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02/22/2007, 07:49 PM | #1 |
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Bubble Tower
I want to build a bubble tower in my sump to TRY and eliminate micro bubbles.I saw this in another thread but did not want to hi jack it.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...readid=1053339 Question- if I fill this chamber with bio balls(all will be under the water line) instead of live rock,will nitrates be an issue? I'm thinking bioballs would be a better choice because they are uniform in shape and would fill the chamber better.
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02/22/2007, 09:52 PM | #2 |
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I have a bubble tower in my system. On thing I had to install later was a water break after the drain inlet. The water in the drain was coming out so fast and was laden with bubbles. This water jet shot right under the bubble tower bottom and let tons of microbubbles escape. The water break slows the water down and I get better bubble filtering
I don't have bioballs. I would think they would be a nitrate factory. They might create a water break, but you would be better off finding another way.
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02/22/2007, 10:45 PM | #3 |
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What is a water break? Like a ball valve?
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02/23/2007, 02:26 AM | #4 |
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Actually, you dont want bio-balls in the tower, they will cause more bubbles to get through. Just wide-open water space will allow for the best pressure increase to remove the bubbles.
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02/23/2007, 09:16 AM | #5 |
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stay away from the bio balls if you need to breakup the rock with a hammer so it fits better
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02/23/2007, 12:09 PM | #6 |
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completely submerged bio balls should be no different then any other surface in the tank. they should not trap any detrius. no idea on how they would work as bubble stoppers.
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02/23/2007, 01:37 PM | #7 | |
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The bubble tower effectively takes the fast moving water coming down the overflow drain (let's say 1" pipe) and in theory slows the flow rate by expanding the diameter of the pipe (say 4"). Here's a sketchup of my bubble tower. The problem is the 1" inlet pipe to the tower is centered and aimed straight down. When the water exits the 1" pipe, you want it to widen out it's flow pattern so that the water moves slowly down to the bottom of the tower. In reality what happens is the 1" water inlet pipe creates a high velocity jet that shoots straight to the bottom of the tower carrying bubbles with it. The water break is some obstruction that you place near the inlet inside the tower to break up and distribute this jet.
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02/23/2007, 01:55 PM | #8 | |
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02/23/2007, 02:11 PM | #9 |
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Keelay, bubbles getting into the system in the first place can be minimized by placing a valve on the bubble chamber right where the pipe meets the expansion chamber. This would make a backup drain a good idea.
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02/23/2007, 04:38 PM | #10 | |
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as far as bubble stopping, i assume you are 100% correct and will keep that in mind but i am sure i will try many things. i have about 2g of bio balls laying around as well as plenty of live rock rubble. will also try nothing and plan to try using a foam filter. Last edited by douggiestyle; 02/23/2007 at 04:49 PM. |
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02/23/2007, 04:49 PM | #11 | |
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Here's a diagram hopefully illustrating better my suggestion:
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02/23/2007, 04:52 PM | #12 |
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the water break is exactly what im using. i got the idea off the tide pool filtration system. seem to work well and also quiets everything. tide pools is slightly conical.
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02/23/2007, 04:55 PM | #13 | |
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02/23/2007, 04:59 PM | #14 | |
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02/23/2007, 09:11 PM | #15 |
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I'm in the process of collecting ideas and materials to do this.
I have two 1" drains.Thinking of running them into a 2" cross fitting w/bushings to accept the 1" drains then down to a 5" pipe to bottom of sump.Top part of cross fitting will have a loose cap to vent air. Any suggestion how to make and secure this 'water break'.Was thinking siliconing something in pvc but dont know what to use or if it will hold up. Iwas also wondering if this design is going to act like a super charged skimmer.forcing bubbles up the smaller pipe.
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02/23/2007, 11:11 PM | #16 |
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Why not put a T in the camber and some 1" 45's pointing opposite directions? Kinda how an air seperator in a hydronic system works.
Like this but the 45's are paralell to the T...kinda tried to draw it isometric.
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02/23/2007, 11:48 PM | #17 | |
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02/24/2007, 12:19 AM | #18 | |
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I might have missed it, but what is a water break? And should you run this tower all the way to the bottom of the sump? what size pvc should the tower be?
