Batch of bad salt, foreign objects in salt -- 1.026 = 5.8 dKH

[Mr.Fishtank]

Originally Posted by BB215

Here's my reply from info@aquaforest.eu

Hello,

Thank you for your e-mail and information.

I am sure that salt with Mg 1500 could not go out from our factory.

We are active at many forums and also in Aquaforest Group at Facebook - users are showing their tanks and corals look amazing with using Aquaforest products.

LOL. Really AF. With all of us on this thread having the same problems.Your going to tell us that the salt is fine and you wouldn't ship out bad batches.

It really ticks me off that you don't take blame for you F up's. I will not purchase anymore of your products. Even my LFS discontinued selling your products because they said that too many of their customers were complaining that things were going wrong after they started using Aquaforest products. Good luck with business!

[2dawghouse]

I liked their products and raved to several club members about their products. But this batch of salt is definitely subpar for the level of quality I have been receiving before. I agree it's not a coincidence that several people have come forward telling of QC issues with their salt. And I would like to know why my bucket of salt arrived in block form, not in powder form. And I'm certain it has something to do with the water looking dirty.

[Yonp11]

Honestly, if you can order from Amazon, I'd advise you to do that instead. If you open up the bucket and it doesn't mix to the QC certificate, just tell Amazon you got a defective batch and you'd like a refund or an exchange, and you'll even provide photo evidence if needed. This will ping the distributor, who I'm sure will tell AF they are getting an increase in complaints in product quality.

It seems by the lack of AF response to the complaints in this thread, along with the customer service email reply posted by BB215, AF would rather ignore the problem or assume its a user error.

[plyle02]

I am here to help, but when it escalates beyond my support capabilities, I have to allow AF to decide on how things are to be handled. I have had no issues at all using the Probiotic Salt. I do not have the increased mag, nor do I have other shifting parameters, but the complaints I am seeing seem to be related to AF Reef Salt. I apologize for any of your frustrations, I have interacted with the Co-Owner and Debora, who are with the team in Poland. They are very fair and are excellent aquarists too, to think they don't care is a tad harsh! Cheers and happy reefing

[Martin Kuhn]

Hmmm... reading this is like a "Deja vu" for me.

Understanding everybody who is disappointed here, i would anyhow suggest to look for further clarification before everybody claims the manufacturer for delivering poor quality.
Give the AF guys a fair chance.

- at which exact salinity should the water have "too much Mg". Are you really sure this is at the salinity level AF is posting their values? including the Q report of the batch? Are you really sure that your measurement kits work correct and that you measure correctly?
(too high salinity too high Ca/Alk/Mg values !)

- shouldn't we do a X-Check of what was measured and stated to be out of specs with another, trusted source?
From my side i offer to check a sample "that is thought to be out of spec", fully indepentently.
For my salt measurements from ACalc i own quite reliable "measuring stuff"
a) calibrated Mettler-Toledo weigh + calibrated temp.measurement unit + TM Aeromter
b) Testkits for CA/Alk/Mg from Peter Gilbers which are the most trusted kits in Germany at the moment, checked for corrections factors with Multi-reference
however... somebody needs to send me a sample of the salt to germany....PM

units with arrived in "block form" obiously should not be part of of this.
Anyhow: the packaging might get damaged during transport without any fault from the manufacturers side, besides it would be a good idea to improve the packaging quality then ;

[2dawghouse]

Originally Posted by Martin Kuhn

Hmmm... reading this is like a "Deja vu" for me.

Understanding everybody who is disappointed here, i would anyhow suggest to look for further clarification before everybody claims the manufacturer for delivering poor quality.
Give the AF guys a fair chance.

- at which exact salinity should the water have "too much Mg". Are you really sure this is at the salinity level AF is posting their values? including the Q report of the batch? Are you really sure that your measurement kits work correct and that you measure correctly?
(too high salinity too high Ca/Alk/Mg values !)

