ICP test on Skimmerless and no Waterchanges reef aquarium

[acorral]

First let me clarify that even I don't use my skimmer and I don't do waterchanges on this specific reef tank I'm not here to advocate or support any of those practices... So please let's not turn this thread into a skimmer vs ATS, or lazy reefers that don't do WC, you get the point...

5 Years ago I setup this 400 gallon reef...
Year 2 I stopped doing water changes and setup and Algae Scrubber...
Year 3 I turned off my skimmer...

No GFO, no BioPellets, only 2 cups of vertex GAC changed monthly

I dose DIY 2 part additives on a constant basis based on Randy Holmes Farley recipe #1 to maintain MG, CA and Alk

The salt mix used was Instant Ocean

I dosed Iodine once in a while, just because... I had the bottle laying around...

The same for Iron Fumarate from the pharmacy, to give a boost to the algae scrubber.

Once every 1 or 2 months when I noticed slower grow rate I use NaCl free salt, aka Tropic Marine Pro Coral Minerals, and noticed improved growth, I guess it is additing something that gets depleted because after a few months it slows down again.

I do my top-off with 0 TDS water from an RODI unit, test the 0 TDS comming out constantly.

Two months ago I went into a problem with very high calcium and very low alk caused by some dosing pump malfunction... (read here http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2429502)

I came back from MACNA and decided to try the Triton.de ICP-OES testing service looking to find some useful information on what happens when you have Algae as the only nutrient export vehicle for almost 2 years, and at the same time you don't do waterchanges.

Before sending the water for testing I tested it and got these values:

- Salinity 36.5 ppt using a calibrated refractometer
- Alk at 8.5 dkh using Salifert test kit
- Calcium at 570 using ELOS test kit
- Mg at 1450 using ELOS test kit
- Phosphorous at 18 ppb that is 0.055 ppm PO4 according to this
- Silicon at 0.03 using Salifert test kit

Here are the results:






And got these summary warnings


I find very interesting those very high Iodine levels, assume it's because of Algae feeding and the sporadic iodine dosing I do... but is there nothing that consumes it?

Regarding the elements that are low (Potassium, Strontium, vanadium,Zinc and Manganessum) I am sure I can start adding those as part of some additives... not sure about the specific additives but it's matter of doing a little research... could use triton products... but they don't have presence where I live so that option does not apply...

Regarding the low salinity, what is happenning here? my refractometer reads 36.5, tested many times and with another refractometers also... why is NA low? the warings say to check my salinity or perhaps a ionic unbalance... how to fix it?

What I would like to get more understanding is on the elements that are high or very high, are they dangerous? could they be doing harm to something?
And ofcourse how lo lower them to acceptable levels... triton suggests buying their PURE salt mix and do water changes, the problem is that I don't have access to that product where I live... Triton doesn't sell it here yet...

Would love to hear/read your comments !!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, those charts from Triton are misleading in terms of limits of detection for some of the ions, and their setpoint is not the NSW value.

They cannot read copper as low as reported there, for example, and the set point is far, far above NSW values.

Consequently, I don't see that measurement as being all that useful unless you have a copper overdose.

Some of the other measurements probably are useful, however.

[acorral]

They explain that the set point on some elements showing 0.10 ug/l should read as 0.00 and the system puts that value because it can't handle the 0.00, not sure why though...

Also the set point is set by them, not nsw... Still some of the values I mentioned are way off compared to nsw...

Iodine, Boron, Bromine, Lithium, Nickel, Molybdenum... All of them are high... What to do about them? Do they really matter?

And also, help me understand the low sodium part...

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, but my point is that you cannot believe the 0.00 ppb copper. it could easily be 3.2 ppb copper by their stated limit of detection.

As to what to do about the elevated ones, that's a limitation of the Triton (no water change) method, since you cannot selectively reduce a random trace element.

I'm not sure exactly what method they use to test for iodine, so I can't be sure if it represents iodide and iodate in the water, or possibly iodine in whole organisms floating in the water. I wouldn't dose any, however.

The bromine is not a concern, but I wouldn't add any.

