In-wall 380gal tank - cut out options - Page 4

karimwassef · 12/02/2012, 01:42 PM

The paint I decided to use is from Sherwin Williams. It's called Pro Industrial Pre-Catalyzed Water-based Epoxy K46-150 Series. It's intended for industrial kitchens, hospital, schools. It's not a 2 part epoxy but since it's not intended to be in contact with the tank water, it should be ok to protect the area around it.

Lavoisier · 12/03/2012, 08:29 AM

I am with you on the time thing. I keep telling myself it will be all the sweeter when finally completed!!

I would recommend a polyurethane calk. (This one is specifically made for flooring but I do not think it is different from a roofing calk. http://www.tools4flooring.com/mer-kr...A#.ULy2sIPs5Jo) It can be found at any hardware store, often in the roofing section.

karimwassef · 12/12/2012, 08:58 PM

ok. decided to use "great stuff" polyester foam and then cut it back. Works for the big gaps. Then I applied GE 100% silicone over the seams.

karimwassef · 12/12/2012, 09:02 PM

Ok. The moment of truth ... cutting out the drywall. No turning back now.

I used a straight piece of wood screwed into the drywall (scrap side) and a jigsaw. Made an experimental cut in the middle first to get the hang of it. The jigsaw "drywall blade" made a nice clean cut. Hooked up my small shop vac to the jigsaw exhaust and had very little dust.

Covered it up with plastic sheet - went down to 30 F overnight in Texas and might even snow! Garage was painfully cold - added a space heater.

karimwassef · 12/12/2012, 09:04 PM

constructed the trim from several pieces, brads and wood glue. Then stained and cut.

I used one corner piece (3/4" x 3/4"), then a forward facing trim and another for the lip (horizontal bar). One more flat 3/4" piece allowed the forward facing trim to sit flush against the wall.

Here is the scrap end, but it shows the cross section

Here it is assembled into the frame. The trim actually allowed me another chance to make some level corrections to the drywall cut.

Corner pieces will come later.

karimwassef · 12/12/2012, 10:17 PM

It's here. Rented a u-haul and picked it up at the freight terminal. Came in on a 9' palette and 6' tall box. 950lbs... that's 50% heavier than I was expecting...

Also rented a manual crank material lift (1000lb capable).

too tall to fit in the garage so unpacked outside

One hour later and with 5 people... we're in!

karimwassef · 12/12/2012, 10:19 PM

Front and back view and ready for the first water stress test. The chandelier is casting the light pattern on the front view wall.

karimwassef · 12/12/2012, 10:24 PM

water test

temporary lighting

and full... 380gal

still need to add the corner squares and silicone the 1/8th inch gap between the frame and the tank. It's not much, but the garage can get pretty cold. It should be comparable to the silicone around the windows and doors.

karimwassef · 12/12/2012, 10:28 PM

Overall I'm pleased with the outcome. It's a nice fit and the stand is solid. I can confirm that the 1" foam underneath it doesn't compress much even fully loaded.

I also loaded the 150 gallon rubbermaid resevoir in the suspended platform and it was solid as well.

Once the corners and silicone are in, work begins on the sump and the surge.

woodnaquanut · 12/13/2012, 01:49 AM

Do you have plans to heat the garage?

karimwassef · 12/13/2012, 02:02 AM

Only a space heater. With 1000W in metal halides and 500W in pumps, I've usually had an overheating issue. With another 900W of heaters, I expect to keep it at 74F or so in the winter.

I have a 1/2hp chiller for the summer and installing a roof vent to keep cool in the summer. Texas summers are my biggest concern.

karimwassef · 12/13/2012, 10:36 AM

The space heater keeps the garage 20F warmer than the outside (small garage). At 30F outside, the garage should be 50F. The tank heating adds another ~2000W for 380gal.

karimwassef · 12/13/2012, 09:56 PM

Hmmm. There is a 1/4" gap between the frame and the glass. The silicone will fill it in but I am tempted to push the tank flush to the drywall. It weighs 950lbs empty... So that is a painful 1/4" correction.

