Trade Secrets of the Polyp Pimps-

[SIR PATRICK]

Saw a single polyp paly on some forums for $999.99.....

Free Shipping....

Beautiful polyp too.

What would you say you can have that polyp too? Or maybe something better, or just as good, but completely different? You can, but first you need to learn the "trade secrets of the polyp pimps".

There is always a huge craze for the next big polyp, but now we are up to $1k/polyp?

We are going to touch on the subject of polyp, zoa or paly, morphing-

Polyps change, aka morph, under many different conditions. They rarely keep the same apearance (to a degree) from one tank to another. There are many factors that can effect the way these polyps will look, both immediately and long term, such as-

Lighting, nutrient level, carbon, skimming, feeding, temp, parameters, ect.

Different types of polyps will change apperences, based on where they were originally collected or the tank conditions are kept. Higher or lower light, fluctuations in temperature, availability of nutrients and husbandry of your tank, lighting intensity could all make some very basic/boring polyps turn into something nice.

Most polyps you see, many times sold single polyp for big $$, are just morphs they were able to come up with in their varying (and for the pros- tried and true) systems, that are actually very common. Why do you think the commonly called- armor of god/devils armor- have so many "high end" morphs? They change easily under different conditions.

Most things that will cause a polyp to morph are good, including-

High/low lighting- Some polyps look and thrive best under different lighting. Sometimes high or even low lighting causes speckles/sparkles, neon colors, deeper than normal tones and even color of the disk/skirts. High light loving corals will die, or brown out, without enough light, and low light corals will gennerally brighten up and look very nice....till you give them too much and they close up/melt.

Temperature- Temperatures will often effect brightness and health. Healthier the polyp the better it will look.

Nutrient levels- Major player here...some zoas that enjoy really high nutrient levels, or even dirty water seem to be very common, or for a better word- boring, are usually pretty drab and dull colored and dont do well in clean water, but if you can get them into very clean (but not too clean) water, they will always look much nicer, until you reach that fine line of too clean and they all die...dont want to do that, but can happen.

Carbon use/skimming/nutrient export-Impacts nutrient levels

There are also some bad things that cause morphing, that unfortunatly are not very safe/healthy for polyps, that are beleive it or not practiced by alot of polyp pimps, including-

Bleaching- This can be easily done with light. A bleaching polypcan many times throw off some very bright colors as it bleaches, and many times more so will do the same as they recover from a light bleaching. Bleaching can also happen due to sudden extreme differences in temperature. Just like light, some very cool colors can happen during a partial bleaching, or recovery from bleaching. Both of these are commonly called "hyper-morphing" Go ahead and google it....it happens....

Starvation- Another form of bleaching.....just colors change slower. Dangers are polyps not receiving enough nutrient to sustain and die. A starving coral will likely look its best (to our eyes at least) as it slowely melts away. Other polyps get their deepest colors when feed, and their lightest colors when not fed Nutrient level and feeding schedul greatly impact what any given polyp is going to look like in your system.

Alk swings- Will affect vibrance in your polyps.

Just touching the tip of the iceburg here....but I have typed enough for tonight, I will add more sooner.

Just know that anyone of us that has a real passion for zoanthids and the growings of a reef can have some of these "pimped polyps" in their own tanks with a bit of time, energy and patience. Just know what these polyps (at least most of them) were not collected out of the ocean looking like these pictures.....they have been morphed. Most of these high dolar/polyp are common polyps, that due to some variation in the tank caused these polyps to look so much better (not to mention the countless worse ones that morphed negetively) and advertised at really high cost. Once you figure out what the polyp likes, can thrive in, will survive in, and where it is best looking in at the end, you too can grow these same polyps in your own tanks.

You can also have some really nice looking polyps that are out of this world just wither away and die- from the polyps limits being pushed too far and it melting away, which many times is when they really look brightest, most neon and unlike anything else you have seen, just be warned....

Anyone have some to add in the time being? I havnt touched base yet at all on photography, gel covers, lighting, photoshopping/editting, ect....still a ton of trade secrets to share so anyone of us with a regular screen name can grow/morph your own insane polyps like the ones the "polyp pimps" are rolling out the red carpets yearly for....

Taking a zoa polyp and letting it turn into something very different is easy....and alot cheaper, and alot more interesting than getting ripped off by a high $$$ polyp that may or may not be healthy or look the same in your system- short term or long term.

