you move the fish in the morning turn on a large heater in the tank and cook it all day. Then later in the evening set the heater back to normal temperature and through in a bag of ice to cool the water. Should be ich free and good to go in the morning to move the fish back.

Not relevant to the tank transfer method.

This should only need 2 tanks setup and a minimal amount of work to make the other ich free. Has anyone had success with the transfer method? Looks good on paper, but.... How does the fish fair being moved everyday?

This is also an effective way of quarantining. As to why it works, please familiarize yourself with the life cycle in the sticky desribing it.

[fppf]

Originally Posted by prop-frags

I would be concerned about die off of bacteria or other organisms and fouling the water quality with this method. Perhaps if you were running GAC and skimming?

Yeah, that is a good point. I don't know what temperature and how long the biologicals would hold on for. That is exactly what I was thinking about trying to do. Was also trying to think of a good way to link the two tanks without passing ich from one to the other. Trying to move a sick fish everyday can't be easy on its health.


Thanks, but I all to well understand the life cycle of ich. And this is exactly the tank transfer method I was discussing, so it is very relevant.

[dela]

How often do you move the fish? Every day? Seems like every 3rd day would be just as effective if I understood the life cycle.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by dela

How often do you move the fish? Every day? Seems like every 3rd day would be just as effective if I understood the life cycle.

I agree with 3 days. Always move in the morning as parasites fall at night. Raising temperature is not a good idea.

[dela]

And how long would the treatment last?

I've been using 5 gallon buckets to make things easy on me. All of the fish look healthy. I was worried the tang might loose it, but it has behaved very well. With each bucket transfer I add some fresh macro into the bucket.

[hvacman250]

Can someone edit the first post and elaborate more exactly on directions? Might help newcomers.

I am using this treatment for the first time on 7 fish, 2 being Tangs. Hopefully, Im doing it right:

Day 1 - fish in QT.
Day 4 - in AM, but before tank lights come on (8-9 AM EST), transfer fish to new tank, matching temp and salinity. Transfer as little water as possible.
Day 7 - repeat.
Day 10 - repeat.
Day 13 - repeat and done.

After transferring, I sterilized all PVC, heaters, filters/powerheads, thermometer, etc with a mild bleach colution. Rinse well. Let dry before next transfer.

Does it matter when I transfer fish? If the parasite falls off at night, should I transfer before dawn? Or is that too stressful for fish?

[dela]

I agree. More details of what is recommended would be good.

I had no idea how long to go for when I did this, but your two weeks seems a little short.

[hvacman250]

Originally Posted by dela

I agree. More details of what is recommended would be good.

I had no idea how long to go for when I did this, but your two weeks seems a little short.

I'm going by the experts advice here, specifically on pages 3-4: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...2088270&page=2

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by hvacman250

Can someone edit the first post and elaborate more exactly on directions? Might help newcomers.

I am using this treatment for the first time on 7 fish, 2 being Tangs. Hopefully, Im doing it right:

Day 1 - fish in QT.
Day 4 - in AM, but before tank lights come on (8-9 AM EST), transfer fish to new tank, matching temp and salinity. Transfer as little water as possible.
Day 7 - repeat.
Day 10 - repeat.
Day 13 - repeat and done.

After transferring, I sterilized all PVC, heaters, filters/powerheads, thermometer, etc with a mild bleach colution. Rinse well. Let dry before next transfer.

Exactly

Does it matter when I transfer fish? If the parasite falls off at night, should I transfer before dawn? Or is that too stressful for fish?

In the morning but not obsessively so. Remember that the trophont leaves the fish and becomes what is called a protomont. This protomont travels to the substrate and begins to crawl around for usually two to eight hours, but it could go for as long as eighteen hours after it leaves it's fish host. Once the protomont attaches to a surface, it begins to encyst and is now called a tomont. Division inside the cyst into hundreds of daughter parasites, called tomites, begins shortly thereafter. These are the infectious portion of the lifecycle. Tank transfer totally obviates the infection portion. The reason for four transfers is because not all trophonts leave the fish synchronously.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by dela

I agree. More details of what is recommended would be good.

I had no idea how long to go for when I did this, but your two weeks seems a little short.

Please see my explanation above

[dela]

Just four transfers? That's easy if you have two sets of everything!

