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Old 05/05/2015, 01:24 AM   #51
CoralsAddiction
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThRoewer View Post
S. gigantea is the natural host that actually increases the black. S. haddoni and mertensii also cause melanism in several clownfish and percula may readily accept them.
For whatever reason Socal stores hardly ever get Mertens anemones. They show up but do so very rarely here.


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Old 05/05/2015, 01:25 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by ThRoewer View Post
S. gigantea is the natural host that actually increases the black. S. haddoni and mertensii also cause melanism in several clownfish and percula may readily accept them.
I saw some nice small hadons at an lfs i might give one a try instead of the gig or sebae


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Old 05/05/2015, 01:26 AM   #53
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For whatever reason Socal stores hardly ever get Mertens anemones. They show up but do so very rarely here.
send me the list too lol


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Old 05/05/2015, 01:59 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by CoralsAddiction View Post
For whatever reason Socal stores hardly ever get Mertens anemones. They show up but do so very rarely here.
I think the red monster that Aquarium Concepts has in their display now might be a S. mertensii.

Haddoni and mertensii are the carpets that get the largest. Gigs, despite their name, stay smaller.


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Old 05/05/2015, 10:20 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by CoralsAddiction View Post
Gigantea, Haddoni, Malu, possibly long tentacle. The ones that cause the most color loss are Magnifica (Ritteri) and bubble tips.
I would personally skip adding an M. doreensis. Years ago I had one with my SI pair, and they lost darn near all of their black.
Started with this,



After being hosted by it for about 4 months (( I have a thread about this somewhere ))



Switched over to an S. haddoni and they started to regain it

Female,



Male




I lost the female about 2 years ago (( didn't put the top back on after a water change )), but still have the "male" --- which is a female now. She lost a decent amount of black while hosted by an E. quadricolor. Is now in my 210 with an S. haddoni, but hasn't been hosted yet.




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Old 05/05/2015, 11:34 AM   #56
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For whatever reason Socal stores hardly ever get Mertens anemones. They show up but do so very rarely here.
I think they're rare in general. I've had one and have seen two in the LFS. All were extremely small -- less than 5" -- but were clearly mertensii (all had bright red verrucae). The one I had was mis-IDed as a BTA but was badly damaged and never recovered.

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I think the red monster that Aquarium Concepts has in their display now might be a S. mertensii.
I think it's a haddoni. It doesn't have the red verrucae. I'm not sure if there are red merts. All of the ones I've seen -- in person and in photos -- are rather drab in color. The small ones have nice orange and red spots on the oral disc but my understanding is that they typically fade when the nem gets bigger.


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Old 05/05/2015, 11:47 AM   #57
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Here's my pair that I picked up on the same day as ThRoewer (thanks again for the tip, and it was nice to finally meet you in person!):



I am QTing them with CP and Prazi Pro. I have formalin but decided to forego a dip. They haven't exhibited any signs of disease or parasites, and though they are picky eaters, they appear to be acclimating nicely.

If all goes well, I'll have them move into their new home next week:




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Old 05/05/2015, 09:43 PM   #58
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Happy clowns

These two were a bit too sluggish, just hanging listless in their pot. So, to give them some excitement I put them in the tank with my gig:





Now they can hardly contain their excitement

I guess I need to get 3 more gigs for the other 3 pairs...


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File Type: jpg P5050214-1.jpg (52.3 KB, 119 views)
File Type: jpg P5050218-1.jpg (60.0 KB, 374 views)
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3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

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Old 05/05/2015, 09:53 PM   #59
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I am leaning towards a H. Crispa.
I went ahead and made a trade for a tan color Crispa today. It's adjusting to its new (bare bottom) home.



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Old 05/05/2015, 10:01 PM   #60
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Nice one.


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3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

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Old 05/05/2015, 10:16 PM   #61
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Nice one.
Thank you.