[SIR PATRICK]

High dollar/Low dollar, we have all had that beautiful polyps become drab/ugly till it died or we were able to make it happy or just melt away for no apparent reason, or just not open....

High dollar Low dollar, we have all gotten that $5 zoa rock, at least once that was brown with stubby skirts become our favorite bright speckled purple polyp with the awesome wavy skirts, or watch a boring polyp all of a sudden become your favorite as it settles into its happy spot.

[SIR PATRICK]

The pros have nothing but time to play in their tanks and experiment....most of these top $$$ polyps are just lucky (and many times professionally experimented with) morphs of some very very common and insanely prolific polyps, sold in transitions, at an unstable stage of morphing or even on the brink of death....

[SIR PATRICK]

Its all about the money these days- dont be fooled and sucked in....These polyps all started as $5/frag somewhere down the line....strait from the ocean.

[SIR PATRICK]

And think about this....Now that we have seen a $999.99 single polyp for sale....

$200/polyp doesnt sound so bad now does it? Dont fall for it....Its exactly what they want you to think. Who cares if they sell 1 or 2 of the advertised $1K polyps- the coulple hundred dollar single polyps are going to sell even harder now, now that $100/polyp sounds cheap!!!

Just another trade secret....

You will see people soon posting pics online of their recent high $$ purchase.....probly at least double the people who actually baught this crazy priced polyps. The catch you might ask?

How many of these people you think actually paid full price, or even any price? Its common practice (not mentioning any names) to buy your own coral as an illusion of people actually being crazy enough to spend this price. Others will give these high end corals to people for free....as long as its secret and it publisized that they baught it and are happy....no joke- seen it w/ my own eyes many times...end experianced offers to participate. The goose follows the gander....but sometimes the gander is the one helping to rip you off, aka monkey see monkey do, only the monkey doing didnt really do anything...If a high end polyp is selling well and everyone is happy- take the info with a grain of salt....you never really know.

[SIR PATRICK]

Nobody has experience in zoa morphing?

Having it happen to them, good or bad?

Had experiences in how to get them to look their best, or completely look different all together?

Success or defeat stories? Morphed polyps going good or bad?

[SIR PATRICK]

Today, I have learned a new method of intentional polyp morphing....or in my freinds case, accidental-

She overdosed her tank with peroxide- ooops!

Her fire and ice went into a crazy morph looking very interesting, and has already been tagged with another name by other reafers, even though these polyps are just unnaturally morphed accidently by peroxide expossure.

People have gone to extremes, on purpose, or as my freind did- on accident, to come up with some real crazy colors and morphs- sometimes producing the next top $$ one hit wonder polyp.

Such extreme methods include-

Ice water bath
Hot water bath
Bleach dips
starvation
Dye dips
High light bleaching
Hyper/Hypo salinity
Eleveated levels of photosynthesis
Excessive oxygen exposure
Intentional Expulsion of zooxanthellae

All these methods are extreme methods of Intentional polyp morphing. There have been individuals/groups who have, and still do practice these many times very unsafe practices to try and develop their next hot polyp...many times to the stress and detriment to the corals- many times to be found out too late, after purchased for top $$ only to wither away and melt unexpectedly...

I do not recommend or condone these methods, but wanted to bring this to light for those not in the know...Trust me, it happens, all in the name of greed/comercialism of coral collecting, trying to find Americas next top polyp.

[SIR PATRICK]

Now- please dont get me wrong....I am deffinitely not saying that all "polyp Pimps" are doing these drastic and unsafe methods. Many are doing it in a correct and reletively safe manner, as many of us reefers do.

I myself have intentionally morphed many many polyps in my years of reefkeeping, and most of these methods have worked great with lasting effects on polyps that have grown wonderfull in great health for years to come.

I will touch base on some safer methods that work and are much more commonly acceptible ways soon.

I am hoping other polyp enthusiest will chime in, or even share pictures of their polyps morphing from one morph to the next and sharing their methods or even what they beleive to be the cause to condone the morph effect.

[mr9iron]

I'm interested in this topic, not for money, but for something to experiment with. I can't wait to hear from others.

[SIR PATRICK]

Some of the safer methods I have used have proven great results, have been very safe....at least until I went past what the polyp could handle crossing the line into the danger zone.

