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Unread 03/22/2012, 10:08 AM   #351
Acronic
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As hasty and high strung the descussion is there is a ton of good info and experience here to learn from!

Im also curious why a ph of 8.4 is of concern? Is it more the swing that is the issue?


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Unread 03/22/2012, 10:12 AM   #352
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Kevin, it spiked over 9. The plot was just to show how things have been the last few days.


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Unread 03/22/2012, 11:14 AM   #353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galleon View Post
Not ill-equipped to handle the increased bacteria, but the increased carbon. Ask Randy what happens when he adds too much vinegar, or Rich ross when he had to drop his pH with a gallon of vinegar. They also get blooms.
I'm not by any means disagreeing that one can over dose on a carbon source. How much of a carbon source will equate to over dosing based on your system however is something I'm sure we could go back and forth on for days.


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No idea. ORP is mostly black magic, in my opinion, unless you are directly controlling ozone. My guess is it wasn't great simply because of the hetertrophic bacteria consuming O2 and making the water less oxidizing. The green water likely did the same at night.
In my experience ORP is a good "indicated parameter" I'll get into that a little later.

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Originally Posted by galleon View Post
And that large, very porous Porites rock (only the front is a veneer of encrusted Porites, it's a chunk of live rock for all intents and purposes). I also I'm not sure I've seen the porosity of branch rock quantified relative to other forms. Think about scale here. People are going bats*** because it only has three pieces of rock in it, now look at the full tank shot and imagine it scaled up to something like a 150. People also forget that LIVE coral skeletons are incredibly porous themselves and have everything from bacteria to endolithic algae living in them naturally.

An Acropora is a micrometers thick layer of tissue over a relatively huge, porous skeleton that is a biofilter in itself. So, in short, No. In fact, I would have had no qualms about not using any live rock at all in this system. I have run successfully Acropora growing systems with ZERO live rock or biofilter to speak of. I only used it to mount frags on above the bottom and I like the look of branch. Die off from the rock is what caused the ammonia spike to begin with.
I'm not sure I agree with this that the corals themselves could be utilized in such a way however I have no means to prove otherwise outside of my experiences with attempting to setup minimal rock tanks so we would just butt heads if we continued down this path. In regards to the tank with no rock, or biofilter I've done that as well but only on a temporary basis. How long was this tank up for? What was it used for I. Are we talking years, weeks, or months? What were the other circumstances around the tank? To say you can setup a tank with no rock at all (note rock not live rock) I believe is a rather bold statement.

I often find there is a very large communication disconnect between "experts/professionals" and hobbyists. We have different goals we look at things from a very different perspective. It can often be challenging to see eye to eye even when discussing the same subject as the means we use for success, perception of terminology, perception and desired results are very different. The same thing can be said of any craft. Me trying to get my devs to explain to somebody in marketing, or a fiance department how the application we are building works, we might as well be speaking different languages (are often we are).



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Originally Posted by galleon View Post
We can quibble all you want about the semantics of timing, but to me, the video speaks for itself, there was no random crash going to happen if I maintained things the way they were going. That's the other thing I have been trying to get across. Very little, rare food additions occurred, the skimmer was ripping (again think about scale), and I used tons of GAC relative to tank volume..
Again I don't think GAC is a replacement for rock. It's something you replace. I just don't see how that would work for long term stability.

There are a few points I'd like to touch on. I agree we won't ever resolve a debate on if the addition of rock ,substrate, or increased cycle time could have helped minimize the situation once you added the carbon source. We don't see eye to eye on my thoughts regarding re-cycling the tank by adding masses equivalent or greater to the total amount of cycle rocks in your system, nor on doing 100% water changes with such a small foot print.. so I say we just set that aside.

Lets go back and talk about the original issue, your PH. As all this stemmed from an over reaction to PH. Why do you think you found your self in a situation where you PH swung so rapidly and such a large amount? Do you not think a more stabilized system would have minimized the swing or was it an external source that caused the swing in the first place. I know once my tanks settle in my ph very rarely moves by more then .1 or so. I honestly for the most part dismiss it.