Same for boron. Don't use alkalinity additives with it.

The sodium means either they have an error, or you do in measuring salinity. Partly it is low because you have excessive calcium and magnesium (if they are accurate) which replaces it in the overall mix.

Lithium seems very high, but some mixes have tested high for lithium in the past. Nothing you can do about it except a water change.

[acorral]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

Yes, but my point is that you cannot believe the 0.00 ppb copper. it could easily be 3.2 ppb copper by their stated limit of detection.

As to what to do about the elevated ones, that's a limitation of the Triton (no water change) method, since you cannot selectively reduce a random trace element.

I'm not sure exactly what method they use to test for iodine, so I can't be sure if it represents iodide and iodate in the water, or possibly iodine in whole organisms floating in the water. I wouldn't dose any, however.

The bromine is not a concern, but I wouldn't add any.

Same for boron. Don't use alkalinity additives with it.

The sodium means either they have an error, or you do in measuring salinity. Partly it is low because you have excessive calcium and magnesium (if they are accurate) which replaces it in the overall mix.

Lithium seems very high, but some mixes have tested high for lithium in the past. Nothing you can do about it except a water change.

Thank you Randy

Triton provides an Error Correction Tables in which they suggest or instruct specific action for each element...

For many of them they instruct water changes, on some elements using Tropic Marine Pro Salt and on sole others using a specific salt mix they sell named PURE... The thing is I cannot buy it here in Mexico...

So the no water change part of their system is more like a marketing thing as I see it...

Regardin Bromine... I also tested a sample of RODI with IO salt and it has Bromine high also so I guess we have the culprit there...

On the Boron... Do you think food grade baking soda has it?

Also do you think my alk testing using salifert is being distorted by the high Boron contents?

Do having that high levels of Iodine may be toxic in some way?

I consider Calcium and Magnesium to be accurate, got similar results with elos tests... I will keep the alk dosing to maintain in 8.5 and let magnesium and calcium drop to normal levels... Both mag and ca are that high because some dosing pump failure so still correcting that.

Once having those two in control I guess my salinity would drop and correcting that with extra salt mix should correct sodium.

[Eyore]

The pro mineral is everything else after na and cl, but ca and so4 precipitate a little

mg b and br would indicate you are overdoing the pro mineral by a lot, ca too
however s conflicts with this unless more precipitates than i thought
i was expecting li to be 300 ugl or so, 6000 plus is nuts
i do not think you can say your salinity is 20% or so down from that sodium result, all other macros are high so sodium is displaced, again too much pro mineral imo

[acorral]

Originally Posted by Eyore

The pro mineral is everything else after na and cl, but ca and so4 precipitate a little

mg b and br would indicate you are overdoing the pro mineral by a lot, ca too
however s conflicts with this unless more precipitates than i thought
i was expecting li to be 300 ugl or so, 6000 plus is nuts
i do not think you can say your salinity is 20% or so down from that sodium result, all other macros are high so sodium is displaced, again too much pro mineral imo

What really spiked up my Ca and Mg was that the hose from my alk doser got disconnected from the doser and one whole month alk was dosed to the floor instead of dosed to the tank !!

Beautiful carbonate crystals everywhere...

So mg and ca where still being dosed but without alk to make calcification possible, ca spiked to 800 while having alk at 4, the same for mg, that happened a couple months ago...

I am fixing this just by maintaining alk at 8.5 and letting ca and mg go back to normal on consumption from the tank.

[Azmanjim]

Ahhhhhh!!!! It's not a "no water change method"!! It's a "no regular water change method". Jesus!!

[Eyore]

Originally Posted by acorral

What really spiked up my Ca and Mg was that the hose from my alk doser got disconnected from the doser and one whole month alk was dosed to the floor instead of dosed to the tank !!

Beautiful carbonate crystals everywhere...

So mg and ca where still being dosed but without alk to make calcification possible, ca spiked to 800 while having alk at 4, the same for mg, that happened a couple months ago...