Usually, sorry to say, after you cross the line into the danger zone is when, many times, result in the coolest morphs. Neon colors, pastels, speckles, striations, ect....you know- everything the next hot polyp should have...

I have found that pushing the limits on-

Lighting, low and high
Water quality, ULNS to unusually dirty
feeding/nutrient levels in the water column
Shading/direct light

All of these factors can result in some really cool, and significant changes, in your polyps in your home tanks. Most of these are successful done very very slow....they are not as fast as the extreme methods listed above, and are much safer....till you cross the line of what they can handle.

I have found that different types of polyps like different conditions, so slow trial end error work best. I have found you can get some of the deepest blues in the shade, hottest pinks in the most light the polyps can handle, drastic changes in color due to borderline bleaching, pastels in very clean water with enough water column nutrients to allow the polyps to survive (but sometimes not thrive) much like SPS. Wavey, curly or even exageratedly long skirts from acclimation to heavy flow, Dark vibrant reds on brown from excessive nutrient, and oranges or whites from the lack of nutrients relying solely on photosynthesis of high lighting.

[that Fish Guy]

So I am guessing that you know somebody that does this?

How else would you know all these secrets?

[that Fish Guy]

I realize that you are trying to help people here and I commend you for it.

But I could see this doing more harm than good.



I once watched a documentary on counterfeiting currency on TV.

They interviewed a guy in prison about it and asked him "how did you learn about making fake money."

He replied "I watched a show just like this one and they told me step by step how to print fake money".

So basically he had no intention of printing money but watched a show which wanted to show people what happens when you commit this crime (Prison).

Then he went ahead and did it anyway.

So had this guy never seen this show that wanted to help prevent counterfeiting he never would have done it and never went to prison and ruined his life.

I know most people are honest and will not do this but right here you lay it all out just like the tv show.

Such extreme methods include-

Ice water bath
Hot water bath
Bleach dips
starvation
Dye dips
High light bleaching
Hyper/Hypo salinity
Eleveated levels of photosynthesis
Excessive oxygen exposure
Intentional Expulsion of zooxanthellae

Now people wanting to make a quick buck will go ahead and do this.

So just like the show you may be making things worse and we may see more $1,000 polyps now.




I know you have good intentions I am just looking at the big picture.

Hopefully I am wrong and it helps alot of reefers.

[SIR PATRICK]

On another forum, someone disagreed with me, and it was braught to my attention-

Alot of these new high end polyps are coming from mariculture, and I couldnt agree more!

Racks are placed in protected areas of the ocean, specifically for growing raised coral, clams and even sustainable food- fish.

Many times these racks are in sheltered lagoons, open deep oceans, tidal areas and shallows, all of which have very very different conditions.

Anyone notice all these hyper bright veitnamese based polyps? You know- the "green bay packers", "whammin watermellons" "Dragon eyes", "nuclear green dragon eyes"? All very common corals you can buy for $5-$10 for large frags....These super bright, sometimes slighly color variated (and highly advertised) are almost all maricultured....many times grown in the same areas of mariculture that those real nice maricultured (my favorite) SPS are grown.

These extra "special" morphs of these very very common polyps are maricultured in a slightly, and sometimes drastically, different locations, depths, and flow areas than normally collected in the wild, hence the vibrant differences in appearence.

For those of you unfamiliar with the most common of common veitnamese polps, do a search of "wild collected veitnamese polyps", then do a search of the names commonly given to these corals and add ultra, rare, hyper, ect to the beginnings of their names....you will quickly realize and see for yourself exactly what I mean...

Many areas of common mariculture occur in-

The solomon islands
Africa
Philippines
Marshal islands
Fiji
Japan
Palau

These different locations, depths, tides and availability (or lack of) have caused some really nice morphs of some very common polyps.....but watch out....they can/will go right back to their wild colors if their new habitat (your tank) doesnt match where it was maricultured at, and might look just like the common colected wild polyp it truely is.

I have found that maricultured polyps, especially the most vibrant and colorfull- or "different" polyps tend to keep their look in SPS type conditions.

[SIR PATRICK]

Originally Posted by that Fish Guy

So I am guessing that you know somebody that does this?

How else would you know all these secrets?

Ive been around a while....