I know others may not agree with this but I classify my water parameters into different groups.

There are those that are essential sustainability of organisms in my tank, (temp, salinity, amonia, nitrite)

Those are essential for optimal health of organisms in my tank
(alk, calc, mag, nitrate, phosphate)

Those that are indicators of the condition of my tank.
(ph, orp)

and all the stuff I don't test for because I don't add it.

In the rare case I see my PH is off. I don't adjust my PH. I test my other parameters and figure out what may be causing the influx. I would typically start with ALK & Calc, then move to mag if I notice that one of those are off. To me I have found PH means nothing on it's own.


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Unread 03/22/2012, 11:36 AM   #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MammothReefer View Post

I'm not sure I agree with this that the corals themselves could be utilized in such a way
Whether you agree or not has nothing to do with reality of porosity, mass, density and surface area to volume ratio of hermatypic coral skeletons, which host entire communities of endolithic organisms, much less simple bacteria. It ain't rocket surgery. Look at the tank Thales posted on page 6:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...&postcount=136

It is run in EXACTLY this way. And has been up for years! I know this from seeing it in person every year for the last several. It grows Acropora like weeds.

Quote:
however I have no means to prove otherwise outside of my experiences with attempting to setup minimal rock tanks so we would just butt heads if we continued down this path.
I have evidence I'm correct, you have no evidence that I am incorrect. It's pretty much as simple as that.

Quote:
In regards to the tank with no rock, or biofilter I've done that as well but only on a temporary basis. How long was this tank up for? What was it used for I. Are we talking years, weeks, or months? What were the other circumstances around the tank? To say you can setup a tank with no rock at all (note rock not live rock) I believe is a rather bold statement.
Just UV, skimmer, lots of flow, and frags/corals. Same as the tank Thales posted (except he doesn't use UV)!! You're willfully ignoring the facts that are being presented to you.

Quote:
Again I don't think GAC is a replacement for rock. It's something you replace. I just don't see how that would work for long term stability.
That's because it's not a replacement for rock. No one said it was. it's chemical filtration, not biological.

Quote:
Lets go back and talk about the original issue, your PH. As all this stemmed from an over reaction to PH. Why do you think you found your self in a situation where you PH swung so rapidly and such a large amount? Do you not think a more stabilized system would have minimized the swing or was it an external source that caused the swing in the first place. I know once my tanks settle in my ph very rarely moves by more then .1 or so. I honestly for the most part dismiss it.
Did you actually read the blog post? A top off powerhead accidentally sucked kalkwasser slurry directly into the tank. So the short answer is NO. Again, willfully ignoring facts presented to you.

I posted the last 5 days from my Apex so you can see what my normal pH cycle looks like.

Quote:
I know others may not agree with this but I classify my water parameters into different groups.
There are those that are essential sustainability of organisms in my tank, (temp, salinity, amonia, nitrite)
I'm sorry, but alkalinity and pH absolutely belong in this category.


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Unread 03/22/2012, 11:55 AM   #355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galleon View Post
Whether you agree or not has nothing to do with reality of porosity, mass, density and surface area to volume ratio of hermatypic coral skeletons, which host entire communities of endolithic organisms, much less simple bacteria. It ain't rocket surgery. Look at the tank Thales posted on page 6:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...&postcount=136

It is run in EXACTLY this way. And has been up for years! I know this from seeing it in person every year for the last several. It grows Acropora like weeds.

I have evidence I'm correct, you have no evidence that I am incorrect. It's pretty much as simple as that.

Just UV, skimmer, lots of flow, and frags/corals. Same as the tank Thales posted (except he doesn't use UV)!! You're willfully ignoring the facts that are being presented to you.

