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Unread 08/17/2016, 12:11 PM   #126
smatter
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One bottle of TLC bacteria en route. I will report back.


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Unread 08/17/2016, 12:25 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by smatter View Post
One bottle of TLC bacteria en route. I will report back.

Good for you.

One of the first axioms about reef aquariums from 40 years ago is still true today, "Only bad things happen fast, good things sometimes require patience". It ain't magic fairy dust, but it will work.


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Unread 08/17/2016, 12:45 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by sde1500 View Post
Fascinating read all around. Though seems like it may have been a bit more interesting before mods showed up haha.
I think this is a great thread. Unfortunately, there are certain requests that we have to make that may not make sense to the poster. They aren't something we made up today, there is always a story behind the requests. We just ask that people try to understand that. The limitations to links off-site are very few, but those that are in place will be enforced.


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Unread 08/17/2016, 12:46 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Paul B View Post
Brian that is of course correct. Everyone can have an opinion as long as they say it is an opinion and leave it at that. I also have many opinions and some of them were probably discovered to be wrong. I contributed almost nothing important to this thread for a reason. I realize my opinions, theories, practices and methods are controversial and my theories, practices, and methods are all just my opinion and not fact. So I keep most of them to myself. (unless someone PMs me) As I said, I am to old to argue.
Have a great day and please, everyone with an opinion on this keep posting no matter what your experience level.
I don't want to make this thread an argument or controversial, so I will leave it.
That's the thing, Paul. I look at the discussions as discussions of different points of view. They may be "arguments", but as long as the "arguers" are civil and respectful, everyone can learn something.

This is "Reef DISCUSSSION", after all


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Unread 08/17/2016, 01:17 PM   #130
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Brian that is of course correct. Everyone can have an opinion as long as they say it is an opinion and leave it at that. I also have many opinions and some of them were probably discovered to be wrong. I contributed almost nothing important to this thread for a reason. I realize my opinions, theories, practices and methods are controversial and my theories, practices, and methods are all just my opinion and not fact. So I keep most of them to myself. (unless someone PMs me) As I said, I am to old to argue.
Have a great day and please, everyone with an opinion on this keep posting no matter what your experience level.
I don't want to make this thread an argument or controversial, so I will leave it.
Paul,
I respectfully request that you continue to supply us with your knowledge, wit and humor. Censorship is not in my vocabulary. Perhaps Jack Nickolson said it best "They can't handle the truth".
Please continue to ramble along with me on this thread.
Patrick


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Unread 08/17/2016, 01:23 PM   #131
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I think this is a great thread. Unfortunately, there are certain requests that we have to make that may not make sense to the poster. They aren't something we made up today, there is always a story behind the requests. We just ask that people try to understand that. The limitations to links off-site are very few, but those that are in place will be enforced.
Oh not knocking the work you guys do at all. Wasn't sure what was edited out, if people were tossing around insults that would have been more interesting haha. Since it was just outside links I rescind my comment, those are boring


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Unread 08/17/2016, 01:32 PM   #132
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IMO, with a skimmer after the mud refugium, you would most likely remove the benificial effect. Zooplankton would adhere to bubbles from protein skimmer and would be removed from system.
So the zooplankton would be removed, but it coudl still serve as a place to accumulate detritus for pods and worms etc right? Serve as some manner of food reproduction or denitrator?


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Current Tank Info: 65 gallon mixed reef, Eshopps sump and HOB overflow, RO-110int skimmer, Reefbreeder 32" photons V1.
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Unread 08/17/2016, 01:45 PM   #133
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Paul,
I respectfully request that you continue to supply us with your knowledge, wit and humor. Censorship is not in my vocabulary. Perhaps Jack Nickolson said it best "They can't handle the truth".
Please continue to ramble along with me on this thread.
Patrick
You don't get it, do you?


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Unread 08/17/2016, 01:50 PM   #134
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Good for you.