- shouldn't we do a X-Check of what was measured and stated to be out of specs with another, trusted source?
From my side i offer to check a sample "that is thought to be out of spec", fully indepentently.
For my salt measurements from ACalc i own quite reliable "measuring stuff"
a) calibrated Mettler-Toledo weigh + calibrated temp.measurement unit + TM Aeromter
b) Testkits for CA/Alk/Mg from Peter Gilbers which are the most trusted kits in Germany at the moment, checked for corrections factors with Multi-reference
however... somebody needs to send me a sample of the salt to germany....PM

units with arrived in "block form" obiously should not be part of of this.
Anyhow: the packaging might get damaged during transport without any fault from the manufacturers side, besides it would be a good idea to improve the packaging quality then ;

Im not to worried about the numbers per se...I can manipulate the mixture to match what my tank is currently reading. I am more worried about my salt being contaminated and hardening up. I am also going to try an experiment at home and see if maybe the salt was exposed to humidity which may have caused it to solidify due to the probiotic nature of the salt.

[plyle02]

Originally Posted by 2dawghouse

Im not to worried about the numbers per se...I can manipulate the mixture to match what my tank is currently reading. I am more worried about my salt being contaminated and hardening up. I am also going to try an experiment at home and see if maybe the salt was exposed to humidity which may have caused it to solidify due to the probiotic nature of the salt.

Hello,
From my understanding, binders are not used. For this reason, it is imperative that the salt is tied off and the lid on the bucket is re-sealed completely, as it will harden. I had a bucket towards the middle/ end of it's use do this, the reason was that I did not re-seal the bag or the bucket properly. I have since become very aware of this and the issue has never happened again. On another site, many who ordered from a specific online retailer had the same issue with the NEW salt arriving this way. The communication I received stated the salt is still ok to use, I used it to completion with no negative impacts on my reef. The only issue was that it did not mix as well as normal. Regards,

[dz6t]

I have three buckets of Reef Salt turned into hard rock in their SEALED containers and stored in the house in 6 month. AF (actually his boss) simply told me to go pound sand.
So these salt can't be stored in their seal container for 6 month? I wish I knew that before I bought them. I never have this kind of problem with any other brand of salt in the past 12 years.

[Martin Kuhn]

Originally Posted by dz6t

I have three buckets of Reef Salt turned into hard rock in their SEALED containers and stored in the house in 6 month. AF (actually his boss) simply told me to go pound sand.
So these salt can't be stored in their seal container for 6 month? I wish I knew that before I bought them. I never have this kind of problem with any other brand of salt in the past 12 years.

Isn't there something like a shelf life stamp on the container?
i can hardly imagine that shelf life of such a product is as short.

What do you mean with "simply told me to go pound sand" ?

===========
also, one thing i fogot to write the first time: Of course it is absolutely NOT OK if some "pieces of whatever" (eg used grinding paper ?) are within an (unopened) salt bucket.

you wrote: "Additionally... I found what looks like used sandpaper in my mix"
Q: was this within the sealed part /bag in the bucket ? Just mixed in, so that you couldn't see it once you used the first amount of salt?

or was it just lying in the bucket and not within the sealed part ?

[GoVols]

Aquaforest Please Respond,

After further research and trying to learn...

If I'm correct your "Salt Mixes" ARE NOT (NaCl free salt) salt mixes.

Meaning: With out NaCl "Sodium chloride" it's not sea salt.

NaCl free salt mixes are made for the consumer to add the "Sodium chloride" while mixing the salt.

Is this a correct?

Before new water is added to a tank it must have "Sodium chloride".

Is this correct?

So, Component 1+ 2+ 3+ would make a great choice to be used with all brands of salt mixes!

Is this correct?

If I'm not correct with any part of this post, please explain so I can learn.

[Martin Kuhn]

Originally Posted by GoVols

Aquaforest Please Respond,

After further research and trying to learn...

If I'm correct your "Salt Mixes" ARE NOT (NaCl free salt) salt mixes.

Meaning: With out NaCl "Sodium chloride" it's not sea salt.

NaCl free salt mixes are made for the consumer to add the "Sodium chloride" while mixing the salt.

Is this a correct?

Before new water is added to a tank it must have "Sodium chloride".

Is this correct?

So, Component 1+ 2+ 3+ would make a great choice to be used with all brands of salt mixes!

Is this correct?

