Dosing Nitrate to reduce Phosphate

[herring_fish]

Originally Posted by tmz

It does release nutrients as it degrades from hydrolysis and microbial activity occurring in a cascade with each digestion reducing the nutrient value of the remaining detritus , ultimately leaving refractory mineralized remnants which are of little consequence.
....

I agree. This is a little anecdotal observation of mine from the past. I was talking about a jaubert style sand bed with open plenum bottom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by herring_fish
....I lowered the front of the bed so that it looked better against the front glass. Critters are suppose to inhabit the top, aerobic zone but nothing gets passed the two screens into the anaerobic zone and the stagnant zones.

I wanted to see into the plenum so before I installed anything, I encased a plasticized magnet in epoxy and placed it on the bottom piece of glass in the tank. The stand that I had, allowed me to look up through the bottom of the tank. In about a month a layer of detritus formed on the bottom glass. In a few months, I put another magnet up to the first one and was able to slowly and carefully drag it around through the sediment. I could see that it was very uniform at about 1/4 inch thick. I only did this one or two more times over 8 years or so. It wasn't too exciting.


When I tore the tank down, I was very careful, like a paleontologist. When I got through the sand beds I looked at the bottom sediment and there was that same depth of 1/4 inch of detritus that formed in the first few months.

It appeared to me that something processed this stuff. The screens are there to keep out critters and there weren't any dead skeletons, shells or any other forms of remains. This led me to think that the last vestiges of detritus must have been falling to the bottom slowly and bacteria was (...well not eating it but) processing it away. The ATS must have been the eventual vehicle for export of detritus byproducts that come from different stages of decomposition.

In nature, on dry land, fecal excrement is not the last stage of nutrient breakdown. Otherwise, we would be buried in it. It is broken down whether it is in the soil or sitting on the sidewalk. There is always something that lives off of what that last organism left behind. To some degree, this can be done inside of a closed reef system, although removal is far better where possible!!! Never the less, there is a complex food chain going up the latter before food enters a fish's gut. Likewise, there is a complex and little understood chain of organisms that process that food after it leaves the gut. "Dust to dust" and all that?....

.....I would think that whatever is deposited at the bottom was pretty close to inert....

[chema]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

Herring fish, I love those detailed specs for the ats.. If I had the space and the wife's blessing (which would be never) I'd set one up!
Ok. Update:
Since my last nutrient tests and posted results, I have kept my dose exactly the same. Today's results gave me an n of 3ppm and p of somewhere around .02. Maybe less but definitely not more.
I will reduce the cano3 in my mix very slightly because there seems to be a slight trend upwards for n.
I'd say that for me, with all in one pellets, a solid skimmer but no macro algae (at the moment- I will probably add some when my display tank comes back) as well as a little nitrate added to my system, I have conquered (or controlled) my phosphate problem!

Therefore, would you say that, in your tank, a concentration of around 3 ppm nitrates is optimal to keep phosphates at less than 0,1 ppm?

[reefmutt]

I'm not sure it is optimal, but it is definitely working. I would think that wether it was a little higher or lower, I would have the same effect on p.
Recently, I changed my formula but tried to keep the overall carb addition. I'm using a mix of 100ml rice vinegar (4% acetic acid, 10 ml vodka and 10 drops of honey with 5 scoops of cano3) mixed into an additional 400 ml ro water. I still dose 35 ml twice daily. I did this with the assumption that I would be fostering multiple strains of bacteria and the assumption that multiple strains is somehow better for the system...... (Comments welcome!)
This new formula has pretty much kept the status quo, but n seems to have dropped closer to 2 ppm and p staying at close to .02. After multiple tests getting the same p result in my Elos test kit and comparing it to my ulr checker, I feel that .02 and not lower is more accurate than what I said before (.02 or lower)
Since I'm blabbing, now, I'll also mention that for the first month or so of additions, my skimmer was producing more skimmate than it has for the last couple of weeks. Recently, I've noticed a drop in accumulation. Nutrient levels are staying stable, however.
When I finally get my display up, I do plan to add some remote sand beds and cheato. This will certainly require a modification of my recipe, but as it stands, at the moment, levels are very stable.

[discos]

I have read this very interesting topic for a number of times and it's my turn to share my experience with you. My tank is SPS only, medium load, 220g/850lt and is filtered with skimmer, chaeto and biopellets.

