Algae Scrubber Advanced

[el aguila]

As a quick update. Got 4 drivers last Friday and my LEDs on Monday. When I hooked everything up last night two of my drivers came defective, so I'm still trying to get it on line.

[widmer]

OK I have two things to say:

1.

Originally Posted by der_wille_zur_macht

I would be interested to hear from people who are using a format other than the standard "hang a sheet of mesh from a slotted pipe." I understand why this is the most popular approach and that it's easy to build and get results from, but I'm wondering if it's best for me in the long term.

I am most interested in configurations that:

1) Are cheap
2) Are more compact/self contained (this is my biggest complaint with the common vertical screen, by the time you've put lamps with good reflectors and splash guards on it, it's HUGE and awkward.)

I'm in the process of building the same format that I've been mentioning here and there for the past year , which is an ATS unit that is designed to be essentially similar to a table fountain; It will be sitting on the cabinet right next to the aquarium, with a sort of "waterfall" running down cement plates that I am molding to fit. I know the ceramic plates didn't work out so well for kcress, but due to PaulB's and my own experience with algae rooting well on cement substrate, I'm optimistic. I'll post pics at some point here.

2. (separate subject) I've got a pile of the $1.99 red 660 nm LEDs coming in the mail this week (hopefully tomorrow...) from the LED group buy site. The primary reason I bought them was for construction of a small terrestrial plant light, but I am also planning on making my ATS light out of 2x XP-G warm white + ~4x red 660s. I'll be sure to post pics of this also. IMO, the 60 degree optics on them should be great, though it would be better if they were <30 degrees...

And finally, I exhaustively looked over the spec sheet for the Osram golden dragon 660s, and found them to be really quite efficient in creating red light (at least through comparison to the Cree XP-series LEDs). I might try to acquire one of these to compare to the $1.99 660s, since no data is available on the group buy website... From looking at a few pages of this thread, I can't tell, does anyone have experience with these LEDs?

[widmer]

Also, just so I can be a little bit useful in this thread for now:

When I first saw 660 nm LEDs in action, I thought to myself "gosh, that's not very bright; it will be nice when someone comes out with one that's more efficient." And then I got to thinking, "Why aren't there more 660 nm LEDs floating around society already?" It was at this point that I remembered the whole basis of the lumen rating system - our eyes respond differently to different colors. And here's a picture:



As you can see, the 660 nm color is right where our perception starts to really take a dive. I snipped this right out of the Osram 660 nm golden dragon datasheet, found here: http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...O1qGUagR5e4J3H

[salty joe]

Originally Posted by widmer

OK I have two things to say:

1.



. IMO, the 60 degree optics on them should be great, though it would be better if they were <30 degrees...

B]

How far from the waterfall are you going to mount the LEDs?

[Floyd R Turbo]

You want no optics at all or else you will get spotting, especially with 3W LEDs, and with 60 deg optics you will need to be >5" away from the screen. 30 degree optics would be right out.

All the DIYer seem to be focused on 3W LEDs. Why is this, when 3 x 1W LEDs generate more lumens (since 1W LEDs are actually <1W, and 3W LEDs are way, way less than 3W) and can get tighter pattern, and put them closer to the screen. Are the 1W 660s just that much more expensive?

[widmer]

Originally Posted by salty joe

How far from the waterfall are you going to mount the LEDs?

Somewhere in the ballpark of ~12"

Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo

You want no optics at all or else you will get spotting, especially with 3W LEDs, and with 60 deg optics you will need to be >5" away from the screen. 30 degree optics would be right out.

All the DIYer seem to be focused on 3W LEDs. Why is this, when 3 x 1W LEDs generate more lumens (since 1W LEDs are actually <1W, and 3W LEDs are way, way less than 3W) and can get tighter pattern, and put them closer to the screen. Are the 1W 660s just that much more expensive?

From my own perspective, I enjoy the flexibility of the now-common "3w" leds, namely the Cree series, since so many options for optics are available. My prerogative is to keep the light fixture mounted far away from the tank, and in this case, far away from the ATS.

In general, I think when LEDs started becoming popular in DIY fixtures between 1-2 years ago, anything that wasn't a Cree HP LED got a bad rep, because time and time again it was demonstrated that basically none of the other miscellaneous were anywhere near as efficient in terms of quantity of light produced per watt consumed. So people have been more or less conditioned to look for these LEDs and many suppliers have primarily carried these.

