Freshwater Bath Recovery Time

docsescape · 12/08/2017, 01:12 PM

First time post, long time reader. I have a fluval M90 system that about a month and a half old. The tank has been cycled for about a month now. I have two ocellaris clowns, and a pistol shrimp/goby combo. I recently noticed one white dot on the body of each of my clown fish. I tried a reef safe Ich medication (kick-ich) and a medicated food for about a week and it has not seemed to work. The gentleman at my LFS suggested a freshwater bath to remove the parasite so I went ahead and tried that today.

I used 1 gallon of RO water that was the same temp as my tank, added a teaspoon of buffer and bathed the little guys for about 6 minutes. While in the bath they were super active, swimming around like their normal selves. When I placed them back into the DT they both were very limp. Since then the larger of the two clowns have returned back to normal but the smaller of the two has in the corner of the tank swimming in circles. I did the bath about an hour ago? Should I be concerned? Or is this normal?

P.S. It didn't even get rid of the white dots!

Tank Parameters:
Sal: 1.025
PH: 8.1
Ammonia & TRITES = 0
Nitrates = 40 (i know a little high I plan on doing a 10 gallon change this weekend)

allendehl · 12/08/2017, 01:21 PM

Hi doc,

Disclosure: I haven't done a fresh water dip...but....Iv'e read some threads that it could last up to aprox 15 mins as long as you don't see extreme stress in the fish. For a newbie like me, that line is pretty blurry since I believe knowing "how much stress is too much" will come with experience.

The fact that they were swimming actively in fresh water is probably they were not liking it a bit, therefore they went to their normal self when put back in salt water.

Now, if you suspect they have ich, I've also read that the best method to prevent/treat is the "Tank Transfer Method" or TTM. This is a sticky that details very well how to do it:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388428

Now, another disclosure, I have never treated a fish with ich...but...I do it preventive to every fish I put in my tank.

Hope it helps and good luck!

billdogg · 12/08/2017, 02:03 PM

^^^Good advice^^^

Sadly, any and all "reef safe" medications that claim to cure Ich are garbage. Freshwater dips are just as ineffective because although they *might* get rid of the parasites on the fish, they will do nothing for the ones in the tank.

There are really only 3 effective treatments, and all require the use of a hospital tank.

1. Copper. By far the most difficult and hazardous to your fish.

2. Hyposalinity. Not quite as stressful to the fish but must still be done correctly

3. As mentioned above, TTM. This is by far the easiest and most effective method I have tried in the 30 or so years I've been at it.

Read the stickies at the top of this forum for detailed instructions

In any case, your tank MUST remain fallow (fishless) for a minimum of 72 days. NO EXCEPTIONS!!!

SAT · 12/08/2017, 03:42 PM

docsescape,

To Reef Central
I agree with the comments above. The best way to manage Ich is to never allow it into your tank in the first place. There is no proven safe and effective way to treat Ich in a reef tank. Your LFS shopkeeper should know that -- but it's sadly common that they don't. I suggest looking around for a more experienced LFS.

Also check the sticky threads in the Fish Disease Treatment forum.

docsescape · 12/08/2017, 03:54 PM

Thanks guys. He seems to be doing much better. He's still hanging out in the corner but he looks a lot more active than he did a few hours ago. I'm not quire sure that it is actually Ich. From my understanding Ich is usually several fine dots usually near the dorsal fin. Each of my clowns only have one pretty distinct white dot, about the size of a pencil tip on the torso region. They didn't seem sick or bothered by it at all but the dots do seem to increase in size gradually.

Unfortunately I don't have another tank to use the TTM, so I'm stuck using the reef safe medications and gave the fresh water bath a try for the first time today. Im hesitant to try that again.