[SIR PATRICK]

Originally Posted by mr9iron

I'm interested in this topic, not for money, but for something to experiment with. I can't wait to hear from others.

Have fun and be safe...and please share your results. I know, if done safely, it takes time- but these forums are pateint.....and arent going anywhere.

I have got thousands of pictures....I am going to try to get a few personal examples of Intentional/accidental morphing that I myself have witnessed in my tanks over the years to share. It wont be easy digging through all those pics, but going to see what I can find to share.

Good luck!

[SIR PATRICK]

Originally Posted by that Fish Guy

I realize that you are trying to help people here and I commend you for it.

But I could see this doing more harm than good.


I know most people are honest and will not do this but right here you lay it all out just like the tv show.

Such extreme methods include-

Ice water bath
Hot water bath
Bleach dips
starvation
Dye dips
High light bleaching
Hyper/Hypo salinity
Eleveated levels of photosynthesis
Excessive oxygen exposure
Intentional Expulsion of zooxanthellae

Now people wanting to make a quick buck will go ahead and do this.

So just like the show you may be making things worse and we may see more $1,000 polyps now.


I know you have good intentions I am just looking at the big picture.

Hopefully I am wrong and it helps alot of reefers.

Ah- I see what you mean....I never looked at it from that angle....

Lets see....where to start....

You would be surprised how many people actually do know about these methods. About 12 years ago, all these were common practices, and many people doing it, unwittingly I am sure, shared what they were doing with the general public, not expecting the backlash from us hobbiests and enthusiests. They thought they were making cool polyps for us.....but really they were harming/killing coral, and selling morphed polyps with very poor survivability odds.

It all started very inoccently really. just some reefers trying to get some cooler polyps to share, not taking into consideration the big picture and impact of what they were doing. Selling polyps near death/on the verge of melting. Morphed polyps by these extreme methods have very poor survivability rates.

I wont be buying any $1000 polyps....ever....and for those that do, and get their hands on some of these "hypermorphed" polyps will have to learn a hard earned lesson when they melt....thats why I am sharing this information. yeah- it may increase the # of people trying to scam some quick bands, but will also teach some valuable lessons to the consumers.

I am hopping that anyone spending a chunk of change will do their research first, before buying a polyp with an insane price tag....."hypermorpher" are usually "one hit wonders" in the hobby, taking advantage of the current situation of comercialism of the hobby. They dont last long selling polyps for a ton of $$$ that melt. They are usually exposed rather quickly and people stop buying from them....as I said- sucker born every minute and someone born every 2 minutes to take advantage.

There are many high end coral sellers out there that are legit.....dont get me wrong....

Like I mentioned above, there are some serious vendors out there with top notch stuff, that get the best of the best maricultured polyps, or have mastered offering individual types of corals their best pristine conditions to look their best and survive.

Not all insane corals are a scam, and just to be clear- cornbred corals (and many other high end coral sellers) in my experience is legit as far as methods of husbandry. I lost count of how many cornbred peices I have seen first hand....but its still a zoa polyp....I can understand the prices on some of the LPS....but a single zoa polyp? Its a weed.....very pretty weed, but still a weed....any weed given long enough to survive will grow a flower if given a chance, but will you buy it for top dollar and plant it in your bluegrass front yard? Thats insane....

I am hoping the pro's overide any con's that may become of this thread, but you know me- Ive never been afraid to "rattle the cage"

[that Fish Guy]

Originally Posted by SIR PATRICK

On another forum, someone disagreed with me, and it was braught to my attention-

Alot of these new high end polyps are coming from mariculture, and I couldnt agree more!

Racks are placed in protected areas of the ocean, specifically for growing raised coral, clams and even sustainable food- fish.

Many times these racks are in sheltered lagoons, open deep oceans, tidal areas and shallows, all of which have very very different conditions.

Anyone notice all these hyper bright veitnamese based polyps? You know- the "green bay packers", "whammin watermellons" "Dragon eyes", "nuclear green dragon eyes"? All very common corals you can buy for $5-$10 for large frags....These super bright, sometimes slighly color variated (and highly advertised) are almost all maricultured....many times grown in the same areas of mariculture that those real nice maricultured (my favorite) SPS are grown.

These extra "special" morphs of these very very common polyps are maricultured in a slightly, and sometimes drastically, different locations, depths, and flow areas than normally collected in the wild, hence the vibrant differences in appearence.