That's because it's not a replacement for rock. No one said it was. it's chemical filtration, not biological.
Again this is where we just don't see eye to eye. So there is no point debating it, we won't get anywhere. You have your "one truth" and that is that. not to pick a fight but you've been dismissing the questions who's answers aren't favorable to your point. So there really isn't any point in continuing down the road. On another note the tank linked above clearly is attached to a larger system and not simply a stand alone bin with a couple racks and some corals. I can also see rock under the egg crate.. sooo who knows.


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Originally Posted by galleon View Post
Did you actually read the blog post? A top off powerhead accidentally sucked kalkwasser slurry directly into the tank. So the short answer is NO. Again, willfully ignoring facts presented to you.

I posted the last 5 days from my Apex so you can see what my normal pH cycle looks like.
I skimmed it so no I didn't see that part. Makes sense now.



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Originally Posted by galleon View Post
I'm sorry, but alkalinity and pH absolutely belong in this category.
I disagree on PH. PH is an indicator a byproduct of the mixture of other parameters in my tank. As far as I'm consider that is how I use it when I run my tanks it works well serving that purpose, nothing more nothing less. Again this is where our different perspectives of communication are clearly going to collide, and that's ok. I would never try to control my ph by chemical means I would try to correct the issue that is causing my ph to be off in your case you added kalk slurry which in theory spiked your alk. Had it be me, I would have been testing alk and figuring out the best way to deal with returning that to normal and thanking for ph for giving me a heads up but making no efforts to modify it on it's own.

Alk can go back and forth between categories it really depends how granular you are and what type of tank you are keeping and how you are adding it. Your tank can tolerate a large range of alk, stability is more important then a specific number so for that reason I put it in the other category.


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Unread 03/22/2012, 12:01 PM   #356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MammothReefer View Post
I would never try to control my ph by chemical means I would try to correct the issue that is causing my ph to be off in your case you added kalk slurry which in theory spiked your alk. Had it be me, I would have been testing alk and figuring out the best way to deal with returning that to normal and thanking for ph for giving me a heads up but making no efforts to modify it on it's own.
This represents a very fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between carbonate alkalinity and pH and how kalkwasser produces carbonate alkalinity. Without sufficient carbon dioxide to quench the hydroxide present from CaOH2, free OH will remain and the pH will remain high with minimal effect on the carbonate system alkalinity until enough CO2 had been drawn down to quench the OH-.


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Unread 03/22/2012, 12:12 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by galleon View Post
This represents a very fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between carbonate alkalinity and pH and how kalkwasser produces carbonate alkalinity. Without sufficient carbon dioxide to quench the hydroxide present from CaOH2, free OH will remain and the pH will remain high with minimal effect on the carbonate system alkalinity until enough CO2 had been drawn down to quench the OH-.
Even so, this is where we differ in communication and goals for our tank. To me the larger area for concern would have been the spike in alkalinity as a result of adding the slurry. You and I look at things from very different points of view. Personally I don't care anything about the "sufficient carbon dioxide to quench the hydroxide present from CaOH2, free OH will remain and the pH will remain high with minimal effect on the carbonate system alkalinity until enough CO2 had been drawn down to quench the OH".

To me the only thing that matters is my ALK was at 8.0 and now it's a 10.0. Yes I know I'm simplifying things without looking for the man behind the curtain, but when it comes to a hobby like this I've found the 2 key things that matter most are Simplicity, and Consistency.


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Unread 03/22/2012, 01:02 PM   #358
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couple of questions out of curiosity.
I noticed your 400w is up pretty high above the tank. Is this due to heat?
You easily could have used a 250w MH and lowered it and saved energy. Maybe you just has the 400watter hanging around? You would have the same amount of lumens/light.

Is there any ''reason'' for this bare type setup? just wondering and not critisizing. Its a fairly small tank so you won't have many corals that you can growout to big.


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Unread 03/22/2012, 02:43 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by MammothReefer View Post
On another note the tank linked above clearly is attached to a larger system and not simply a stand alone bin with a couple racks and some corals. I can also see rock under the egg crate.. sooo who knows.
I know, I designed it and run it.