Anyone else with an in-wall care to comment? Does it matter much?

woodnaquanut · 12/14/2012, 06:32 AM

Maybe I should have said do you have any plans to insulate the garage? That's a lot of water to cool in a hot garage! Have you considered extending the home HVAC into the garage?

RE: 1/4" gap...

If you do fill the gap, you might want to use caulk that matched the trim. Brown? It doesn't need to be fancy, fish safe, silicone.

How about applying a thin trim piece after the tank is set up and full. This could be scribed to the tank to account for any out of plumb or not exactly flat issues. After writing this I realized your trim won't allow this. Since you mentioned moving the tank to flush, perhaps you would consider changing the trim. If the part that was perpendicular to the tank was not 'fancy' it would be easy to scribe it to the tank. Apply this after the tank is all set and full of water

BTW I love your lighting system! Work light on step stool! Be careful, you don't want to be a 'Darwin award' winner.

fishgate · 12/14/2012, 06:41 AM

Mine just has a small gap probably the same as yours but it backs to an interior room.

karimwassef · 12/14/2012, 10:20 PM

I've added new garage door seals and foam at the corners. There is a small attic area between the garage ceiling and roof on the side away from te tank. There is little insulation there but I was planning on adding a solar powered venting fan in the summer.

Running the HVAC is an idea I've toyed with but I would need a duct A/C contractor since I am not sure where all my duct work is. I can see running the necessary ductwork in the little attic if there was a place to tap into it nearby.

I have three more cooling options: the first is the chiller which I have facing and very close to one of the garage doors in an attempt to keep the hot air as far as possible from the tank. Cutting a vent opening in the external stucco wall is intimidating. I wave a window in the garage but it's on the opposite side and the water lines would need to go to the ceiling and back down.

The second is the titanium cooling lines that I have buried 2 feet down in my back yard. It's about 160 feet of 3/4" tubing. I have no idea if it'll have much benefit but it's an experiment....

The third is a window A/C unit... More money, noise, ongoing cost... Not sure if it'll be very aesthetically pleasing from the outside either.

karimwassef · 12/14/2012, 10:23 PM

Darwin Award... Lol

The work lights are fastened to the pole. If the assembly tips off the ladder, it would fall to the ground, not the tank... Unless I literally pick the whole thing up and turn it feet up in the air.

karimwassef · 12/14/2012, 10:28 PM

Fishgate, thanks for the pics. The gap doesn't look so bad so I'll likely let it be with a silicone seal. With an 8' x 2' viewing window, I think the 1/4" gap will fade into the foreground.

woodnaquanut · 12/14/2012, 11:35 PM

Titanium cooling lines? You are holding out on us! That sounds neat. Also sounds expensive. You gonna have a backyard collider?

I'd love to hear more about your plans for this. Years ago there was a story in 'Sunset' magazine about cooling a house by burying large (4", 6" - I don't remember) PVC and circulating air thru. Sure would be a low energy AC.

RE: HVAC. Does your house heat/cool from vents in the floor or ceiling? What's behind the funny door to the left (as seen from garage) of the tank. Water heater or ??? If you do condition the garage be sure to insulate the garage doors. If the garage gets hot you are going to have a real hard time keeping the tank cool.

Just thought of a real bonus to HVAC to garage. When your SO finds out how much this is costing, you'll need a comfortable place to live!

karimwassef · 12/15/2012, 09:05 AM

I started a thread on the underground titanium lines but it vanished... It's not expensive since titanium tubing is now used in a lot of applications. I bought 200 ft for about $300. I used tube connectors and vinyl for the interfaces $100 and the rest is the sweat in digging the trench ($120 to rent a ditch witch).

No idea if it'll work but it's something I've wanted to try for a couple of decades since I first learned about geothermal cooling.

karimwassef · 12/15/2012, 09:15 AM

HVAC is from the ceilings. TX is hot 8 months of the year so the primary purpose of the heat pump is to cool.

The little closet door is access to the hot water heater. Thought of changing to an instant hot water heater but the electric versions are not very efficient and terribly expensive. The benefit is that I had a dedicated 100A line installed in case I ever do... That's now my dedicated tank power.