WVfishguy · 12/08/2017, 04:00 PM

I almost always do a freshwater dip before adding fish to a quarantine tank. The "almost" come from clownfish - the clowns I've had did not tolerate freshwater dips. The dip did more harm than good. And it won't work with ich anyway. I dip for flukes and other "large" ectoparasites.

allendehl · 12/08/2017, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by docsescape

Thanks guys. He seems to be doing much better. He's still hanging out in the corner but he looks a lot more active than he did a few hours ago. I'm not quire sure that it is actually Ich. From my understanding Ich is usually several fine dots usually near the dorsal fin. Each of my clowns only have one pretty distinct white dot, about the size of a pencil tip on the torso region. They didn't seem sick or bothered by it at all but the dots do seem to increase in size gradually.

Unfortunately I don't have another tank to use the TTM, so I'm stuck using the reef safe medications and gave the fresh water bath a try for the first time today. Im hesitant to try that again.

A pic would help. I've never seen ich personally but the experts here would know in a split of a second.
As for TTM (whether you use it now or not) I just bought 2 7G buckets from Walmart, the ones that come with a cover and all for about 5 bucks or so each and that is what I am using for 3rd time now. The PITA is the amount of salt water needed since you need to change it all multiple times per cycle. I'd recommend you plan for it, once you get ich in the tank you're doomed for 72 days at least...plus many more headaches.

About your clowns hanging out in a corner that is perfectly normal I believe. Mine do, they picked a top corner of my tank and almost never leave it, they even swim sideways on the surface. I remember when I got them they did the same in TTM and I freaked out thinking they were dying but here they are.

SAT · 12/08/2017, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by docsescape

Thanks guys. He seems to be doing much better. He's still hanging out in the corner but he looks a lot more active than he did a few hours ago. I'm not quire sure that it is actually Ich. From my understanding Ich is usually several fine dots usually near the dorsal fin. Each of my clowns only have one pretty distinct white dot, about the size of a pencil tip on the torso region. They didn't seem sick or bothered by it at all but the dots do seem to increase in size gradually.

Ich spots can be anywhere on the fish, but they are most noticeable on the clear parts of fins, where you will see little white specks and possibly some cloudiness of the surrounding fins. I would not expect an Ich spot to be as large as a "pencil tip", nor would it "increase in size".

docsescape · 12/09/2017, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAT

Ich spots can be anywhere on the fish, but they are most noticeable on the clear parts of fins, where you will see little white specks and possibly some cloudiness of the surrounding fins. I would not expect an Ich spot to be as large as a "pencil tip", nor would it "increase in size".

That's comforting! Any idea what may present like this?

SAT · 12/10/2017, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by docsescape

That's comforting! Any idea what may present like this?

Do the spots have a defined shape or "fuzzy"? Does the tissue around it seem inflamed? A picture might be helpful, but only if you get a clear image.

How long have these spots been on the fish?

docsescape · 12/10/2017, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAT

Do the spots have a defined shape or "fuzzy"? Does the tissue around it seem inflamed? A picture might be helpful, but only if you get a clear image.

How long have these spots been on the fish?

That's the best I can do as far as pictures go.

Clownfish #1: I noticed this on him first about 3.5 weeks ago, the dot has stayed about that size since I've noticed it. About a week and a half ago I noticed the spot was gone (after he ventured throgh my overflow he must have knocked it loose), but since then the spot has grown back in the exact same spot and about the same size.

Clownfish #2: He's the smaller of the two, the spot in reference is a near his gill. I noticed this spot about 2 weeks ago and it this spot is a little larger, a tad more fuzzy, and not as defined as the spot on clownfish #1. This one I notice increased in size since I first saw it.

I do not notice any visible inflammation on either of the clowns. Both clowns are full of energy and don't seem sick at all. I did try the freshwater bath mentioned above on Friday and it does seem that the spots have come a bit more to the surface (like they are getting close to falling off) since the freshwater bath. I am tempted to try the bath again but I'm worried considering the amount of shock that they went through upon re-adding them to the DT. Considering they don't seem sick, they are eating fine, I do not know how concerned I should be.

Uncle99 · 12/11/2017, 12:45 PM

From what I see in the pic, Ick it is not.
Ick would be smattering of white spots like baking flower seen on the body and fins. At this stage, the Ick would already have been in the gills and your fish would not eat and have trouble breathing. If the fish is eating, swimming and all in all acting normal.....just leave him alone and watch carefully for some sign of trouble. You can't effectively treat something that you can't diagnos....