I am not sure why you think it is 'clearly' attached to a larger system, and am not sure why you would reach that conclusion from one photo - especially since right above the photo it says "Here is a pic of part of a 550 gallon grow out system that has been running essentially the same way as Galleons tank for the past 4 years", unless for some reason you think I am lying.

It is not attached to a larger system. It is simply a stand alone bin (about 500 gallons) with an FRP deck as a coral rack and some corals. The rock to water and coral ratios are pretty close to they system Galleon has. If there is any rock under the egg crate in the picture, it is because there are lower light corals on that rock.


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Unread 03/22/2012, 02:45 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by MammothReefer View Post
Again this is where we just don't see eye to eye. So there is no point debating it, we won't get anywhere. You have your "one truth" and that is that. not to pick a fight but you've been dismissing the questions who's answers aren't favorable to your point.
I think this is an unfair representation of the discussion in this thread.


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Unread 03/22/2012, 03:48 PM   #361
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Chris, I am very sorry for your tank crash. I have watched your intelligent discussions in reef chat for well over a decade now and have always been very impressed with your talent, knowledge and abilities.

You set forth on an unusual build and we should be here to watch and learn from the knowledge base you have, instead of being bitter and critical because you are working 'outside the box'.

We all make mistakes with our tanks. Even I have crashed a tank from a dumb mistake. It must be nice that some people are so perfect that they can condescend from on high in a 7th grader fashion.

I'm glad to see you admitted to your crash publicly as well. Hopefully some people can look past the juvenile candor an come away with some good information to put to use in their tanks!


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Unread 03/22/2012, 03:54 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by MammothReefer View Post
I disagree on PH. PH is an indicator a byproduct of the mixture of other parameters in my tank. As far as I'm consider that is how I use it when I run my tanks it works well serving that purpose, nothing more nothing less. Again this is where our different perspectives of communication are clearly going to collide, and that's ok. I would never try to control my ph by chemical means I would try to correct the issue that is causing my ph to be off in your case you added kalk slurry which in theory spiked your alk. Had it be me, I would have been testing alk and figuring out the best way to deal with returning that to normal and thanking for ph for giving me a heads up but making no efforts to modify it on it's own.
Except that high pH can kill animals outright while high Alk won't.
An imperfect analogy might be falling in a vat of 115 degree F lye and being more concerned with the temp of the lye than the lye itself. Sure long exposure in the 115 degree fluid will result in burns, but the lye is going to dissolve flesh. The bigger concern is what is going to cause more damage first.


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Unread 03/22/2012, 04:01 PM   #363
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The irony is moist, fluffy and delicious. Claiming I told you so on my husbandry without understanding the carbonate system in your own tank. The simplicity and consistency idea is bad if the simplicity doesn't reflect reality.


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Unread 03/22/2012, 05:15 PM   #364
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Galleon...Bravo! Great entertaining thread. I also enjoyed your photos extremely. I am a nobody that still struggles to understand reefing completely. I am sometimes surprised my corals look the way they do. Conversely, i wouldnt be surprised if i woke up tomorrow to find all my corals bleached. It happens sometimes, to even the best reefers. I dont profess to know more than any of the posters here, but i do know that I want to increase my chances of success by decreasing the margin for error. It seems you have increased your margin here and I, like John and im sure many other readers want to know, but are afraid to ask..."is there any ''reason'' for this bare type setup... with the supernova?" Are you hoping for a different result by using a light that is not normally used, to show yourself and others that you can get better results (ie. better colour, faster growth?) Im confident that this tank can be successful with your set-up as long as the owner is dedicated and competent which you look to be, but again why? when you might get the result from less wattage, perhaps even a 150mh. I like to tinker, test, measure, move things around in my reef like everyone else, but above all, i hate to worry.

On a side note... your tank and photos actually inspired my little extreme change as well. I now run 2 MP40s and 1 MP60 on a 90 all three at 100% at times... the horror!


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Unread 03/22/2012, 05:50 PM   #365
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1) I'm not going to sit here and argue with 2 people at once.
2) I'm glad you are back to belittlement, insults, and misrepresentations of what I've said. As I'm guessing you find it easier then answering questions that may result in loosing face.