I used to use gfo in a reactor for all the years before, and for the last 4 months I am using the 250ml biopellets (Most probably you will find small the quantity but personally I consider biopellets too potent for the quantity the companies suggest and so far my results are great). From the moment the biopellets kicks in, I start controlling po4 with nitrate dose. I am using kno3 but I also have nano3 just in case.

When I start dosing i had around 2 ppm no3 and po4 virtually 0. The first month I was dosing 1ppm no3 per week in 2 doses by hand. I noticed in the end a slight rise of po4 around 0,03 and no3 1. After the first month i increased the dose to 1,5ppm per week and the results are so far show a stability in the 0,03 region. My nitrate two days after the dosing of 0,5ppm are 0,5ppm and then I dose and going to 1ppm. Tests are salifert nitrate and hanna checker for po4.

One of the things I first noticed was the slight increased skimmer activity the next day I was was dosing. The way the aquarium is working now, normally I should have 0 no3, something I do not wish but it's the biopellets signature, so my target is 0,5-1 no3 and po4 at 0,01 to 0,02 max. I am in the process of getting there, I hope things to remain under control and in the future. I could play with a bigger dose but I want to do things slowly, to understand the micro changes better.

Such a great subject, we are involved with an amazing hobby and I hope more people to share their experience with us. In the months to come I will report the process of this technique.

[Fraxinus]

Very interesting. I've given this a try. I have a Reefer 250 w about 200L of water in the system. It's a very new system: 6 months old. No skimmer; I run a duplex refugium in the skimmer compartment. At the time I started dosing sodium nitrate I was having a red cyano problem. 0 nitrates and .05 - .15 PO4 (w/Hanna ULR & math conversion in ApexFusion). I've been dosing with ormet's formula of 40 grams soduim nitrate in 500mL water for my stock solution. I add 1 ml of this solution daily which equates to .25ppm daily dosage to my system. Right before my first dose, my PO4 reading was .12. Two days later it was .02. Four weeks later and my PO4 readings always stay between .02 & .05. My red cyano is slowly going away. My nitrate reading with red sea test kit is .25 - .5 i think. Truthfully, I struggle to read the results. But, I can at least tell there is detectable N now, before there was not. My true red dragon acro and monti cap color has improved quite noticeably. Most other corals in my tank had pretty good color before. I'm going to start increasing my dosage slowly over time to see how it goes; I'll likely never let it get above 2ppm. I'll post back in the future with updates.

[tmz]

I dose a very small amount of sodium nitrate from time to time ,1tsp to 650 gallons every week or so. I also carbon dose ( vadka and vinegar) NO3 is held under 1ppm ,mostly around 0.2ppm per Salifert test, with PO4 in the 0.02ppm to 0.04ppm range per hanah 713.

[ReefKeeper64]

Originally Posted by tmz

I dose a very small amount of sodium nitrate from time to time ,1tsp to 650 gallons every week or so. I also carbon dose ( vadka and vinegar) NO3 is held under 1ppm ,mostly around 0.2ppm per Salifert test, with PO4 in the 0.02ppm to 0.04ppm range per hanah 713.

I was just going through this thread and recalled you mentioned that you were using Aspartic acid as your nitrate source back in 2013. Are you dosing both aspartic acid and sodium nitrate nowadays? I'm interested in your perspective.


Aspartic acid contains nitrogen and organic carbon in the form of an essential acidic ammino acid that living things incuding corals use . I account for the carbon part by reducing the vodka dose to off set the extra carbon. I use L aspartic acid from I herb .com,an online health food vendor ,ca $6 for 250 grams.
It only takes 4 grams 2x per week for 650 gallons to get N where I want it 0.5 to 1ppm . I'm still observing it since I started it just 2 weeks ago. Sps coral color seems to have gotten richer and lps seem fuller but I may just be seeing what I want to see.

[tmz]

No, I don't. It didn't seem to do as much as I hoped at the time but I might try it again some day,perhaps along with some other amminos.

[ReefKeeper64]

That is what I was thinking but I was curious. Thanks for responding.

[JustAClownFish]

Originally Posted by swcc

instead of dosing nitrate do things that would normally increase nitrate such as not cleaning out detritus with water changes or leaving filter sock in place longer.

I thought like that as well for a while but I’ve come to find that doing it this way will contaminate the tank leading to more problems. Uneaten food will not only increase nitrate. Dosing nitrate is a much cleaner way to increase NO3 and will result in the reduction of phosphates over time.