For those of you unfamiliar with the most common of common veitnamese polps, do a search of "wild collected veitnamese polyps", then do a search of the names commonly given to these corals and add ultra, rare, hyper, ect to the beginnings of their names....you will quickly realize and see for yourself exactly what I mean...

Many areas of common mariculture occur in-

The solomon islands
Africa
Philippines
Marshal islands
Fiji
Japan
Palau

These different locations, depths, tides and availability (or lack of) have caused some really nice morphs of some very common polyps.....but watch out....they can/will go right back to their wild colors if their new habitat (your tank) doesnt match where it was maricultured at, and might look just like the common colected wild polyp it truely is.

I have found that maricultured polyps, especially the most vibrant and colorfull- or "different" polyps tend to keep their look in SPS type conditions.

Yeah,

What you are saying makes perfect sense.

I have read many articles online and seen pictures of stuff grown in the ocean.

I try to avoid Mariculture myself.

Especially Zoanthids and Acros.

Everytime I have ever gotten an Acro from the Ocean it Dies.

Some people complain about named corals but I like them.

If I buy say Rastas I know they will do well because they came from somebody's Tank and NOT the Ocean.

The Ocean is Totally Different from an Aquarium.

I think most people do not realize that.

But the named stuff that has been around for 10 Years Plus in the Hobby always does well for me.

I would never pay 1,000 for a Zoanthid (Aquacultured or Maricultured) doesn't matter.

But some people will and many people are not "In the Know."

[SIR PATRICK]

Another freind of mine, on another forum just braught up an interesting subject....

"Wish someone would bring back the good ole days. Where Corals look the same in your tank as they did in the pic. Where you could buy 5-10 polyps frags for $20.00."

I couldnt agree more.....unfortunately tank parameters differ, some stable, other fluctuate, these days, with all the new technology there are so many different lights and spectrums- all bringing out different colors. I am afraid the days of "what you see is what you get" are gone......unless your lighting and system are similar.

At least we can still get size, quantity and quality from these pics, but with all the technology these days WYSIWYG is very hard to replicate.....

Which brings me to the next subject, modern day-

Photography/cameras
lighting
editing
and all the other ways to sqeeze out every last option of making a polyp look desirable....

I will touch base on this soon....In the mean time though-

If anyone wishes to chime in on the subject- please do. Share your experiences, thoughts, ect....

[that Fish Guy]

Originally Posted by SIR PATRICK

Ive been around a while....

I have been around a while too but I guess you are more in the know than me.

I don't buy 1,000 corals so I guess I do not feel the need to keep up with that part of the Hobby. LOL.

[SIR PATRICK]

Originally Posted by that Fish Guy

Yeah,


Some people complain about names but I like it.

If I buy say Rastas I know they will do well because they came from somebody's Tank and NOT the Ocean.

The Ocean is Totally Different from Tank Life.

But the named stuff that has been around for 10 Years Plus in the Hobby always does well for me.

I too prefer an aquacultured coral, especially those that are locally grown, established, from another hobbiests tank. As far as I an concerned- each peice baught from a tank is one less peice taken out of the ocean. Its always hardiest of anything available.

I also enjoy names....or at least I used to...

I think it was around 2004- names started popping up and they were reletively easy to follow. With the craze that ensued years later it got out of hand and confussing.....I lost track of all the different names that have popped up over the past 6 years or so...so many names for the same polyp....but then again, what do you expect? Its a HUGE world and it will never be on the same page.

But- thats another subject entirely......Lets try to stay away from the name game, just for this thread. Things tend to go down hill quick I have witnessed....

All's I can say is Thank God For Modern Photography!!! I can snap a pic, and dont even have to type a description if I dont want to! Boom- instant understanding of what I would otherwise try to describe.

[that Fish Guy]

Originally Posted by SIR PATRICK

Ah- I see what you mean....I never looked at it from that angle....

Lets see....where to start....

You would be surprised how many people actually do know about these methods. About 12 years ago, all these were common practices, and many people doing it, unwittingly I am sure, shared what they were doing with the general public, not expecting the backlash from us hobbiests and enthusiests. They thought they were making cool polyps for us.....but really they were harming/killing coral, and selling morphed polyps with very poor survivability odds.