One of the first axioms about reef aquariums from 40 years ago is still true today, "Only bad things happen fast, good things sometimes require patience". It ain't magic fairy dust, but it will work.
An axiom to live by for certain! This latest little tank I set up in my kitchen a few months ago has just not performed well. It's my fault. I keep screwing with it when I need to just let it get established. Foolishly I did a huge water change and decided to vacuum the sand while I was at it just because I had some extra saltwater around. Mistake. The three corals in there have only opened about half way in the past two weeks. I think it may have been the alk swing that did it. I'm back down in the 9s dkh now. Another issue is me constantly fiddling with my Nanobox light which is infinitely adjustable. A blessing and a curse. I'm going to leave that alone too as I think it is part of the problem. The oversized skimmer has also replaced by a Mame skimmer, a simple glass and limewood air stone skimmer.

Along with all the other things that are going on, I think the tank is just too clean. It's no wonder the corals aren't happy and my pod population has declined. I'm hoping this forthcoming bacterial inoculation coupled with my reduced intervention gets this little tank back on track. Thank you for the biological inspiration your writings have given me


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Unread 08/17/2016, 01:59 PM   #135
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So the zooplankton would be removed, but it coudl still serve as a place to accumulate detritus for pods and worms etc right? Serve as some manner of food reproduction or denitrator?

Zooplankton and pod & worm larvae are one in the same. Depending on flow dynamics, some zooplankton will be removed by skimmer and hopefully, some will go in display tank.


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Unread 08/17/2016, 02:00 PM   #136
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PS. Did you google Mark Van Der Wal?
Um why are people googling me? I stumbled on this thread just casually browsing RC, and see my name all of a sudden.


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Unread 08/17/2016, 02:05 PM   #137
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Um why are people googling me? I stumbled on this thread just casually browsing RC, and see my name all of a sudden.
In a discussion on NPS tanks, I found a thread that said you discontinued use of a skimmer on a SPS/NPS tank. After further investigation, I could find no further info.

Can you elaborate on skimmerless and NPS.

Did you relocate from Eorope? I am fairly certain that Mark Van Der Wal was from Germany.


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Unread 08/17/2016, 02:08 PM   #138
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In a discussion on NPS tanks, I found a thread that said you discontinued use of a skimmer on a SPS/NPS tank. After further investigation, we could find no further info.
Can you elaborate on skimmerless and NPS.
I've gone skimmerless a lot of times, but I haven't ever really kept a longterm NPS tank. I did do it on large SPS systems. What questions do you have?


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Unread 08/17/2016, 02:11 PM   #139
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I've gone skimmerless a lot of times, but I haven't ever really kept a longterm NPS tank. I did do it on large SPS systems. What questions do you have?
Considering that SPS & NPS require much food, some phytoplankton and some zooplankton, how were you able to keep up with NPS needs and not pollute the tank?


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Unread 08/17/2016, 02:24 PM   #140
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This was a profound take away I got from reading the link to write ups. As being fairy new, I was looking at bacterial one dimensionally, I was not aware that my typical set up and maintenance would be so limiting, and how dosing bacteria could help off set the natural cycle of bacteria populating that favors one type.

I need to reread to get a better grasp and then translate to possible changes to my tank, but for now, I am not chasing NO3 & PO4 numbers, but rather thinking more about an overall re-cycling ecosystem.

Thanks for this thread.
For nearly all of us reefers, we have no way of knowing which bacterial species are in our systems, which ones are dominant, etc. The best we can do is judge the health of the system ("is the nitrogen cycle completing resulting in low/untestable NO3? Is measurable PO4 low/acceptable? Is algae controlled?") as a whole and look at how others have set up and maintained their long lasting systems.