My wife is already unhappy with the tank concept. This is how it ended up in the garage in the first place. Making the garage more comfortable can only help. Lol

letsgrow34 · 12/23/2012, 05:26 PM

How is your progress coming. Sure its slow with the holidays but I have been patiently waiting for an update. ha

karimwassef · 12/29/2012, 02:13 PM

Sorry for the long delay. Family time before reef time, especially during the holidays. Ok... Progress...
Added the trim corners.

Assembled the 3/4" plywood sump 5' x 2' x 2' with wood glue and screws

Also added a 3/4" plywood floor to the base

Then installed the 2x250W metal halides (for now) and prime coated the base floor and sump outside

Then water resistant blue paint

Put down a 1/4" silicone 100% between the trim and tank face (still needs some cleanup on the wood). Use masking tape on the glass to keep it crisp.

Added a 2 mil Mylar back ($30 for a 4'x25' roll). Got 16' left... Material for more fun.

letsgrow34 · 12/29/2012, 10:34 PM

Your trim looks great. I really like the mylar backing too. I hadnt thought or seen that yet. I also havent seen anyone building wood sumps. What do you coat the inside with for this to hold water and not ruin the wood. Whatever it is has it been proven to hold up for a long period of time....seems scary to me.....Best of luck!

karimwassef · 12/30/2012, 12:50 AM

Epoxy. Plywood and epoxy tanks have been proven in for a decade. A correction on the sump dims: 6' x 2' x 2' ~ 180 gallons.

I've built a plywood tank before but it was much larger and used studs for support and fiberglass in the epoxy. This is my first plywood only - epoxy pour only build.

12/03/2012, 08:29 AM	#77
Lavoisier Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Overland Park, KS Posts: 1,030	I am with you on the time thing. I keep telling myself it will be all the sweeter when finally completed!! I would recommend a polyurethane calk. (This one is specifically made for flooring but I do not think it is different from a roofing calk. http://www.tools4flooring.com/mer-kr...A#.ULy2sIPs5Jo) It can be found at any hardware store, often in the roofing section. __________________ "...for it is not necessary that these hypotheses should be true, or even probably; but it is enough if they provide a calculus which fits the observations..."--Introduction (attributed to Andrew Osiander) to On the Revolutions of the Heavenly Sphere by Nicolaus Copernicus. Current Tank Info: 600g DT, 140g sump, 200g Cryptic, 90g Refugium, 3-400w MH, 2 Reeflo Barracudas, and 3 MP60s Last edited by Lavoisier; 12/03/2012 at 08:34 AM.

12/12/2012, 09:04 PM	#80
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	constructed the trim from several pieces, brads and wood glue. Then stained and cut. I used one corner piece (3/4" x 3/4"), then a forward facing trim and another for the lip (horizontal bar). One more flat 3/4" piece allowed the forward facing trim to sit flush against the wall. Here is the scrap end, but it shows the cross section Here it is assembled into the frame. The trim actually allowed me another chance to make some level corrections to the drywall cut. Corner pieces will come later. Last edited by karimwassef; 12/12/2012 at 09:35 PM.

12/14/2012, 06:41 AM	#90
fishgate Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Damascus, MD Posts: 3,340	Mine just has a small gap probably the same as yours but it backs to an interior room. __________________ 125RR in-wall, 40B Sump, CS180 BM Skimmer, ATI 4x80 watt, eheim 1262, custom wrap around rock wall, ReefKeeper Elite 120g in-wall, 40B Sump, PC 54wx4, Jabao DC-6000 (full siphon), future seahorse t Current Tank Info: 125g, 120g, 2x40b sumps, ATI 4x80 T5HO

12/29/2012, 02:13 PM	#98
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	Sorry for the long delay. Family time before reef time, especially during the holidays. Ok... Progress... Added the trim corners. Assembled the 3/4" plywood sump 5' x 2' x 2' with wood glue and screws Also added a 3/4" plywood floor to the base Then installed the 2x250W metal halides (for now) and prime coated the base floor and sump outside Then water resistant blue paint Put down a 1/4" silicone 100% between the trim and tank face (still needs some cleanup on the wood). Use masking tape on the glass to keep it crisp. Added a 2 mil Mylar back ($30 for a 4'x25' roll). Got 16' left... Material for more fun. Last edited by karimwassef; 12/29/2012 at 02:47 PM.