It all started very inoccently really. just some reefers trying to get some cooler polyps to share, not taking into consideration the big picture and impact of what they were doing. Selling polyps near death/on the verge of melting. Morphed polyps by these extreme methods have very poor survivability rates.

I wont be buying any $1000 polyps....ever....and for those that do, and get their hands on some of these "hypermorphed" polyps will have to learn a hard earned lesson when they melt....thats why I am sharing this information. yeah- it may increase the # of people trying to scam some quick bands, but will also teach some valuable lessons to the consumers.

I am hopping that anyone spending a chunk of change will do their research first, before buying a polyp with an insane price tag....."hypermorpher" are usually "one hit wonders" in the hobby, taking advantage of the current situation of comercialism of the hobby. They dont last long selling polyps for a ton of $$$ that melt. They are usually exposed rather quickly and people stop buying from them....as I said- sucker born every minute and someone born every 2 minutes to take advantage.

There are many high end coral sellers out there that are legit.....dont get me wrong....

Like I mentioned above, there are some serious vendors out there with top notch stuff, that get the best of the best maricultured polyps, or have mastered offering individual types of corals their best pristine conditions to look their best and survive.

Not all insane corals are a scam, and just to be clear- cornbred corals (and many other high end coral sellers) in my experience is legit as far as methods of husbandry. I lost count of how many cornbred peices I have seen first hand....but its still a zoa polyp....I can understand the prices on some of the LPS....but a single zoa polyp? Its a weed.....very pretty weed, but still a weed....any weed given long enough to survive will grow a flower if given a chance, but will you buy it for top dollar and plant it in your bluegrass front yard? Thats insane....

I am hoping the pro's overide any con's that may become of this thread, but you know me- Ive never been afraid to "rattle the cage"

Interesting.

I have never heard about any of this.

I just thought all the super expensive stuff was Photoshoped.

I hear about all the "Old Timers" talking about how it was back in the day.

- People were afraid to frag corals.
- Frag Swaps were at people's houses and everything was in bags.
- Back then you bought Colonies there was no such thing as a frag.
- etc.

But they never mentioned this.

I know Corals "Morph" but I didn't know people were "Experimenting" and trying to Force them to Morph on purpose.

I just thought all these Expensive Corals were all Photoshoped to get those Crazy Colors.

So yeah the first thing I thought was of that documentary I watched.

I figured the only people that knew these "Secrets" were the ones doing it and now the world knows.

But I can't be the only one that didn't know and I know there are people not as honest as myself.

So I felt they would take that knowledge and bring more $1,000 polyps to the Hobby.

Hopefully I am wrong.

We will have to wait and see.

[SIR PATRICK]

Originally Posted by that Fish Guy

I have been around a while too but I guess you are more in the know than me.

Maybe on this topic- thats why I am sharing.

Ive seen your tank, the longevity of your coral list, the health of your coral/polyps....and you are succesfull in the hobby and your endevors to spread captive grown corals....

You have seen my tanks....you are in the know more than me on many subject too.

[SIR PATRICK]

Till I touch base on modern day lighting and photography, or anyone else adds to the subject, please read this article from RB-

https://************.com/2016/01/23/...7192-416567013

And again...not saying all do it....but trust me when I say its a tool of the trade...

Just saying....

[MUCHO REEF]

Originally Posted by that Fish Guy

So I am guessing that you know somebody that does this?

How else would you know all these secrets?

A lot of reefers know this, they just choose not to share it.

I've been reefing 25 years and 23 years of exclusively growing zoanthids, palythoas, proto palythoas and mushrooms. I've owned and grown thousands. I posted a thread in this forum 8 years ago entitled " Bleaching - Intentional Premeditative Color Shifting. Why? ". You can search that title and read it. What Sir Patrick is conveying is true. I've seen it and inadvertently done it over 10 years ago. There are things I've discovered that I have never shared and will never share as it will be used exclusively to make exhorbinent amounts of money. I almost wish SP hadn't share it but I know he had good intentions. I even regretted posting my thread just days later. There are other ways to literally ( I don't want to say CREATE ) produced polyps from other polyps that look different. There's someone right here in this forum years ago who did it. I won't share his name but he can if he chooses to do so. It can even be done by happenstance without even trying to produce something different.

MUCHO REEF

[reefrobster]

Interesting topic, thanks for sharing.