FWIW, I can understand the attraction to the convenience of calling an LED "1w" or "3w" but it's such a misnomer... If we take the commonplace XP-G for example, it would be within spec to run push 5w through it (@ 1500 mA), but I would guess that most people run closer to 2.5w through it (@ 700 mA)

Meanwhile, the $1.99 660s I got at the group buy site don't really specify anything other than "2.3v @ 700 mA" which would be 1.6w so I'm not sure what we would want to call these...

[scolley]

Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo

You want 630nm and/or 660nm red. No whites of any kind, there's not enough red or blue component to them to do anything.

Floyd - I'm too lazy to dig through your very long recent posts in this thread, but you're expressing the same sentiment here in this thread. Specifically that white LEDs won't work. That's just flat wrong.

Red may be better, but nine months ago I started running an all CW XR-E fixture with good success. Granted, the algae was not all the highly desirable thinks hair type. But the fact is, algae is algae. It all pulls nitrates and phosphates out of the water, and my all CW scrubbers pulled those numbers down to zero in my tank. I've posted plenty of detail about it - including pics of the thickly covered algae mat - in the Algae Scrubber Basics I linked to above.

That LED fixture bite the dust when I accidentally spilled water on it and toasted it. When I rebuilt I use all whites (whatever I had in the extra's bin; CW & NW XR-Es) except adding 2 Osram 660 reds. My observations are that this new fixture made little difference to growth, over the old all CW fixture.

As I noted in the other thread, I recently moved the LED fixture to a new stand and saw a dramatic different change in the nature of the algae. No more abundant than previously, but now at only 3.5" from the optic free LEDs the algae shifted to almost all hair algae. Here' a pic of 1/2 of the screen... comes up from the screen with a credit card in a single sheet. Previously I had to put it in a cup for for pics. It didn't hold together. I'm only showing 1/2 of the algae because rather than cleaning the whole screen every week, I clean 1/2 every week.



But I digress. My point is... while LEDs can work just fine. Reds might be better, but to say whites don't work is incorrect.

[aquaenthusiast]

Originally Posted by scolley

But I digress. My point is... while LEDs can work just fine. Reds might be better, but to say whites don't work is incorrect.

I guess the conclusion that we are trying to arrive at is that red has the longest wavelength and violet has the shortest wavelength. When all the waves are seen together, they make white light, which is what you see in white leds. White led's in fact probably have the reds and violets and other wavelengths in between it's just that they are NOT as efficient at growing algae as say a 660nm leds. Basically when you use white led's your wasting a lot of power/electricity to achieve the same thing.

[scolley]

Originally Posted by aquaenthusiast

...they are NOT as efficient at growing algae as say a 660nm leds.

Thanks. That sounds fine. But it's still wrong to state that whites don't work. Instead it should be stated that they are not the most effecient.

That said, just out of curiosity, is there a body of evidence supporting this? Specifically people using a dramatically less power for 660 nm red than I am, yet getting comparable results? Would be interested in seeing that.

Thanks.

[Floyd R Turbo]

I'll add it to the 'experiment' list haha....yeah I'm never going to get that done

[gemini aquarius(t)]

I dont know how to search specifically in these ATS stickies, but what do you guys think about running Biopellets with an ATS?

[Floyd R Turbo]

Carbon dosing in general provides an energy source for bacteria to consume the waste products of feeding. To remove the excess waste, the standard procedure is to run a oversized skimmer. Running a BP reactor and a skimmer and a scrubber certainly would achieve the goal of a redundant filtration system, but the BP reactor (or any carbon dosing method for that matter) would tend to compete directly with the scrubber, so your growth will turn yellow (nutrient deficient) especially if your scrubber is too big. Now you could make your scrubber way too small compared to your feeding, say 1/2 or even 1/4 size, and the scrubber would just be 'mopping up' what the BP/bacteria couldn't. But then your scrubber cannot react as fast if you have a problem such as a dead trapped fish or a kid dumping a jar of food in the tank, and the carbon dosing surely will not react fast enough for this scenario, but a properly sized scrubber will.

[wayne44]

I turned off my skimmer last night I hope it was the right decision i'm still running GFO and my homemade scrubber thats been running a bout 5 weeks now I had a really bad algae outbreak but its looking better now was dosing vodka and I stopped that about the time I started the scrubber I just have a few algae strings still hanging around any advice very much appreciated thanx

[gemini aquarius(t)]

Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo

Carbon dosing in general provides an energy source for bacteria to consume the waste products of feeding. To remove the excess waste, the standard procedure is to run a oversized skimmer. Running a BP reactor and a skimmer and a scrubber certainly would achieve the goal of a redundant filtration system, but the BP reactor (or any carbon dosing method for that matter) would tend to compete directly with the scrubber, so your growth will turn yellow (nutrient deficient) especially if your scrubber is too big. Now you could make your scrubber way too small compared to your feeding, say 1/2 or even 1/4 size, and the scrubber would just be 'mopping up' what the BP/bacteria couldn't. But then your scrubber cannot react as fast if you have a problem such as a dead trapped fish or a kid dumping a jar of food in the tank, and the carbon dosing surely will not react fast enough for this scenario, but a properly sized scrubber will.

