Reef Central Online Community

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > Do It Yourself
Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

User Tag List

Reply
Thread Tools
Unread 02/17/2017, 06:19 PM   #26
d0ughb0y
Registered Member
 
d0ughb0y's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: sf bay area
Posts: 5,165
you can make anything work. the question is, is it practical?

you will need to prefill the first tank to the desired level. then prime the XXfeet of siphon tubing (you can't just suck with your mouth on the other end). when first tank starts getting siphoned, you need to pump in water to keep the level. etc etc.


d0ughb0y is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02/17/2017, 09:21 PM   #27
BlueRoofTang
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 186
I agree with VGT above.

You just have to make sure both ends don't come out of the water. Many aquarium overflow setups work like the sketch that was posted. They have a box hanging in the tank and a box on the outside, with a U pipe up over the edge of the tank. This is a way to make an overflow setup for a tank that's not drilled.

The problem is that it will eventually become a problem. For what you're doing, it may not ever be a problem, as far as overflowing. When a setup like this is used on a tank, to run a sump below, you will eventually get small bubbles accumulating in the top of the U pipe. This reduces flow, increasingly, until there's more water being pumped up into the tank than is draining back to the sump. THis is why many of these setups will put a small port on the top of the U pipe, where you can add an aqualifter to keep air from staying in there. ....which then becomes another problem...the aqualifter is another item to fail, clog, etc.

If you're just balancing tanks that are on the same level, why not just drill each of them below water level and put a pipe between, which doesn't ever go above that elevation? Then no air will get in it.

For reference...you can look up some youtube videos on a "water level" which uses a section of hose. If you put water in a length of flexible hose, and hold each end upwards, the level of water in each side will be level. You can use this to set elevation of items across a gravel parking lot if you have a hose long enough. By using this same concept, tying two tanks together, with tanks being a low point, you could accomplish your goal without any air problems at all, since air goes up and would come out the ends, into the tank.


BlueRoofTang is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02/17/2017, 09:24 PM   #28
BlueRoofTang
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 186
BTW, I have done similarly when filling two garbage cans with RO water. Once I get a few inches of water in each can, I can pull a siphon from one, and hold my thumb over it once it fills the hose. Put the end down into the second can, and it's done... any water put in one can will level out in the other can, so you fill two cans at the same time.


BlueRoofTang is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02/17/2017, 11:31 PM   #29
Meshmez
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 1,030
I'm not sure I understand how the water gets from the 2 display tanks to the sump they share.... do you pump water out of each display, into the sump, and then back to each display?


Meshmez is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02/18/2017, 09:14 AM   #30
SFish
Registered Member
 
SFish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,062
What your making is a water bridge

https://youtu.be/1tmsHa5spqc

http://www.bio-elite.co.za/waterbridge.htm

https://youtu.be/u--gZdv_wN8



Last edited by SFish; 02/18/2017 at 09:36 AM.
SFish is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02/18/2017, 09:32 AM   #31
SFish
Registered Member
 
SFish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,062
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgyvr View Post
Provided each tank has a proper overflow and each has its own return line there is NO reason the water levels should not be fixed in both display tanks..
The overflow sets the water height.. Only the sump will fluctuate via evaporation..

I see NO need for this stagnant water tube..
If it's done right the water won't be stagnant. He would have flow through the tube effectively creating one big system. I've seen this done before. Water flows from one tank to the other making a big loop. The real question is can you prime that length of pipe.



Last edited by SFish; 02/18/2017 at 10:00 AM.
SFish is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02/18/2017, 04:10 PM   #32
VGT
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueRoofTang View Post
BTW, I have done similarly when filling two garbage cans with RO water. Once I get a few inches of water in each can, I can pull a siphon from one, and hold my thumb over it once it fills the hose. Put the end down into the second can, and it's done... any water put in one can will level out in the other can, so you fill two cans at the same time.
Thats pretty clever, wish I had thought of that when I was filling a bunch of brute cans.


VGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02/18/2017, 08:07 PM   #33
WLachnit
Registered Member
 
WLachnit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 1,722
Quote:
Originally Posted by vgt View Post
thats pretty clever, wish i had thought of that when i was filling a bunch of brute cans.
+1


__________________
(1) 300g mixed reef (Starfire DT) + 100g Sump
(2) 100g Softie tank (Starfire DT)
My Build Thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263472
WLachnit is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02/19/2017, 10:04 AM   #34
Theokie
Registered Member
 
Theokie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Near Edmonton Ab
Posts: 166
I use a slow speed masterflex pump with a dual head setup.... it exchanges about 150 gallons a week between two of my setups just to keep their chemistries similar. One pipe pulls from one tank the other pipe pulls from the other. I made sure the tubing is the same length for each run, so that the head pressure is balanced.