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Old 05/06/2015, 12:13 AM   #62
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These two were a bit too sluggish, just hanging listless in their pot. So, to give them some excitement I put them in the tank with my gig:


Now they can hardly contain their excitement
I was successful in that regard also tonight. Clowns found the nem.



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Old 05/06/2015, 09:05 PM   #63
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I can now confirm that H. Crispa (Sebae) Anemone also causes loss of black color. The left side of my male clown's dorsal fin has faded noticeably in less than 24hrs of moving into the anemone.


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Old 05/06/2015, 10:25 PM   #64
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I can now confirm that H. Crispa (Sebae) Anemone also causes loss of black color. The left side of my male clown's dorsal fin has faded noticeably in less than 24hrs of moving into the anemone.
I wouldn't judge so quickly. My pair 3s black got also a lot lighter after they went into my gigantea. I suppose it's because the anemone is still pretty white (though browning up quickly). I would wait for at least a month before making a judgment call.
Also, after what was found in the other Solomon percula thread I wouldn't rule out that some of these color changes could also be seasonal.


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3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

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Old 05/07/2015, 12:34 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by ThRoewer View Post
I wouldn't judge so quickly. My pair 3s black got also a lot lighter after they went into my gigantea. I suppose it's because the anemone is still pretty white (though browning up quickly). I would wait for at least a month before making a judgment call.
Also, after what was found in the other Solomon percula thread I wouldn't rule out that some of these color changes could also be seasonal.
I really hope that the clowns can hold their black in Crispa because (a) I found a healthy one and (b) don't want to deal with selling it and buying a gig or haddoni because the Crispa is so big I cannot accommodate another nem in the tank…well I probably could place a gig above the Crispa but not something I would like to deal with.


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Old 05/07/2015, 12:45 AM   #66
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I would personally skip adding an M. doreensis. Years ago I had one with my SI pair, and they lost darn near all of their black.




I have a thread about this somewhere
Found it. That was a quick and drastic color change by the way:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1685407



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Old 05/07/2015, 02:01 AM   #67
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This is pair 3 yesterday.




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Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio
3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

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Old 05/07/2015, 02:56 AM   #68
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I really hope that the clowns can hold their black in Crispa because (a) I found a healthy one and (b) don't want to deal with selling it and buying a gig or haddoni because the Crispa is so big I cannot accommodate another nem in the tank…well I probably could place a gig above the Crispa but not something I would like to deal with.
I've had ocellaris in a crispa for quite a while and they showed no darkening at all. I know at some point I got them a carpet (it was likely a haddoni and didn't last too long) and they got significantly darker, of course not like percula but still quite impressive.
Personally I won't take the risk and rather get more gigs.


The female of my pair 2 looks pretty much exactly like Toddrtrex's in this picture:




I'm fairly sure if she gets a gig she will color up a lot


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Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio
3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...
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Old 05/08/2015, 02:53 AM   #69
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Well, the female of pair 2 still has white stringy poo. So I started another round of PraziPro.
At least she is eating a bit better by now.

Pair 3 is eating a lot better now that they are in an anemone. No more hanging around sluggishly. Now it's all excitement.



Both of pair 4 were good eaters from the start.


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Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio
3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...
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Old 05/08/2015, 03:23 AM   #70
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I can now confirm that H. Crispa (Sebae) Anemone also causes loss of black color. The left side of my male clown's dorsal fin has faded noticeably in less than 24hrs of moving into the anemone.
Forgive me...

How is the anemone responsible for the loss of color of the clown?
Seriously?
Please explain the mechanism that causes the clown to lose color.

Has there even been a study that proved definitively that certain anemones can cause clowns to darken? If so, please post a link to that study.


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Old 05/08/2015, 03:44 AM   #71
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Yes, there have been studies done and it is a well known fact that certain clownfish get a melanistic coloring in combination with certain anemones (all the carpets for sure).
Other anemones, like H. magnifica causes normal A. percula for example to loose nearly all their black.