12/02/2012, 01:42 PM	#76
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	The paint I decided to use is from Sherwin Williams. It's called Pro Industrial Pre-Catalyzed Water-based Epoxy K46-150 Series. It's intended for industrial kitchens, hospital, schools. It's not a 2 part epoxy but since it's not intended to be in contact with the tank water, it should be ok to protect the area around it.

12/12/2012, 08:58 PM	#78
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	ok. decided to use "great stuff" polyester foam and then cut it back. Works for the big gaps. Then I applied GE 100% silicone over the seams.

12/12/2012, 09:02 PM	#79
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	Ok. The moment of truth ... cutting out the drywall. No turning back now. I used a straight piece of wood screwed into the drywall (scrap side) and a jigsaw. Made an experimental cut in the middle first to get the hang of it. The jigsaw "drywall blade" made a nice clean cut. Hooked up my small shop vac to the jigsaw exhaust and had very little dust. Covered it up with plastic sheet - went down to 30 F overnight in Texas and might even snow! Garage was painfully cold - added a space heater.

12/12/2012, 10:17 PM	#81
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	It's here. Rented a u-haul and picked it up at the freight terminal. Came in on a 9' palette and 6' tall box. 950lbs... that's 50% heavier than I was expecting... Also rented a manual crank material lift (1000lb capable). too tall to fit in the garage so unpacked outside One hour later and with 5 people... we're in!

12/12/2012, 10:19 PM	#82
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	Front and back view and ready for the first water stress test. The chandelier is casting the light pattern on the front view wall.

12/12/2012, 10:24 PM	#83
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	water test temporary lighting and full... 380gal still need to add the corner squares and silicone the 1/8th inch gap between the frame and the tank. It's not much, but the garage can get pretty cold. It should be comparable to the silicone around the windows and doors.

12/12/2012, 10:28 PM	#84
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	Overall I'm pleased with the outcome. It's a nice fit and the stand is solid. I can confirm that the 1" foam underneath it doesn't compress much even fully loaded. I also loaded the 150 gallon rubbermaid resevoir in the suspended platform and it was solid as well. Once the corners and silicone are in, work begins on the sump and the surge.

12/13/2012, 01:49 AM	#85
woodnaquanut Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 2,727	Do you have plans to heat the garage?

12/13/2012, 02:02 AM	#86
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	Only a space heater. With 1000W in metal halides and 500W in pumps, I've usually had an overheating issue. With another 900W of heaters, I expect to keep it at 74F or so in the winter. I have a 1/2hp chiller for the summer and installing a roof vent to keep cool in the summer. Texas summers are my biggest concern.

12/13/2012, 10:36 AM	#87
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	The space heater keeps the garage 20F warmer than the outside (small garage). At 30F outside, the garage should be 50F. The tank heating adds another ~2000W for 380gal.

12/13/2012, 09:56 PM	#88
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	Hmmm. There is a 1/4" gap between the frame and the glass. The silicone will fill it in but I am tempted to push the tank flush to the drywall. It weighs 950lbs empty... So that is a painful 1/4" correction. Anyone else with an in-wall care to comment? Does it matter much?

12/14/2012, 06:32 AM	#89
woodnaquanut Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 2,727	Maybe I should have said do you have any plans to insulate the garage? That's a lot of water to cool in a hot garage! Have you considered extending the home HVAC into the garage? RE: 1/4" gap... If you do fill the gap, you might want to use caulk that matched the trim. Brown? It doesn't need to be fancy, fish safe, silicone. How about applying a thin trim piece after the tank is set up and full. This could be scribed to the tank to account for any out of plumb or not exactly flat issues. After writing this I realized your trim won't allow this. Since you mentioned moving the tank to flush, perhaps you would consider changing the trim. If the part that was perpendicular to the tank was not 'fancy' it would be easy to scribe it to the tank. Apply this after the tank is all set and full of water BTW I love your lighting system! Work light on step stool! Be careful, you don't want to be a 'Darwin award' winner.