I originally did the DOS trick on a small temporary tank, having it pull water out and then pump water back in, but its a noisy pump and the duty cycle is no where near as good as a Masterflex.

If you do go with a siphon and a U tube, I would get a decent industrial peristaltic pump to periodically pump out any air bubbles from the apex of the tubing to maintain prime.


Theokie is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02/19/2017, 10:30 AM   #35
ca1ore
Grizzled & Cynical
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Stamford, CT
Posts: 17,319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevorino View Post
Does this still work reliably on that scale?
As I think you now suspect, the answer is no. While conceptually it would work, it likely wouldn't 'stay' working. The problem with most U tubes is that they lose siphon over time due to collections of air bubbles. A 50 foot U tube, with slow flow due to small level differences would be plagued with siphon loss problems.


__________________
Simon

Got back into the hobby ..... planned to keep it simple ..... yeah, right ..... clearly I need a new plan! Pet peeve: anemones host clowns; clowns do not host anemones!

Current Tank Info: 450 Reef; 120 refugium; 60 Frag Tank, 30 Introduction tank; multiple QTs
ca1ore is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02/20/2017, 09:02 AM   #36
Joe Lydon
Registered Member
 
Joe Lydon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevorino View Post
thanks for reading the post :P
No need to read the linked post. If you're joining two tanks, you drill, and plumb them.

Using a 50' siphon tube, or water bridge, as stated earlier, is making a mountain, out of a molehill. While also adding risk factor.

Just sayin'


Joe Lydon is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02/20/2017, 09:11 AM   #37
krazyk148
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 121
Things to consider:
Make sure the pvc tubing is clear so that any air bubbles can be noticed quickly.
If the water is moving fast enough through the tube smaller air pockets can be pushed through.
An air lifter/power head w/ air input on a timer (once a week) can remove any additional air

As long as you periodically check the water bridge/siphon tube it should never lose its siphon. The worst thing you could do is make it out of white or black pvc and then have to guess when air is being trapped. Ive used one for 10 years with plenty of power outages and never lost a siphon. Like anything else its not fail safe and does require the occasional check.



Last edited by krazyk148; 02/20/2017 at 09:19 AM.
krazyk148 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02/20/2017, 04:34 PM   #38
herring_fish
Crazy Designer
 
herring_fish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Winston-Salem NC, USA
Posts: 1,029
I did something only slightly similar between a 130 gallon DT tank and a 55 gallon remote sump in the garage. I only pumped a couple of gallons per day through a ¼ inch line. From there, I pumped the water into a higher vestal with a peristaltic pump and it returned to the DT via gravity. I liked the results even though I had to check for clogs about once a month.

Now I am installing a ½ inch version going from my 180 to a 30G and may only have 20 gallons going through per day. I did drill this time because I could.

I don’t remember if your installation has the tubing running above the water line the entire distance like in the drawing or if it dips down in-between the tanks. I run my tubing almost straight down after going over the edge and coming back up just before the other edge. That way there is less weight being lifted and therefore it would take more air to break the siphon.

Of course, if something can go wrong, it might. Do you have a controller to tell you if the water level goes out of whack? If not, you could build an alarm pretty cheaply. Just a water sensor/alarm from home depot hung in the tank just above the water line would do the job.


__________________
Restarting 180G Very Mixed Reef Tank, Custom Cabinet, Kessil AP700, 4 x T5’s , 2 X 60" XHO LED's, Dump Bucket Style ATS, bag of carbon, no mechanical filtration allows food to stay in suspension.

Current Tank Info: In Garage: 130G Refugium, 30G sump for remote ATO, 55G RO/DI Reservoir, additional EB8. Finishing: Custom Nelson style KalkRx, Custom Cole Palmer style CalRx with PT CO2 Carbon Reactor Controller, 2 Axis Robot Feeder for Garage Plankton Farm.
herring_fish is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08/16/2017, 03:08 PM   #39
krazyk148
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 121
For anyone still interested in making a waterbridge, I've found that polycarbonate tubing is extremely cheap compared to acrylic or clear pvc tubing and can be found in long lengths.


krazyk148 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08/16/2017, 06:40 PM   #40
herring_fish
Crazy Designer
 
herring_fish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Winston-Salem NC, USA
Posts: 1,029
Update?

So did you do what you where thinking about or did you drop the idea?


__________________
Restarting 180G Very Mixed Reef Tank, Custom Cabinet, Kessil AP700, 4 x T5’s , 2 X 60" XHO LED's, Dump Bucket Style ATS, bag of carbon, no mechanical filtration allows food to stay in suspension.