Enjoy your tank, I enjoy mine. It seems you choose to push this conversation to a point where we end up degrading this conversation to a ****ing contest resulting in us bantering going back and forth comparing tanks to our husbandry methods. This would be Juvenile in the least. Maybe I have no clue as to why what i'm doing works well, but what I'm doing gets the job done and that's all I care about. I'm just a hobbyist these days and had I wanted to take a career path in marine science, instead of computer science I could have done so. However I'm far to greedy and I very much enjoy programming. So I hope you are feeling pretty good about yourself coming on to an enthusiast forum and swinging around your profession like your member. It must make you feel pretty big thinking you are stumping us peons. I know that's how I feel every time I make fun of somebody for building a web site in word press..er no wait that would be mean.

I think if there is any irony to be had it's when so called experts fumble over the simplistic tasks and most basic husbandry methodology but poo poo all over the rest of us.. You couldn't have just done a water change when you saw your power head (not doser) was putting an abundance of slurry in your tank? Like I said simplicity, and constancy words to live by in reefing.


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Unread 03/22/2012, 06:39 PM   #366
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Wow

Talk about passive/aggressive baiting/trolling and insulting.

Whatever you claim is being done to you MR is both untrue,and of your own making, lol.


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Unread 03/22/2012, 06:42 PM   #367
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Wow

Talk about passive/aggressive baiting/trolling and insulting.

Whatever you claim is being done to you MR is both untrue,and of your own making, lol.
That's your biased opinion, I read otherwise.


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Unread 03/22/2012, 07:01 PM   #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MammothReefer View Post
1) I'm not going to sit here and argue with 2 people at once.
How many times have you said you weren't going to argue with me in this thread??

Quote:
2) I'm glad you are back to belittlement, insults, and misrepresentations of what I've said. As I'm guessing you find it easier then answering questions that may result in loosing face.
Losing face to who? My long time friends and colleagues? Sorry to tell you, but they are the ones here defending me. You're the one that needs some face saving right now, telling me I'm fumbling simplistic tasks when you don't understand the fundamentals of carbonate chemistry.

Quote:
I think if there is any irony to be had it's when so called experts fumble over the simplistic tasks and most basic husbandry methodology but poo poo all over the rest of us..
Who is poopooing on who?? Who is so-calling who an expert?

Quote:
You couldn't have just done a water change when you saw your power head (not doser) was putting an abundance of slurry in your tank? Like I said simplicity, and constancy words to live by in reefing.
Uh, it happened once, when the powerhead fell. If you actually read the blog post you claim you read, you'd know that. I used the same top off method for 4 months before this happened. Also, you say "not doser" as if that's what I should be doing, but the powerhead output is restricted to acceptable flow rates using a ball valve.

And, as soon as I noticed it, I DID do a water change, as I said on the blog and here in this thread. I'm guessing you're just trolling now.

The bottom line is some real actual well known long term successful aquarium experts told you that I actually do know what I'm talking about and your ego won't let you accept it.



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Unread 03/22/2012, 07:13 PM   #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maoiwowie View Post
"is there any ''reason'' for this bare type setup...
Nothing more remarkable than that it was what I wanted to do!

Quote:
" Are you hoping for a different result by using a light that is not normally used,
Not normally? You need to review your SPS keeping history!!

Quote:
to show yourself and others that you can get better results (ie. better colour, faster growth?)
Hell no. This is no competition. I wanted to entertain myself with a small tank that had Acropora in it. Go back to page one and I said that exact same thing!


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Unread 03/22/2012, 07:13 PM   #370
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let it go guys, this thread can still be salvaged


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Unread 03/22/2012, 07:20 PM   #371
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HOLD THE PHONE!!!! This is a noteable event!!!!

Today is one of the few days in my life that I am in complete and total 100% agreement with something that Vitz has said.

Mark my words, the end of the world is surely nigh!