Although I read the cyst will sometimes form on the fish itself. Not sure what that would look like, but I'm guessing that would change things up a bit.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by dela

Just four transfers? That's easy if you have two sets of everything!

Although I read the cyst will sometimes form on the fish itself. Not sure what that would look like, but I'm guessing that would change things up a bit.

Not really. What is your source for "I read the cyst will sometimes form on the fish itself" Two sets of everything does not have to be expensive. Of course, it is always your choice.

[dela]

Steve,

I read this on your ich stickies.. Did I misunderstand what this is saying?

14. All white nodules fall off the fish and move on to the cyst stage. Untrue. It has been discovered that, on very rare occasions (we don't know why) the white nodule will encyst and rupture while still on the fish.

For this reason, I thought the tank transfer method had to go on longer.

And for anyone doing the tank transfer method, it really does help to have two sets of equipment. I bought some $15 HOB filters and heaters that worked well for this. Also, making up a large batch of water beforehand makes it much less of a hassle. And the nice thing about the tank transfer is that you can pretty much feed all you want on the day of the transfer.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by dela

Steve,

I read this on your ich stickies.. Did I misunderstand what this is saying?



For this reason, I thought the tank transfer method had to go on longer.

And for anyone doing the tank transfer method, it really does help to have two sets of equipment. I bought some $15 HOB filters and heaters that worked well for this. Also, making up a large batch of water beforehand makes it much less of a hassle. And the nice thing about the tank transfer is that you can pretty much feed all you want on the day of the transfer.

No, you did not misunderstand. However the rarity of this occurrence means that while one cycle may not catch it subsequent ones will. I personally feel that tank transfer is the way to go and the cost of two sets of equipment is minor compared to the cost of protecting your embedded base.

[1carpenter]

i recently purchased a pair of black clowns, i made the mistake of not setting up a qt tank, it took about three days before they showed any signs of ich but they do have it. I did end up setting up a qt tank & now i'm worried that they may have contaminated my display tank!!! Any good suggestions?

[snorvich]

Wrong thread as this one is about tank transfer. Best to post as a new thread in fish disease forum. Yes, your DT is contaminated. Are you sure you have ich and not brook? When you start a new thread for this, many of us will help.

[1carpenter]

My bad thx for the direction!

[snorvich]

No problem. Just trying to keep the thread intact for searching integrity. Thanks!

[OK]

Here is an excellent article on this transfer method. The article is many years old and I can't believe it hasn't been more widely distributed.

http://atj.net.au/marineaquaria/3daytransfer.html

I've been advocating this method for years on RC to mostly def ears... everyone wants a quick easy fix. Once you read the article it really makes sense why it works. This method is performed on all fish entering my tank even if they show no signs of ich in QT.

A few notes from my experience using this method...

I don't use any filtration... IMO They aren't in the water long enough for ammonia to build to toxic levels, even if it does, an ammonia neutralizer would suffice.

I do substantially drop the salinity to reduce stress on the fish. Not quite hypo but close.

I use Rubbermaid tubs with PVC pipes and fittings. They are very easy to clean and dry.

No need to sanitize anything. The act of being dry for 24 hrs kills any cysts.

Always use a smooth clear container to catch and transfer the fish... No Nets. Yes you will transfer some water, but you would have to transfer those same cysts at minimum twice before they would hatch... small chance in one cup of water out of 10 or 20 gallons.

Good luck! It's not as hard as it sounds.

[alaska clowns]

OK - What do you use for water circulation/aeration on the Rubbermaid tubs? I don't think an empty HOB filter would hang nicely on the edge for me; an air pump and stone, maybe?
Thank you!

[hvacman250]

Originally Posted by alaska clowns

OK - What do you use for water circulation/aeration on the Rubbermaid tubs? I don't think an empty HOB filter would hang nicely on the edge for me; an air pump and stone, maybe?
Thank you!

I use a HOB filter. On certain containers, it does want to wobble some. The container is close to a wall so the filter is supported partially by the back wall you place the container against.
A powerhead is also fine for water movement.

The only downfall to this treatment is cost and stress, but I feel its worth it for Ich. If you used a 10 gallon tank, 50 gallons isnt too bad; a 30 gallon tank for bigger fish (I use a 29 gallon) is 150 gallons, or ~$50 worth of salt to most people. When I do this treatment, I treat multiple fish to keep cost down.