I suppose my contribution to this thread is to say that from my personal reef keeping experience (over 30 years) that I have never dosed a bottle of bacteria. Using the 'old-school' tried-and-tested Live Rock (originally from the ocean) and a shallow agagonite sandbed has worked very well for me. I also don't use an GAC, GFO, Bio-Pellets, Carbon dosing, skimmers or anything else (other than Kalkwaser for Ca and Alk and a few drops/wk of a commercial Iodine supplement to ensure sufficient levels for crustacean moltings) preferring to simply do weekly water changes along with detritus removal.

Of course, there are many ways to run a reef tank, but IMO the methodology used should be one where the system/animals have the proven potential to stay healthy for many, many years.



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Unread 08/17/2016, 02:27 PM   #141
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Hi Mark! Great to see you!


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Unread 08/17/2016, 03:07 PM   #142
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Good to see Mark popping into this thread!


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Unread 08/17/2016, 03:22 PM   #143
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Hey Brian!

Patrick,
Again, I never kept any non-photosynthetic corals long term. It's on my bucket list though. As far as SPS, I never implemented long term feeding of them either. While I have tinkered with coral foods here and there, ultimately I just usually resorted to feeding the fish and letting the corals fend for themselves.

I'm a non-stop tinkerer. I like trying methodologies, mixing and matching. I try not to preach one thing over the other, because I think you can find successful examples of any method. It all works. One is not better than the other in isolation. But one might be better suited for you than the other. I wrote a blog post a long time ago about avoiding reefkeeping demagogues. People who preach one thing or another. you'll have to google it. I know there some linking issues with said blog and RC. In regards to that I can just say I was once a mod here at RC, and have also contributed to RB. I have fond feelings for both sites and the people behind them.

Regarding skimmerless.... I have also had a 'thing' for what folks call natural tanks. But what is natural? Really, all systems are bacteria driven mostly. So let me rephrase, I have a thing for systems that are less technical and more simple. But I find personally to have the best results by transitioning to less equipment slowly. I definitely see the benefit of a skimmer in the beginning when coral mass is small compared to tank volume. As the tank matures and coral mass takes up more space, I find that I can pull the skimmer with less issues. I liken it to a planted freshwater tank. Once you get enough biomass and subsequent stability, there's more biology to replace technology. I do still like carbon and water changes quarterly to avoid buildup of elements, terpenoids, and chemical warfare.


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Unread 08/17/2016, 03:24 PM   #144
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For nearly all of us reefers, we have no way of knowing which bacterial species are in our systems, which ones are dominant, etc. The best we can do is judge the health of the system ("is the nitrogen cycle completing resulting in low/untestable NO3? Is measurable PO4 low/acceptable? Is algae controlled?") as a whole and look at how others have set up and maintained their long lasting systems.

I suppose my contribution to this thread is to say that from my personal reef keeping experience (over 30 years) that I have never dosed a bottle of bacteria. Using the 'old-school' tried-and-tested Live Rock (originally from the ocean) and a shallow agagonite sandbed has worked very well for me. I also don't use an GAC, GFO, Bio-Pellets, Carbon dosing, skimmers or anything else (other than Kalkwaser for Ca and Alk and a few drops/wk of a commercial Iodine supplement to ensure sufficient levels for crustacean moltings) preferring to simply do weekly water changes along with detritus removal.

Of course, there are many ways to run a reef tank, but IMO the methodology used should be one where the system/animals have the proven potential to stay healthy for many, many years.

Nano,

You and I have been doing similar methods for a long time. The biggest difference is I have several large systems. The economics to do weekly water changes becomes somewhat prohibitive. Aside from that, I would say our reef keeping methods are nearly identical.

With respect to knowing which bacteria types are in the water, I would point you to Ken Felderman. He has done extensive research on bacteria in our reef tanks.
I personnally don't need to know what types are in my tank. As a proactive method, I choose to use probiotics as an insurance policy. For me, it is much more economical than weekly water changes. Of course, both methods are compatiable.


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Last edited by Subsea; 08/17/2016 at 03:42 PM.
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Unread 08/17/2016, 03:38 PM   #145
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Hey Brian!