If I'm not correct with any part of this post, please explain so I can learn.

i got a bit puzzled by what you write

a) sea salt mixes: are "added to freshwater" and "generate seawater with a certain salinity" including macro & trace elements.
Target is to make your water "just like seawater" (normal mixes) or "at a bit elevated Ca/Alk/Mg/trace-Element level" (reef mixtures).
(Exact mixtures differ from brand to brand and type to type)

b) Balling salts or liquid stock solutions of Balling salts
these ones "raise your level" of ca Alk and also Mg (some types only)
AF 1+ and 2+ eg "raise Ca and Alk".
they are NOT sea salt mixes ! you US guys call them "2 part's"

c) "NaCl free salt"
this is a dry salt mixture (or available also as stock solution / liquid mix, eg in 3+) containing "several trace elements"most of it being "Mg salt".
It is called NaCl free because "no pure NaCl is in the mix of other salts"

The exact mix is unknown to me.
This is used to raise Mg and other trace element levels as your SPS/LPS "consume it". It is in no way a "sea salt mix" like under a)

[dz6t]

Originally Posted by Martin Kuhn

Isn't there something like a shelf life stamp on the container?
i can hardly imagine that shelf life of such a product is as short.

What do you mean with "simply told me to go pound sand" ?

===========
also, one thing i fogot to write the first time: Of course it is absolutely NOT OK if some "pieces of whatever" (eg used grinding paper ?) are within an (unopened) salt bucket.

you wrote: "Additionally... I found what looks like used sandpaper in my mix"
Q: was this within the sealed part /bag in the bucket ? Just mixed in, so that you couldn't see it once you used the first amount of salt?

or was it just lying in the bucket and not within the sealed part ?

There is no shelf life stamp on any buckets.
They said that they were not going to do anything about it.
Also I was told to use the rocked (harden) salt despite I told them it did not dissolve completely. Also, they said the salt was OK to use if it did not turn BLUE.
No idea why the salt would turn blue.

[dz6t]

I am talking about the Reef Salt, not the probio salt.

[2dawghouse]

Originally Posted by dz6t

There is no shelf life stamp on any buckets.
They said that they were not going to do anything about it.
Also I was told to use the rocked (harden) salt despite I told them it did not dissolve completely. Also, they said the salt was OK to use if it did not turn BLUE.
No idea why the salt would turn blue.

Same here!!!! I did my experiment and the salt had a blue hue to it as well the salt in my bucket is slightly blue. The salt in my bucket and experiment will not dissolve completely. It leaves a residual in the bucket and my water is cloudy and dirty. This was an unopened bucket till I opened it.

[2dawghouse]

I'm dumping this bucket. There is no way in hell I'm putting this in my tank

[GoVols]

Martin,

1) Is AF "Reef Salt Mix" (NaCl free salt mix) or not?

2) Will Component 1+ 2+ 3+ stabilize out with any salt brand or do you have to use "AF salt mixes" for all 3 parts to work out evenly?

Yes, We are 2 part guys. (lol) Thanks to Randy Holmes-Farley

But it's really 2 part + Magnesium, making it a different 3 part than Balling. We just call it 2 part.

I'm looking forward to your answers to my questions.

Regards, GoVols

[Rakie]

Originally Posted by Martin Kuhn

also, one thing i fogot to write the first time: Of course it is absolutely NOT OK if some "pieces of whatever" (eg used grinding paper ?) are within an (unopened) salt bucket.

you wrote: "Additionally... I found what looks like used sandpaper in my mix"
Q: was this within the sealed part /bag in the bucket ? Just mixed in, so that you couldn't see it once you used the first amount of salt?

or was it just lying in the bucket and not within the sealed part ?

It was deep in the bag -- I found it as I was mixing my second batch, it came up with a cup of salt sitting *just* at the top. if I had dug just a little less or more deep it would have stayed buried.

There's possibly more in there.

[dz6t]

Originally Posted by plyle02

Hello,
From my understanding, binders are not used. For this reason, it is imperative that the salt is tied off and the lid on the bucket is re-sealed completely, as it will harden. I had a bucket towards the middle/ end of it's use do this, the reason was that I did not re-seal the bag or the bucket properly. I have since become very aware of this and the issue has never happened again. On another site, many who ordered from a specific online retailer had the same issue with the NEW salt arriving this way. The communication I received stated the salt is still ok to use, I used it to completion with no negative impacts on my reef. The only issue was that it did not mix as well as normal. Regards,

So it is an known issue with salt in sealed containers can harden then.

This is unacceptable and should be considered a faulty product.

I hope AquaForest can address this issue without simply ignoring it.

When the salt does not dissolved completely, it won't give the right composition of sea water. It is most likely precipitation of calcium and magnesium carbonate or other carbonate.

[GoVols]

Originally Posted by Martin Kuhn

Hmmm... reading this is like a "Deja vu" for me.