The exact mechanism hasn't been studied in detail yet but its effect is well enough documented. You will have a very hard time to find in the wild a onyx percula in a ritteri anemone. Those that live in these even loose most of the black border around the bands.

Get a copy of Anemone Fishes and their Host Sea Anemones by Fautin & Allen. It's in there.

BTW: the influence is also the other way around an the fish can influence the appearance of the anemone.


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Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio
3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...
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Old 05/08/2015, 09:44 AM   #72
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Forgive me...

How is the anemone responsible for the loss of color of the clown?
Seriously?
Please explain the mechanism that causes the clown to lose color.

Has there even been a study that proved definitively that certain anemones can cause clowns to darken? If so, please post a link to that study.
There are plenty of examples where wild onyx and regular true perculas lose their black coloration. Even some of the tank raised onyx clowns have experienced this in bubble tips and other anemones. What I can tell you is this: if you digged though this forum, youtube, books and other resources you will never find a wild Onyx or a wild black true percula clownfish in an anemone other than S. Gigantea. I can also ask you for studies that show that a host anemone does not bear any significance of A. Percula coloration. I doubt you will find such a conclusion.


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Old 05/08/2015, 09:55 AM   #73
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Forgive me...

How is the anemone responsible for the loss of color of the clown?
Seriously?
Please explain the mechanism that causes the clown to lose color.

Has there even been a study that proved definitively that certain anemones can cause clowns to darken? If so, please post a link to that study.
I've been fascinated by this phenomenon and went through hours of researching diving videos in the wild trying to find a black percula or onyx in H. Magnifica. Never had any luck. You can see an orange true percula in a Gigantea but not a black percula in a Magnifica. But even the orange true percs in S. Gigantea anemones have thicker black lines than the ones in H. Magnificas. I created a playlist on this subject on my youtube channel. Here are some of the videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Otva...FcodQA5Jzkfoci
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGN9...zkfoci&index=9
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gocd...kfoci&index=10



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Old 05/08/2015, 04:51 PM   #74
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Yes, there have been studies done and it is a well known fact that certain clownfish get a melanistic coloring in combination with certain anemones (all the carpets for sure).
Other anemones, like H. magnifica causes normal A. percula for example to loose nearly all their black.

The exact mechanism hasn't been studied in detail yet but its effect is well enough documented. You will have a very hard time to find in the wild a onyx percula in a ritteri anemone. Those that live in these even loose most of the black border around the bands.

Get a copy of Anemone Fishes and their Host Sea Anemones by Fautin & Allen. It's in there.

BTW: the influence is also the other way around an the fish can influence the appearance of the anemone.
I have the revised edition of Fautin and Allen's book, published in 1992.

Pg 49 melanism is mentioned under the section of color variation. The author's state the following:

"Another type of variation is melanism, (black pigmentation), which is somehow induced by the host anemone. This topic is discussed in more detail in Chapter 5, where several examples are illustrated."

Chapter 2 Pg 70 - A.chrysogaster:
Melanistic variation: "Specimens associated with S.mertensii are generally blackish except for three white bars"

Chapter 2 Pg 72 - A.chrysopterus:
Melanistic variation: "Fish living with S.mertensii generally have a blackish ground color, whereas males and juveniles that occupy H.crispa are brown. Only orange or brown juveniles are found with H.aurora."

Chapter 2 Pg 74 - A.clarkii
Melanistic variation: "Fish that live with S.mertensii are frequently black except for pale snout, white bars, and yellow or white tail."

Chapter 2 Pg 78 - A.frenatus:
Color features and size: "Adults with a single white head bar; females mainly blackish on sides with a red snout, breast, belly, and fins; males considerably smaller than females and lacking blackish coloration - being instead red overall; juveniles with two or three white bars. Maximum length about 140 mm.
Melanistic variation: "Only that related to sex as described above"

Chapter 2 page 90 - A.melanopus:
Color features and size: "Adults usually black on sides with a reddish snout, belly, dorsal fin, and tail, (sometimes pale yellow); pelvic and anal fins usually black; a single relatively broad white bar on head. Some individuals from the Coral Sea lack head bar; fish from the Fiji islands and southeastern Polynesia entirely red except for a white head bar; those from Solomon Islands, Vanuatu, and New Caledonia have reduced black patch on the side. Maximum length about 120 mm.
Melanistic variations: "Non except variation between "normal" dark color phase and red "Fijian" phase as noted above.