SAT · 12/11/2017, 04:49 PM

I agree it's not Ich. However, I am not able to diagnose it.

If you think these spots might fall off, it might be a good idea for that to happen in a place other than your display tank. If you are going to treat the problem with anything other than a short bath, you will want them to be an a separate treatment tank anyway.

These are wild caught fish, right?

sde1500 · 12/11/2017, 06:03 PM

Isopod maybe?

docsescape · 12/11/2017, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAT

I agree it's not Ich. However, I am not able to diagnose it.

If you think these spots might fall off, it might be a good idea for that to happen in a place other than your display tank. If you are going to treat the problem with anything other than a short bath, you will want them to be an a separate treatment tank anyway.

These are wild caught fish, right?

They are tank raised. Unfortunately I don't have the space for a QT tank.

docsescape · 12/11/2017, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sde1500

Isopod maybe?

I hope not! From the research I've done on Isopods they look pretty clearly like an insect stuck on the side of the fish. This looks like a small cotton ball behind his gill.

docsescape · 12/11/2017, 11:24 PM

After doing a bit more research I fumbled upon Lymphocytosis as a possible diagnosis. It seems to fit the bill, at-least for Clownfish #2. "A raised cotton ball or cauliflower type bump". From what I understand this condition worsens as the fish is stressed, so it's possible I was just feeding the stress with the baths. I may just leave him be for a few weeks and hope that he heals on his own.

12/08/2017, 02:03 PM	#3
billdogg Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Grove City, Ohio Posts: 10,806	^^^Good advice^^^ Sadly, any and all "reef safe" medications that claim to cure Ich are garbage. Freshwater dips are just as ineffective because although they might get rid of the parasites on the fish, they will do nothing for the ones in the tank. There are really only 3 effective treatments, and all require the use of a hospital tank. 1. Copper. By far the most difficult and hazardous to your fish. 2. Hyposalinity. Not quite as stressful to the fish but must still be done correctly 3. As mentioned above, TTM. This is by far the easiest and most effective method I have tried in the 30 or so years I've been at it. Read the stickies at the top of this forum for detailed instructions In any case, your tank MUST remain fallow (fishless) for a minimum of 72 days. NO EXCEPTIONS!!! __________________ I'll try to be nice if you try to be smarter! I can't help that I grow older, but you can't make me grow up! Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef with 40b sump, RO 150 skimmer, AI Sol Blue x 2, and a 60g Frag Tank with 100g rubbermaid sump. 2 x Kessil A360w lights, BM curve 5 skimmer Last edited by billdogg; 12/08/2017 at 05:44 PM.

12/08/2017, 03:42 PM	#4
SAT Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Berwyn, PA Posts: 4,073 Blog Entries: 1	docsescape, *To Reef Central* I agree with the comments above. The best way to manage Ich is to never allow it into your tank in the first place. There is no proven safe and effective way to treat Ich in a reef tank. Your LFS shopkeeper should know that -- but it's sadly common that they don't. I suggest looking around for a more experienced LFS. Also check the sticky threads in the Fish Disease Treatment forum. __________________ Stuart Current Tank Info: 300G Caribbean biotype reef set up in 2003.

12/11/2017, 04:49 PM	#13
SAT Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Berwyn, PA Posts: 4,073 Blog Entries: 1	I agree it's not Ich. However, I am not able to diagnose it. If you think these spots might fall off, it might be a good idea for that to happen in a place other than your display tank. If you are going to treat the problem with anything other than a short bath, you will want them to be an a separate treatment tank anyway. These are wild caught fish, right? __________________ Stuart Current Tank Info: 300G Caribbean biotype reef set up in 2003.

12/11/2017, 06:03 PM	#14
sde1500 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Glocester, RI Posts: 3,336	Isopod maybe? __________________ My build thread: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2548422 Current Tank Info: 65 gallon mixed reef, Eshopps sump and HOB overflow, RO-110int skimmer, Reefbreeder 32" photons V1.