Current Tank Info: In Garage: 130G Refugium, 30G sump for remote ATO, 55G RO/DI Reservoir, additional EB8. Finishing: Custom Nelson style KalkRx, Custom Cole Palmer style CalRx with PT CO2 Carbon Reactor Controller, 2 Axis Robot Feeder for Garage Plankton Farm.
herring_fish is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08/16/2017, 09:54 PM   #41
krazyk148
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 121
Is that to me? haha I'm building it now. Couldnt finish the overflow/waterbridge until my tank was mostly done. A 3 inch, 6 foot long clear tube is $57.. which should be big enough for the flow im looking for and is a pretty good price. Ill take some pics once its done

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000OMHHY6/ref=biss_dp_t_asn


krazyk148 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08/17/2017, 06:34 AM   #42
der_wille_zur_macht
Team RC Member
 
der_wille_zur_macht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NY
Posts: 17,749
Yes, in theory it will work. But in practice there will be lots of challenges. If the water level in the tanks is already very close to being dialed thanks to your pump tuning, that means the siphon has very very little water to move. A siphon with very slow flow is subject to air accumulating over time (microbubbles, etc) which basically means it will eventually break. You can run a vacuum pump on the siphon, connected to the highest point (where air will naturally collect) but that's also not a surefire way to keep the siphon alive.

People have trouble keeping 1" siphon u tubes alive when they are only inches long and flowing hundreds of gph. You are talking dozens of feet long and a few percent of that flow. I just don't see this being reliable, and when something like this goes wrong it's usually a pretty big deal.

What you are trying to do is essentially the same as all the people asking about putting two sumps on one display tank. The best approach is to have one single container as your lowest point, then pump up from there and overflow back down to it. You can design any spaghetti mess of multiple systems with different flow rates and overflows and whatever, as long as there is a single lowest tank acting as the master sump it'll all balance. You're describing a single central tank and pumps to balance. If that central tank could be the lowest of the three, this would be a much simpler problem to solve.

I am totally 100% right there with those of you who are saying you love to prove naysayers wrong, but sometimes the alternate method is just plain not a good idea even if it technically works.


__________________
Inconveniencing marine life since 1992

"It is my personal belief that reef aquaria should be thriving communities of biodiversity, representative of their wild counterparts, and not merely collections of pretty specimens growing on tidy clean rock shelves covered in purple coralline algae." (Eric Borneman)
der_wille_zur_macht is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08/17/2017, 06:37 AM   #43
der_wille_zur_macht
Team RC Member
 
der_wille_zur_macht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NY
Posts: 17,749
I just realized the thread is old and there is a second page which I had not read when I typed that.

Water bridges meant to be on display with strong flow through them strike me as a slightly different challenge than a u tube meant to operate as a balancing siphon. I don't think the bridge idea is as unworkable since it is usually done with deliberate design vs just a super long u tube.


__________________
Inconveniencing marine life since 1992

"It is my personal belief that reef aquaria should be thriving communities of biodiversity, representative of their wild counterparts, and not merely collections of pretty specimens growing on tidy clean rock shelves covered in purple coralline algae." (Eric Borneman)
der_wille_zur_macht is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08/17/2017, 10:01 AM   #44
herring_fish
Crazy Designer
 
herring_fish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Winston-Salem NC, USA
Posts: 1,029
If you are going 50 feet with 2 3/4 inch tubing and it is all above the tank water line, then the weight of the water is more than 130 pounds? This doesn't mean that it will not work or work badly but just keep in mind that you have a reservoir of 15 or 16 gallons sitting there like a surge device. If it lets go then you have to make sure that your system can handle it.


__________________
Restarting 180G Very Mixed Reef Tank, Custom Cabinet, Kessil AP700, 4 x T5’s , 2 X 60" XHO LED's, Dump Bucket Style ATS, bag of carbon, no mechanical filtration allows food to stay in suspension.

Current Tank Info: In Garage: 130G Refugium, 30G sump for remote ATO, 55G RO/DI Reservoir, additional EB8. Finishing: Custom Nelson style KalkRx, Custom Cole Palmer style CalRx with PT CO2 Carbon Reactor Controller, 2 Axis Robot Feeder for Garage Plankton Farm.
herring_fish is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08/17/2017, 09:36 PM   #45
krazyk148
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 121
yeah im doing a 6ft run with two elbows. His notion seemed much harder to accomplish haha


krazyk148 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/03/2018, 08:03 PM   #46
krazyk148
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 121
getting ready to test it..


Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG-4330.jpg (51.1 KB, 15 views)
krazyk148 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2024 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright ©1999-2022
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.