Chapter 2 pg 94 - A.ocellaris
Color features and size: "Normally bright orange with three white bars, the middle one with a forward-projecting bulge; bars have narrow black margins. Maximum length about 90 mm."
Melanistic variation: "A variety that is entirely black except for the white bars occurs in the vicinity of Darwin, Australia. Whether this melanism is correlated with a particular species of anemone is uncertain."

Chapter 2 Pg 98 - A.percula:
Color features and size:"Bright orange with three bars, the middle with forward projecting bulge; often bordered with black that varies in width. Maximum length is about 80mm"
Malanistic variation: "Limited melanism is evident in fish that live with anemones of the genus Stichodactyla; the margin around the white bars is deep black, and in some specimens, considerably expanded."

Chapter 2 Pg 102 - A.polymnus
Melanistic variation: "Fish associated with H.crispa are usually entirely dark except for the white bars and caudal fin margin and tannish snout."

Chapter 2 Pg 108 - A.sebae
Melanistic variation: "Some individuals are entirely dark brown to blackish on the body, (except for white bars), lacking yellow-orange color on the snout, breast, and belly. It is not known if the variation is associated with a particular anemone host."

It should be noted that S.haddoni is listed as the only host anemone species by the authors.

Chapter 2 Pg 112 - A.tricinctus
Melanistic variation: Fish associated with S.mertensii are entirely black or dark brown with with two or three white bars.

It should be noted that this is only time the authors are completely definitive in regards to a particular fish/anemone combination and color of the fish.

Chapter 5 Pg 140 - How anemone and fish can affect one another
2nd paragraph "In another instance of anemone affecting fish, the normally orange colored portions of the fish darken, so that the fish is black, rather than orange with white stripes. This type of melanism differs from that associated with size and certain isolated geographical populations, (see chapter 2). Only certain species of fish react this way, and only in certain species of actinians - for example, A.chrysopterus in S.mertensii and A.polymnus in H.crispa. Such changes may be relatively rapid so that an orange fish transferred to another anemone will darken within a matter of hours. Lightening, once removed from that host, generally occurs more slowly. The adaptive value of this reaction to either partner is unknown.



What I'm seeing here is alot of hypothesis and anecdotal evidence, not studies or definitive proof showing this does in fact happen and under what circumstances it occurs. I'm not knocking Drs Fautin and Allen, but when this was written, they were unsure if Black Ocellaris from Darwin were due to anemones or not. I think it's safe to say it's a genetic trait unrelated to anemones.

My personal experience with my Rod's Onyx was probably food related.
They were dark black for a long time both with and without a healthy H.magnifica anemone. Then for about a 6 moth period they went brown. I'm unsure what exactly caused the color shift. I started feeding whole foods such as raw uncooked shrimp chunks and scallop strips and they darkened back up to the black they had always been. They'd been with the same anemone during the entire process. Currently they are with a different H.magnifica anemone and are still just as black as before.



My point in this is that while there is a strong correlation between some anemones and some clowns with regard to melanism, it is not fully understood and has not been defined, nor has a cause of it been determined.
It should also be noted that not a single one of the listed anemone/fish combinations were with S.gigantea. All were either S.mertensii or even H.crispa which was claimed in this thread to cause clowns to loose color.


Right now, what we have is hypotheses and anecdotal reports.


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Old 05/08/2015, 05:08 PM   #75
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Hi i was wondering how much is a pair of wild caught Salomon island true percula going for these days?? Anyone? Thanks


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