12/14/2012, 10:20 PM	#91
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	I've added new garage door seals and foam at the corners. There is a small attic area between the garage ceiling and roof on the side away from te tank. There is little insulation there but I was planning on adding a solar powered venting fan in the summer. Running the HVAC is an idea I've toyed with but I would need a duct A/C contractor since I am not sure where all my duct work is. I can see running the necessary ductwork in the little attic if there was a place to tap into it nearby. I have three more cooling options: the first is the chiller which I have facing and very close to one of the garage doors in an attempt to keep the hot air as far as possible from the tank. Cutting a vent opening in the external stucco wall is intimidating. I wave a window in the garage but it's on the opposite side and the water lines would need to go to the ceiling and back down. The second is the titanium cooling lines that I have buried 2 feet down in my back yard. It's about 160 feet of 3/4" tubing. I have no idea if it'll have much benefit but it's an experiment.... The third is a window A/C unit... More money, noise, ongoing cost... Not sure if it'll be very aesthetically pleasing from the outside either.

12/14/2012, 10:23 PM	#92
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	Darwin Award... Lol The work lights are fastened to the pole. If the assembly tips off the ladder, it would fall to the ground, not the tank... Unless I literally pick the whole thing up and turn it feet up in the air.

12/14/2012, 10:28 PM	#93
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	Fishgate, thanks for the pics. The gap doesn't look so bad so I'll likely let it be with a silicone seal. With an 8' x 2' viewing window, I think the 1/4" gap will fade into the foreground.

12/14/2012, 11:35 PM	#94
woodnaquanut Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 2,727	Titanium cooling lines? You are holding out on us! That sounds neat. Also sounds expensive. You gonna have a backyard collider? I'd love to hear more about your plans for this. Years ago there was a story in 'Sunset' magazine about cooling a house by burying large (4", 6" - I don't remember) PVC and circulating air thru. Sure would be a low energy AC. RE: HVAC. Does your house heat/cool from vents in the floor or ceiling? What's behind the funny door to the left (as seen from garage) of the tank. Water heater or ??? If you do condition the garage be sure to insulate the garage doors. If the garage gets hot you are going to have a real hard time keeping the tank cool. Just thought of a real bonus to HVAC to garage. When your SO finds out how much this is costing, you'll need a comfortable place to live!

12/15/2012, 09:05 AM	#95
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	I started a thread on the underground titanium lines but it vanished... It's not expensive since titanium tubing is now used in a lot of applications. I bought 200 ft for about $300. I used tube connectors and vinyl for the interfaces $100 and the rest is the sweat in digging the trench ($120 to rent a ditch witch). No idea if it'll work but it's something I've wanted to try for a couple of decades since I first learned about geothermal cooling.

12/15/2012, 09:15 AM	#96
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	HVAC is from the ceilings. TX is hot 8 months of the year so the primary purpose of the heat pump is to cool. The little closet door is access to the hot water heater. Thought of changing to an instant hot water heater but the electric versions are not very efficient and terribly expensive. The benefit is that I had a dedicated 100A line installed in case I ever do... That's now my dedicated tank power. My wife is already unhappy with the tank concept. This is how it ended up in the garage in the first place. Making the garage more comfortable can only help. Lol

12/23/2012, 05:26 PM	#97
letsgrow34 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 18	How is your progress coming. Sure its slow with the holidays but I have been patiently waiting for an update. ha

12/29/2012, 10:34 PM	#99
letsgrow34 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 18	Your trim looks great. I really like the mylar backing too. I hadnt thought or seen that yet. I also havent seen anyone building wood sumps. What do you coat the inside with for this to hold water and not ruin the wood. Whatever it is has it been proven to hold up for a long period of time....seems scary to me.....Best of luck!

12/30/2012, 12:50 AM	#100
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	Epoxy. Plywood and epoxy tanks have been proven in for a decade. A correction on the sump dims: 6' x 2' x 2' ~ 180 gallons. I've built a plywood tank before but it was much larger and used studs for support and fiberglass in the epoxy. This is my first plywood only - epoxy pour only build.