Patrick,
Again, I never kept any non-photosynthetic corals long term. It's on my bucket list though. As far as SPS, I never implemented long term feeding of them either. While I have tinkered with coral foods here and there, ultimately I just usually resorted to feeding the fish and letting the corals fend for themselves.

I'm a non-stop tinkerer. I like trying methodologies, mixing and matching. I try not to preach one thing over the other, because I think you can find successful examples of any method. It all works. One is not better than the other in isolation. But one might be better suited for you than the other. I wrote a blog post a long time ago about avoiding reefkeeping demagogues. People who preach one thing or another. you'll have to google it. I know there some linking issues with said blog and RC. In regards to that I can just say I was once a mod here at RC, and have also contributed to RB. I have fond feelings for both sites and the people behind them.

Regarding skimmerless.... I have also had a 'thing' for what folks call natural tanks. But what is natural? Really, all systems are bacteria driven mostly. So let me rephrase, I have a thing for systems that are less technical and more simple. But I find personally to have the best results by transitioning to less equipment slowly. I definitely see the benefit of a skimmer in the beginning when coral mass is small compared to tank volume. As the tank matures and coral mass takes up more space, I find that I can pull the skimmer with less issues. I liken it to a planted freshwater tank. Once you get enough biomass and subsequent stability, there's more biology to replace technology. I do still like carbon and water changes quarterly to avoid buildup of elements, terpenoids, and chemical warfare.
"Avoiding reef keeping demagogues", rings of much wisdom. Eric Borneman said it this way, "If someone tells you that there way is the only way, run away from them".
With respect to reef biomass, Ken Felderman had some interesting scientific papers published. Some of his findings have moved me to where my present day methods are:

Protein skimmers, at best, remove 30% of. DOC
Activated carbon removes up to 75% of DOC
Corals remove 30% of DOC.

IMO, if his test had been run on a more mature reef tank, it could easily have skewed the absorption of DOC by coral to 75%.

Thank you for your input.


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Unread 08/17/2016, 03:44 PM   #146
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Hi Mark,
Subsea is referring to a short write up you did on Reef Builders "Sundays, Coffee, and unconventional reef aquariums" in Sept of 2012 where you had posted a video that is no longer there on an old NPS tank that was owned by Minh where it was ran without a skimmer.


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Unread 08/17/2016, 03:45 PM   #147
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Nano,

You and I have been doing similar methods for a long time. The biggest difference is I have several large systems. The economics to do weekly water changes becomes somewhat prohibitive. Aside from that,mI would say our reef keeping methods are nearly identical.
Understood. If I had the voume of water that you have to maintain, I'd be going down a similar path to yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Subsea View Post
With respect to knowing which bacteria types are in the water, I would point you to Ken Felderman. He has done extensive research on bacteria in our reef tanks.
I personnally don't need to know what types are in my tank. As a proactive method, I choose to use probiotics as an insurance policy. For me, it is much more economical than weekly water changes. Of course, both methods are compatiable.
I think it's fair to say that we are all just looking for whichever bacteria will oblige and do the job at hand. If the tank has them in sufficient number, or if they need to be added regularly, doesn't really matter as long as they are present and doing their job

I've read Ken's work and it's very interesting. Delbeek/Sprung ('Reef Aquarium, Vol 3) also discuss the various bacterial types/species that could be in any of our tanks and even a bit regarding which species tend to dominate under which conditions. Facinating reads, for sure.


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Unread 08/17/2016, 05:00 PM   #148
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Hi Mark,
Subsea is referring to a short write up you did on Reef Builders "Sundays, Coffee, and unconventional reef aquariums" in Sept of 2012 where you had posted a video that is no longer there on an old NPS tank that was owned by Minh where it was ran without a skimmer.

The video can be found on his Vimeo channel:







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Unread 08/17/2016, 05:02 PM   #149
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Here's part two:



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Unread 08/17/2016, 05:09 PM   #150
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Looks like Minh posted on RC as well.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1494388



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