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02/24/2007, 12:42 AM | #19 | |
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(1) The left most drawing is a simple bubble tower with no water break . The fast moving water from the drain enters the bubble tower at the top and carries the bubbles generated in the drain and at impact with the water surface down under the bottom of the bubble tower. This narrow stream of water doesn't spread out when it enters the bubble tower, it continues in this narrow column to the bottom of the sump. This is undesirable since it doesn't filter bubbles as well as it could. This tower configuration however does eliminate the drains sounds and helps minimize salt spray. (2)The right most drawing illustrates adding a water break. A water break is nothing more than some obstruction or mechanism to change the flow of the water entering the bubble tower. Slow the water down so to speak. It ideally should spread the flow so that the whole water column in the bubble trap moves down in it's entirety. This is the slowest the water can move for a given input flow rate. And therefore will provide the best bubble filtering. This illustration provides the same level of quieting, but adds better bubble filtering and therefore lessens salt spray than the previous drawing. The make the bubble tower effective the water column should be as wide as you can make it. It also should be as tall as possible. That being said, the water column height can only be as tall as your sump level. So yes the bubble tower should go down to the bottom. Add some teeth on the bottom (see previous sketchup diagram) for the water to exit out all sides. I used 4" PVC from my 1" drain pipe. I'm have run this up to approx 500 GPH. I have not maxed it out to see what it can do.
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02/24/2007, 12:58 AM | #20 |
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ok sorta makes sense... would just a regluar T fitting placed upside down work for a break?
how did you make your connections go from the 1" up to your 4" |
02/24/2007, 01:24 AM | #21 | ||
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I used a 1" MPT to 1" Female Slip adapter. I used a heat gun to soften the edges of the hole i just drilled in the cap. I then screwed the adapter threads into the hole. The threads sink into the soft PVC and will form to the male threaded adapter. PVC will harden again after it cools. I then drilled a 1/4 inch hole in the top of the cap for an air vent There are other ways to do this. You could drill a hold for a bulkhead .
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02/24/2007, 01:35 AM | #22 | |
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02/24/2007, 01:52 AM | #23 |
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Here' s a couple of photos of the bubble tower. While I have two inlets, the 90 is capped since I no longer use it. I have the holes in the bottom of the tower drilled all the way around for the water to exit evenly. The bottom us completely open and sits on top of my DSB
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02/24/2007, 10:14 AM | #24 |
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No, I still disagree Hahn. I have not really contradicted myself, I am just stating that a wet/dry filter does not create the problems people claim. If it did then I would be having those problems. So there must be more to nitrate problems than just having a wet/dry
filter. I think you would agree with me on that point simply for the fact that people without wet/dry filters have nitrate problems. In addition, because I have a wet/dry filter and do not have nitrate problems then it is safe to say that wet/dry filters alone do not cause nitrate problems. Still surface area is surface area. Moreover, high flow is high flow. Therefore, the more live rock and the more flow you have around it the closer you come to the parameters of a wet/dry filter, according to your suggestions. I think we would agree that is not the case. The argument could be made that live rock does not cause the problem because it is so porous therefore; it creates those dead zones needed for anaerobic bacteria. Well if they are dead then little nitrate will enter as well as the O2, now that is a contradiction. Yet, flow rates are frequently being increased within the tank. I do not believe that is the case nor would most people. lets say we perpetuate this belief that live rocks porosity is what makes its surface area ok. Then it can be assumed that any thing relatively nonporous added to the tank would create surface area similar to bioballs. Well this would create a contradiction for all those that have used less porous "base" rock, fossilized reef rock (Florida live rock), ceramic rock, homemade rock (the kind that many people are making that does not use rock salt to make it more porous) or limestone as base rock. Do to their lower porosity all these products would create the nitrate problems you have cited especially if they are in a high flow area. I think we would all agree that is not the case. Look at this http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/2/aquarium 10,000 pounds of limestone. That is 1/4 of all the rock (by weight) in the tank. No nitrate problems. So using all the evidence presented to us it can safely be said that increasing surface area with in the tank does not create a nitrate problem regardless of what its constructed of. At least that is my theory, a theory based on available evidence. In addition, in regards to CPR, they may only be reflecting consumer demand. The fact that they removed the bio balls does not mean that CPR has tested their effect and found that the bioballs ruin the overall health of the tank. If it sounds like I am being vague, its because I am not sure on what this all means for the tank. That is why I also suggested that no one use my drivel to design his or her tank around. However, continue doing what you are doing as long as it works. All this aside it is a moot point in regards to this thread because as you have pointed out, as a bubble remover, you have found that submerged bio balls work poorly. I trust that you are correct. |
02/24/2007, 10:46 PM | #25 |
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Wet Drys are notorious nitrate producers... just because you havent seen that result yet, or perhaps your LR is keeping up. People can have nitrate problems for a variety of reasons beyond a wet-dry, so to deduct that wet-drys must not be part of the problem is not accurate.
You need to talk with Bornemann, Calfo, or maybe Holmes-Farley. There is plenty of work on the subject... bio-balls were designed to convert ammonia and nitrite to nitrates. Its part of the process. Part of that process also results in the release of phosphates by the aerobic bacteria. |
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