Perfect! Thanks Floyd! Exactly the answer I was looking for

[JohnnyB in SD]

Originally Posted by wayne44

I turned off my skimmer last night I hope it was the right decision i'm still running GFO and my homemade scrubber thats been running a bout 5 weeks now I had a really bad algae outbreak but its looking better now was dosing vodka and I stopped that about the time I started the scrubber I just have a few algae strings still hanging around any advice very much appreciated thanx

If you're concerned, try phasing the skimmer down as opposed to turning it off cold turkey. Put it on a timer, maybe run 12 on / 12 off, see how it goes.
Doing anything drastic or too fast in a reef tank seems to cause issues from my experience.

[srusso]

Originally Posted by wayne44

I turned off my skimmer last night I hope it was the right decision i'm still running GFO and my homemade scrubber thats been running a bout 5 weeks now I had a really bad algae outbreak but its looking better now was dosing vodka and I stopped that about the time I started the scrubber I just have a few algae strings still hanging around any advice very much appreciated thanx

Lets bring this question into the main basics thread, but IMHO we will all need some more information... pictures of your scrubber, description of your tank... etc before anyone can give you a thumbs up

[sivert55]

My ATS growth is usually brown and slimy.
Too much light?

[srusso]

Originally Posted by sivert55

My ATS growth is usually brown and slimy.
Too much light?

We would need to see a picture to be sure, brown growth usually means a lack of lighting... In relation to food and real-estate.

[wayne44]

ok plugged skimmer back in guess i'll see about running it on a timer my scrubber is a quiet one 1200 pump with 1/2" pvc running off of it with a 4"x5" screen with 23watt CFL's one on each side 20# liverock in sump with scrubber running lights 9hrs on 15hrs off on scrubber running high capacity GFO in a reactor my skimmer is a SWC200 my tank is a 55 gal Oceanic my sump is a 50 gal rubbermaid lighting over my tank is T5's

[srusso]

Originally Posted by wayne44

ok plugged skimmer back in guess i'll see about running it on a timer my scrubber is a quiet one 1200 pump with 1/2" pvc running off of it with a 4"x5" screen with 23watt CFL's one on each side 20# liverock in sump with scrubber running lights 9hrs on 15hrs off on scrubber running high capacity GFO in a reactor my skimmer is a SWC200 my tank is a 55 gal Oceanic my sump is a 50 gal rubbermaid lighting over my tank is T5's

I am not saying you have to change what you have done, it was really just a disclaimer... How has the harvests been? Are you getting good growth? You have pictures of your growth?

[wayne44]

it grows its not thick growth dont have any pics but it is green algae i've had this aquarium up for about 12 years I guess and i've never had a problem with algae as bad as it has been here lately hopefully it will soon pass just hope I dont lose my corals in the process

[el aguila]

Well I finally got some Hong Kong drivers that work. I have been running a couple of weeks 100 1W LEDs on one side and 50 on the other side of a heat sink that measures 13 1/2" x 11 1/2". I have only cleaned the screen once since installation (ready to clean again today) and the 100 LED side had a nice thick layer of dark algae with the 50 LED side hardly having any.

I'm going to take the 50 side and increase the number by 50 - 75 as soon as I can find time which is in short supply this weekend.


2 fixtures before mounting




50 fired up




100 fired up




installed in scubber - I probably need to do something with the color of the picture because you just see white rather than red when looking into the scubber.

[Floyd R Turbo]

best DIY LED array I've seen so far

[JohnnyB in SD]

Originally Posted by el aguila

Well I finally got some Hong Kong drivers that work. I have been running a couple of weeks 100 1W LEDs on one side and 50 on the other side of a heat sink that measures 13 1/2" x 11 1/2". I have only cleaned the screen once since installation (ready to clean again today) and the 100 LED side had a nice thick layer of dark algae with the 50 LED side hardly having any.

I have been thinking of going this route of 1w LEDs at about 1 per sq in, as opposed to 3watters spread out and distanced from the screen.
It'd be real nice if you could post a pic of your screen when you go to clean it?

[salty joe]

Nice work el aguila. How far from the screen (not the enclosure) are the LEDs?