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Unread 03/22/2012, 07:36 PM   #372
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My history began with a 175SE Hamilton pendant 10K ushio many years ago. And forgive me if I seem naive, but this is the first tank that I have seen that rocks a 400W over a 20! And I understand completely... doing it just to do. D@mnit! I like to drive fast too! To each his own. Goodluck!

* Confession... when i first started i thought i could grow brown SPS bought from Aquarium City in the valley using POWER PCs!!!



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Unread 03/22/2012, 07:38 PM   #373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MammothReefer View Post
1) I'm not going to sit here and argue with 2 people at once.
I am not arguing with anyone, I am having a discussion on a reefkeeping message board. Please understand that whatever conversation you are having with anyone else in this thread they are not me, so please keep emotions directed at the appropriate person.

There was a misunderstanding about a tank I keep, so I cleared that up. I have also commented on the problems between high pH and high Alk because I think it is important for anyone reading to understand that focusing on high alk during high pH emergent situation can mean death to animals.

Its all very interesting to me, and by the responses, others as well.


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Unread 03/22/2012, 08:13 PM   #374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thales View Post
I am not arguing with anyone, I am having a discussion on a reefkeeping message board. Please understand that whatever conversation you are having with anyone else in this thread they are not me, so please keep emotions directed at the appropriate person.

There was a misunderstanding about a tank I keep, so I cleared that up. I have also commented on the problems between high pH and high Alk because I think it is important for anyone reading to understand that focusing on high alk during high pH emergent situation can mean death to animals.

Its all very interesting to me, and by the responses, others as well.
I disagree Thales, ignoring ALK and letting that swing around WILL lead to death. PH is a good indicator of your other parameters. You aren't going to have PH threw the roof is something else isn't off, and if you fix the something else your PH will fall back in line. That has always been my experience and has worked out very well for me.

I don't agree that your 500 gallon something system is in away comparable to a 20l with 2 piece of tonga branch. I was simply trying to convey that sentiment. I ran systems of comparable size, both on the small and the big size for MANY years.

But you are right maybe argue wasn't the best choice of words, however it's difficult to have similar but slightly different conversations with 2 people at once when one of those persons is twisting things around, and not having a linear conversation while throwing in underhanded remarks and overt insults in the mix.

Colleague, friend or otherwise the manner which Chris conducts himself both openly on the forum (and privately) in pm. Comes off rude, condescending, and overly defensive. At no point is he open to thoughts, opinions, or suggestions of others. Maybe he is like this in real life, maybe he doesn't translate well online. Either way it's no skin off my back. I would be more then happy to continue on open dialogue on the subject of practical application of PH & Alkalinity in the home aquarium but I would rather not do so with Chris's involvement as I feel he is unable to leave behind his emotions nor is he interested in debate and discussion, only lecture.

I may not know the "fundamentals of carbonate chemistry", but nor do I need to. Let somebody else figure out the algorithm, I'm happy to just play around with the variables. However if I were to feel the need I have no doubt I or any member of this forum could be as well versed as we desired.

Either way my previous offer still stands if ever given the chance.(drinks on me, but I make no promises to not giving him a nickname of something along "the brain" if I do find myself intoxicated) I never take ones conduct behind a computer to be a judge of ones true character.

I do however feel that there is often a large communication gap between "professionals" and hobbyists "experts" in a given field often have a very hard time communicating in a manor that is accessible to the majority of us, and don't quite grasp our desires to enjoy and run our tanks not as some grandiose experiment but as relaxing hobby. This is especially true for those whom are still cutting there teeth. I often find myself doing the same thing when discussing my profession it's a trap we all fall into.

-B


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Last edited by MammothReefer; 03/22/2012 at 08:19 PM.
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Unread 03/22/2012, 08:24 PM   #375
fishinchick
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Uh ... you realize that by continually posting and trying to justify you arent arguing you are therefore arguing, right?

... I'm just sayin'

So in a subject change so we can stop beating that dead horse ...

Where do you plan to go from here Chris?


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