12/08/2017, 01:12 PM	#1
docsescape Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 7	Freshwater Bath Recovery Time First time post, long time reader. I have a fluval M90 system that about a month and a half old. The tank has been cycled for about a month now. I have two ocellaris clowns, and a pistol shrimp/goby combo. I recently noticed one white dot on the body of each of my clown fish. I tried a reef safe Ich medication (kick-ich) and a medicated food for about a week and it has not seemed to work. The gentleman at my LFS suggested a freshwater bath to remove the parasite so I went ahead and tried that today. I used 1 gallon of RO water that was the same temp as my tank, added a teaspoon of buffer and bathed the little guys for about 6 minutes. While in the bath they were super active, swimming around like their normal selves. When I placed them back into the DT they both were very limp. Since then the larger of the two clowns have returned back to normal but the smaller of the two has in the corner of the tank swimming in circles. I did the bath about an hour ago? Should I be concerned? Or is this normal? P.S. It didn't even get rid of the white dots! Tank Parameters: Sal: 1.025 PH: 8.1 Ammonia & TRITES = 0 Nitrates = 40 (i know a little high I plan on doing a 10 gallon change this weekend)

12/08/2017, 01:21 PM	#2
allendehl Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 692	Hi doc, Disclosure: I haven't done a fresh water dip...but....Iv'e read some threads that it could last up to aprox 15 mins as long as you don't see extreme stress in the fish. For a newbie like me, that line is pretty blurry since I believe knowing "how much stress is too much" will come with experience. The fact that they were swimming actively in fresh water is probably they were not liking it a bit, therefore they went to their normal self when put back in salt water. Now, if you suspect they have ich, I've also read that the best method to prevent/treat is the "Tank Transfer Method" or TTM. This is a sticky that details very well how to do it: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388428 Now, another disclosure, I have never treated a fish with ich...but...I do it preventive to every fish I put in my tank. Hope it helps and good luck! __________________ [Newbie here so please take my opinions carefully] Current Tank Info: Red Sea Reefer 350 (72G) \| Jebao DCT 4000 (1056 GPH Max) \| Reef Octopus 152-S \| 2 X Jebao PP8 (2100 GPH Max)

12/08/2017, 03:54 PM	#5
docsescape Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 7	Thanks guys. He seems to be doing much better. He's still hanging out in the corner but he looks a lot more active than he did a few hours ago. I'm not quire sure that it is actually Ich. From my understanding Ich is usually several fine dots usually near the dorsal fin. Each of my clowns only have one pretty distinct white dot, about the size of a pencil tip on the torso region. They didn't seem sick or bothered by it at all but the dots do seem to increase in size gradually. Unfortunately I don't have another tank to use the TTM, so I'm stuck using the reef safe medications and gave the fresh water bath a try for the first time today. Im hesitant to try that again.

12/08/2017, 04:00 PM	#6
WVfishguy Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Huntington, WV Posts: 677	I almost always do a freshwater dip before adding fish to a quarantine tank. The "almost" come from clownfish - the clowns I've had did not tolerate freshwater dips. The dip did more harm than good. And it won't work with ich anyway. I dip for flukes and other "large" ectoparasites.

12/11/2017, 12:45 PM	#12
Uncle99 Crab Free Zone Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,906	From what I see in the pic, Ick it is not. Ick would be smattering of white spots like baking flower seen on the body and fins. At this stage, the Ick would already have been in the gills and your fish would not eat and have trouble breathing. If the fish is eating, swimming and all in all acting normal.....just leave him alone and watch carefully for some sign of trouble. You can't effectively treat something that you can't diagnos....

12/11/2017, 11:24 PM	#17
docsescape Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 7	After doing a bit more research I fumbled upon Lymphocytosis as a possible diagnosis. It seems to fit the bill, at-least for Clownfish #2. "A raised cotton ball or cauliflower type bump". From what I understand this condition worsens as the fish is stressed, so it's possible I was just feeding the stress with the baths. I may just leave him be for a few weeks and hope that he heals on his own.