Understanding everybody who is disappointed here, i would anyhow suggest to look for further clarification before everybody claims the manufacturer for delivering poor quality.
Give the AF guys a fair chance.

- at which exact salinity should the water have "too much Mg". Are you really sure this is at the salinity level AF is posting their values? including the Q report of the batch? Are you really sure that your measurement kits work correct and that you measure correctly?
(too high salinity too high Ca/Alk/Mg values !)

- shouldn't we do a X-Check of what was measured and stated to be out of specs with another, trusted source?
From my side i offer to check a sample "that is thought to be out of spec", fully indepentently.
For my salt measurements from ACalc i own quite reliable "measuring stuff"
a) calibrated Mettler-Toledo weigh + calibrated temp.measurement unit + TM Aeromter
b) Testkits for CA/Alk/Mg from Peter Gilbers which are the most trusted kits in Germany at the moment, checked for corrections factors with Multi-reference
however... somebody needs to send me a sample of the salt to germany....PM

units with arrived in "block form" obiously should not be part of of this.
Anyhow: the packaging might get damaged during transport without any fault from the manufacturers side, besides it would be a good idea to improve the packaging quality then ;

So... Kind of like saying WE and are test kits are good for Measuring SG and the "big 3" daily in our display reefs, but... US and are kits are garbage in measuring SG and the "Big 3" while mixing from one batch to another batch. Geezzzzz

[GoVols]

Originally Posted by GoVols

So... Kind of like saying WE and are test kits are good for Measuring SG and the "big 3" daily in our display reefs, but... US and are kits are garbage in measuring SG and the "Big 3" while mixing from one batch to another batch. Geezzzzz

Oh Yeah, I forgot. "Shhh" look at AF's Coral Farm...

[Potatohead]

Originally Posted by GoVols

So... Kind of like saying WE and are test kits are good for Measuring SG and the "big 3" daily in our display reefs, but... US and are kits are garbage in measuring SG and the "Big 3" while mixing from one batch to another batch. Geezzzzz

It's well known that hobby test kits are not ultra accurate. The testing AF does on batches IS ultra accurate. That's their point.

[Martin Kuhn]

Originally Posted by Rakie

It was deep in the bag -- I found it as I was mixing my second batch, it came up with a cup of salt sitting *just* at the top. if I had dug just a little less or more deep it would have stayed buried.

There's possibly more in there.

This of course is definately NOT what it should be like.
@AF guys potentially reading this: So here you have some job to do. Improving the situation would be a good ideas. Checking first how this could happen, and letting us here know how it could. how will you avoid this in future? This would be my measures if i'd be responsible for the company.
good news here is :Sometimes issues like this showed up that they later on even improved trust levels of customers (nobody is perfect, but we should learn from our errors)

[Martin Kuhn]

Originally Posted by GoVols

So... Kind of like saying WE and are test kits are good for Measuring SG and the "big 3" daily in our display reefs, but... US and are kits are garbage in measuring SG and the "Big 3" while mixing from one batch to another batch. Geezzzzz

I did not say that i don't trust your measurements. I just asked and offered to do a 2x check before blaming anybody.

I've been around in reef forums in Europe for quite a while now. I had SEVERAL cases where it pointed out that values taken for serious definately have been the wrong one.
Just some examples:
- Measurement tools for "spec. gravity" thought to ones for "(normal) density/gravity)
- Aerometers have been read wrong, "from above the water surface"
- No temperature measurement whilst measuring with tools that need this (Aerometers, Hydrometers, conductivity sensors). just the reading of "SG" or "density" allone do not tell you the salinity !
- SG values read from a refrak instead of using the psu scale which should be used
- Aerometers used inside tank for measuring
- Measurement tools used showed up to show wrong values
- Measurement errors, or test kits used wrong
- test kits used showed up to be scrap, gebnerating wrong results
- test kits (Ca,Alk,Mg,NO3,PO4) used have never or not recently been
- Ca/ALk/Mg values of salt mixes stated without telling how much the salinity was, AND/OR the salinity value is not to be trusted (see above)
checken with reference solutions. AND/Or values measured have not been corrected with the measured correction factors
and and and ... the complete list is even longer.
Do you want more ?

[Martin Kuhn]

Originally Posted by GoVols

Martin,

1) Is AF "Reef Salt Mix" (NaCl free salt mix) or not?

2) Will Component 1+ 2+ 3+ stabilize out with any salt brand or do you have to use "AF salt mixes" for all 3 parts to work out evenly?