I am fixing this just by maintaining alk at 8.5 and letting ca and mg go back to normal on consumption from the tank.

ok

i still say i am right for at least some if the mg, ca can be tweaked and some has to precipitate

b br are still only really explainable with too much trace, the lithium i am at a loss, never seen lithium so high (i do view a lot of these tests)

the correct ratio for pro mineral is 25g to 84 bicarb to 73.5 cacl2 2h2o. With this method in dependant magnesium dosing should be minimal and is best with magnesium chloride or a balanced mix of choride and sulphate as per nsw 20 chloride to 3 sulphate (not magnesium sulphate heptahydrate and magnesium chloride hexahydrate(i just dont have my working out to hand))

[Big E]

So the no water change part of their system is more like a marketing thing as I see it...

Of course it is............that's the whole basis of the system. Water changes are too much work or evil.

triton suggests buying their PURE salt mix and do water changes

And there it is.......and don't forget to boost up the low levels with their products they sell too.

Once you do all that send the water out again so they can charge you yet again to make sure everything is "good." I'm sure they'll let you know what other products of theirs you NEED.

And to think just doing water changes on a regular basis would keep levels balanced without fretting over numbers that no one knows matter or not.

I'm sure you can continue on what your doing with some minor adjusting as long as you're happy and your corals are thriving. That's the most important barometer.

[Eyore]

Originally Posted by Big E

Of course it is............that's the whole basis of the system. Water changes are too much work or evil.



And there it is.......and don't forget to boost up the low levels with their products they sell too.

Once you do all that send the water out again so they can charge you yet again to make sure everything is "good." I'm sure they'll let you know what other products of theirs you NEED.

And to think just doing water changes on a regular basis would keep levels balanced without fretting over numbers that no one knows matter or not.

I'm sure you can continue on what your doing with some minor adjusting as long as you're happy and your corals are thriving. That's the most important barometer.

lol

the thing is over here most cannot see this, some that can and still use often have the attitude of "there is more to life than money" and or are fascinated by the chemistry, which is fair enough.
I cant deny i am interested to see how many triton tanks are running happily i a few years time AND not had to use water chsnges to dilute out bad results

Anyhow
Triton pure- stops at li, rubidium and lower are not in the salt (at least in terms of placement (i dont know impurity). As the name suggests its supposed to be pure, it cant be, purer though maybe.
Personally i feel its a bit of a cop out not having these traces in if they are" good", the "unwanted" yes ok

fwiw most users here in the uk seem to use tmpr for this dilution, which i feel is kind of strange tbh, its the salt i use for water changes anyhow, and i avoid £35 or about 14 kg worth of salt to tell me when to use it

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

On the Boron... Do you think food grade baking soda has it?

I don't think so. It is an additive in things like Seachem Marine Buffer.

As to the iodine, without knowing what form it takes, it is hard to say, but if inorganic iodine really is that high, it is a concern, IMO. That is 22x the normal level.

FWIW, I dosed iodate for a while as an experiment, and it did not deplete as fast as I thought it would (based on iodide depletion). It seemed to brown out some corals. At the time the level was, IIRC, was about 0.2 ppm (200 ug/L) iodine equivalent. That is much lower than yours, although as I said, I do not know what forms yours is, and yours may just be from suspended phytoplankton or bacteria.

[acorral]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

On the Boron... Do you think food grade baking soda has it?

I don't think so. It is an additive in things like Seachem Marine Buffer.

As to the iodine, without knowing what form it takes, it is hard to say, but if inorganic iodine really is that high, it is a concern, IMO. That is 22x the normal level.

FWIW, I dosed iodate for a while as an experiment, and it did not deplete as fast as I thought it would (based on iodide depletion). It seemed to brown out some corals. At the time the level was, IIRC, was about 0.2 ppm (200 ug/L) iodine equivalent. That is much lower than yours, although as I said, I do not know what forms yours is, and yours may just be from suspended phytoplankton or bacteria.

Would testing iodine with salifert, seachem or redsea test kit help define what form that iodine is at?

[Eyore]

i have been looking at your results again

iodine i bet is transcription error, and your not high at all on this. Contact triton

as i said the pro mineral is to put in everything needed other than the na and cl from 2 part

it's a bit of a leap but lets assume the pro mineral corrects boron exsact. I use classic balling method and do 4-6% water change per fortnight and my icp was 4.5mgl, so its at least close.
you are near double on boron. Molybdenum too is near double

other trace elements are either below lod so really cant be comcidered, others i believe are depleted (barium for example)

bromide a lot of icp measure at 30-40ppm so the fact your at double this (rather than nsw) again ties

strontium is depleted much faster than nacl free will put it in (actually i have calculations for this somewhere) which would i believe show it should be much lower.

calcium sulphate precipitates regardless out of any nacl free, so cant rely on any "sign" from this

i wonder how much pro mineral you have been using?

[acorral]

I have just tested strontium with salifert test kit and it says to be higher than 40 ! The difference is huge !

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Originally Posted by acorral

I have just tested strontium with salifert test kit and it says to be higher than 40 ! The difference is huge !

Did you add a huge amount? If not, it won't be that high.

[hedgedrew]

Well. Wait one second. I'm sure bob stark at esv would love to see this result. I will send himto this thread cause this is the second tank I've seen with those lithium levels. That's 30x normal and is equal to 8to 10 ppms amd it should be trace. So your lithium is nuts but other reef crystal or io tests didn't have that but one esv test did. So what's going on here. Is the machine mistaking ions. In your case lithium instead of sodium. Go look at close they are on periodic table. Do you add lithium to that extent I trace elements?? And why is it close to the exact reading someone just got on an esv ro test.!!!! Something smells

[hedgedrew]

I'm glad someone started this thread. I'm sending a bunch of blind samples in to be tested.

[hedgedrew]

Acorral. How is your mag so high if you dose randys 2 part whichj is ca and alk?? 3 part solutions tend to be mg. Did you mean 2 part or 3 part or do you add mg also.???

[Dan_P]

To fully appreciate the results we need to know a bit about the ICP method, especially how the sample is prepared and how the mg/l are calculated from the measurement.

The ICP method involves an argon plasma colliding with tiny droplets of the sample which obliterates the sample to ionized atoms. The abundance of these ionized atoms are then measured.

The results could include elements accumulated by algae, bacteria, virus, and fungi and are not dissolved in the water. And the dissolved organic material will have associated elements either complexed or bonded to it. Find out if the sample is filtered to remove microorganisms or whether they have done some work to show the upper limit of elements that could be concentrated in microorganisms. Also, what sort of pool of elements might we expect form just the dissolved organic material? Has Triton tried to isolate the organics and look for elements just in the typical 1-10 ppm of DOM found in our aquaria?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Originally Posted by Dan_P

To fully appreciate the results we need to know a bit about the ICP method, especially how the sample is prepared and how the mg/l are calculated from the measurement.

The ICP method involves an argon plasma colliding with tiny droplets of the sample which obliterates the sample to ionized atoms. The abundance of these ionized atoms are then measured.

The results could include elements accumulated by algae, bacteria, virus, and fungi and are not dissolved in the water. And the dissolved organic material will have associated elements either complexed or bonded to it. Find out if the sample is filtered to remove microorganisms or whether they have done some work to show the upper limit of elements that could be concentrated in microorganisms. Also, what sort of pool of elements might we expect form just the dissolved organic material? Has Triton tried to isolate the organics and look for elements just in the typical 1-10 ppm of DOM found in our aquaria?

According to the folks that run this ICP, whole organisms such as phytoplankton do not make it into the plasma. It is not filtered but removed in some sort of cyclone. When I've tested my water with an ICP, I sometimes tested both filtered and unfiltered to try to understand the difference, but that is not done here.

The organics are not separated, but at least from the data I have seen from several folks, the total phosphorus and a separate measurement of inorganic phosphate are in pretty good agreement, so there is not a huge amount of total organic matter in many of these tests.

That said, I expect all or nearly all of the metals such as copper to be bound to organics, as it is in natural seawater.

I also have a working hypothesis that there is substantial organoiodine in some tanks that are not skimmed and not water changed (like this one), but that remains to be established.

[trueblackpercula]

this is amazing I will try and send a sample out as well.