Yes, We are 2 part guys. (lol) Thanks to Randy Holmes-Farley

But it's really 2 part + Magnesium, making it a different 3 part than Balling. We just call it 2 part.

I'm looking forward to your answers to my questions.

Regards, GoVols

1.) No. Definately not.
2.) Of course you can use it with all salt mix brands and sub types
It adapts your Ca and Alk levels because of your corals and other consumptions of your tank . Also it adds traces.

Take a look into AFs quite informative instructions (good job done here by AF!). You will find out the following
1+ CaCl2 x2H2O mixed in ROI
2+ MgCl2 x6H2O mixed in ROI
3+ NaCl free salt mixture mixed in ROI (Mg + other traces, not only Mg !)

for 1+2+ concentrations are in about "the same ratio" but "a bit lower concentrated" than Hans Werner original Balling formulation
concentration of 3+ is not stated by AF. Dosing to be used is "simpler to handle" than what Hans Werner suggested

for me it is "a slightly changed version of Hans-Werners original Balling formulation, sold as pre-mixed liquid solutions under a different name"



The next question that will arise by sure is: "andwhat is about eventual ion dis-balance" ?
lets not mix up things and discuss about this in another thread

[GoVols]

Originally Posted by Martin Kuhn

I did not say that i don't trust your measurements. I just asked and offered to do a 2x check before blaming anybody.

I've been around in reef forums in Europe for quite a while now. I had SEVERAL cases where it pointed out that values taken for serious definately have been the wrong one.
Just some examples:
- Measurement tools for "spec. gravity" thought to ones for "(normal) density/gravity)
- Aerometers have been read wrong, "from above the water surface"
- No temperature measurement whilst measuring with tools that need this (Aerometers, Hydrometers, conductivity sensors). just the reading of "SG" or "density" allone do not tell you the salinity !
- SG values read from a refrak instead of using the psu scale which should be used
- Aerometers used inside tank for measuring
- Measurement tools used showed up to show wrong values
- Measurement errors, or test kits used wrong
- test kits used showed up to be scrap, gebnerating wrong results
- test kits (Ca,Alk,Mg,NO3,PO4) used have never or not recently been
- Ca/ALk/Mg values of salt mixes stated without telling how much the salinity was, AND/OR the salinity value is not to be trusted (see above)
checken with reference solutions. AND/Or values measured have not been corrected with the measured correction factors
and and and ... the complete list is even longer.
Do you want more ?

If you read my first post

Cross checked against 3 different test kits. (Api / Red sea and Elos.

Also drove (The next day) mixed sample 30 miles to Nashville to my (LFS) and they matched my SG and the "Big 3".

I mix 3 - 5 gallon jugs once a week (At the Same Time) for my weekly water changes. Jug 1 finished my current bucket of salt. Opened new bucket and mixed into jugs 2 and 3 which tested to the low Cal and Alk #'s. All 3 jugs came in at 1.025 SG. Jug 1 was still holding NSW parameters.

I would never call Deep Water Aq or posted on here or Dr Foster & Smith without ruling out all possible option but the mix first. Even Deep Water told me sea mix must have be put in reef salt buckets. Well I could see it being OK the first time but after using 3 more buckets and hitting the same low #'s again is not a fluke.

I order six order's

#1 Dead on specs.
#2 Low #'s
#'s 3-5 Dead on Specs
#6 Low #'s

I don't claim be be a reef genius but after 30 years I've never had anybodies salt come in way off who provides QC sheets Like "Salinity". Also I've been around long enough to check anybodies parameter's when opening a new box or bucket. It maybe too late after you see things changing in your main display "for the worst".

It's also not good enough to say send sample Europe. If your going to sale in the states then support us here. When I called Deep Water and Salty Supply the first time they didn't want a sample or the bucket to test. They said all we can do is email Europe. If they did email Europe I wasn't asked to be copied on it. I also didn't ask for a replacement either. As a customer I shouldn't have to if Deep Water is not willing to test it. I guess they don't have the equipment or knowledge either...

Like I said in my post if I wanted to dose up while mixing I'd stayed with regular "Instant Ocean".

Still can't get a answer for any of my questions...

I'm going to ask the last one,--- one more time (Below)

Will Component 1+ 2+ 3+ Stabilize in equal daily dosing on all 3 parts with all major salt mix brands?

Getting this question answered is asking a politician something here in the USA!