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Old 11/11/2004, 09:39 PM   #101
BeanAnimal
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AGM, SLA or WET CELL batteries charge at a higher current and voltage than GEL CELLS. GELS can be seriously damaged if charged on a system desigen for SLA or WET cells.

GELS are old technology and have beem far surpassed by AGM (SLA, SVLA) type batteries. Better life span and better charge/discharge characteristics.

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Old 11/12/2004, 02:36 PM   #102
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These are the batteries I was talking about. The ones on the right are deep cycle.

http://www.1st-optima-batteries.com/


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Old 11/18/2004, 07:39 AM   #103
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Does anyone know the difference between a step sine wave and a PWM sine wave? My old Tripp Line inverter uses a step sine, and the newer models use PWM. Is PWM just a new word for the same thing?


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Old 11/18/2004, 09:13 AM   #104
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PWM stand for pulse width modulation.

It tells you nothing about the shape of the sine wave...just how it is created. A step sine wave refers to the shape... which is not good for motors.


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Old 11/18/2004, 09:15 AM   #105
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musics:

Those ARE NOT gels cells. They optima units are sealed leads with glass substrate or paste type acid. Exactly for the reasons I stated above.

GEL cells are old technology and pretty much garbage.

Bean


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Old 11/18/2004, 10:14 AM   #106
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So is the PWM better for motors or is it the same thing? When I called Tripp Line, the woman I spoke with said it was basically the same thing. I kinda doubted her expertise however, so thats why I am asking here. I would but a new PWM inverter If I knew it would work better for my pump, but I don't want to throw my money away on basically the same piece of equipment


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Old 11/18/2004, 12:14 PM   #107
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You don't want to use a modified sine wave, square wave, or step wave inverter to run a motor. You want to use a "true sine wave" or "pure sine wave" inverter.

PWM is the technology used to create any of the above.

The term PWM sine wave inverter simply refers to the technology that creates the output... .not the shape of the waveform

So there is no answer to your question. You need more information about the output of the PWM inverter. Many true sine wave units use PWM. However that does not mean that all PWM units put out a true sinewave.

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Old 12/10/2004, 11:31 AM   #108
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I am getting ready to build this UPS. I think it is the best one that I have found. Could anyone help me out with the wiring for this Relay?

Thanks for the help




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Old 12/10/2004, 11:42 AM   #109
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Pin 1 is connected to pin 4 when the relay is not energized (normally closed)
Pin 1 is connected to pin 3 when the relay is energized (normally open)
Pin 6 is connected to pin 5 when the relay is not energized (normally closed)
Pin 6 is connected to pin 7 when the relay is energized (normally open)
Pin 11 is connected to pin 8 when the relay is not energized (normally closed)
Pin 11 is connected to pin 9 when the relay is energized (normally open)

Pins 2 and 10 are connected to the coil - how you energize the relay to switch from normally open to normally closed.

Sound right?


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Old 12/10/2004, 11:57 AM   #110
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Is one side neutral and the other side positive? Does it matter?


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Old 12/10/2004, 12:16 PM   #111
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I am getting ready to build this UPS. I think it is the best one that I have found. Could anyone help me out with the wiring for this Relay?

Thanks for the help




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Old 12/10/2004, 12:26 PM   #112
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I don't want to be a nay sayer, but I want to mention that you should be extremely care when doing you own design and build on electrical devices. It is great to do and I do it all the time. This is somthing to thing about, most of the commeercial electric devices that are purchased are UL listed ie they are tested by an indepant lab for the use that they are designed for, the lab then says it is ok for the use they tested it for, if you are using it in its intended use and it failes the company is liable, with electricity fire can be started very easly as some have found out. My point here is if you build somthing and use and it fails and a fire burns your house down and they find out that a home made piece of equipment caused the fire they might not honor the insuance policy. Agian I dont want to spoil the jun in DIY but please be careful it doent take alot to cause a fire, just be safe and do like most of you are test your design and retest it.


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Old 12/10/2004, 01:56 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alpha179
Is one side neutral and the other side positive? Does it matter?
One side of what, the coil?


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Old 12/10/2004, 04:54 PM   #114
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I figured that the coil would be "hot" on 1 side and "neutral" on the other. What I meant was, do I wire the one side of the Relay "hot" and the other side "neutral"? Or as long as each pair has 1 hot and 1 neutral, it doesn't matter which wire is where.

Quote:
Pin 1 is connected to pin 4 when the relay is not energized (normally closed)
Pin 1 is connected to pin 3 when the relay is energized (normally open)
Pin 6 is connected to pin 5 when the relay is not energized (normally closed)
Pin 6 is connected to pin 7 when the relay is energized (normally open)
Pin 11 is connected to pin 8 when the relay is not energized (normally closed)
Pin 11 is connected to pin 9 when the relay is energized (normally open)

Pins 2 and 10 are connected to the coil - how you energize the relay to switch from normally open to normally closed.
So if Pin 2 is hot then Pins 1, 3, and 4 would be hot and 8, 9, 10, and 11 would be neutral.

Also, when the Inverter switch is connected, (in series), does this mean that the "input" or "output" wire on the switch is spliced and 1 side is wired to Pin 6 and the other side to Pin 5?

I should remember this, but it has been 20+ years since I have done any of this.





Last edited by Alpha179; 12/10/2004 at 05:20 PM.
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Old 12/13/2004, 09:26 AM   #115
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The wires connected to pins 2 and 10 do not connect through to any other pins, they are used only to turn the relay "on" or "off" - switching between normally closed and normally open positions.

When the relay is "off", meaning no power is applied to the coil, pins 1 & 4, 6 & 5, 11 & 8 are connected.
When the relay is "on", meaning power is applied to the coil, pins 1 & 3, 6 & 7, 11 & 9 are connected.

What you connect to pins 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11 is up to you.
As an example, what you could do is connect pin 1 to the neutral wire of a pump, then connect pin 3 to the neutral wire of a cord connected to your house power, and connect pin 4 to the neutral wire coming out of your power inverter.
Thus, when you have power at your house, pins 1 and 3 are connected meaning your pump get's it's power from the house.
When the power goes out, pins 1 and 4 are connected so the pump gets it's power from your power inverter.
You could do similar for the hot wire, etc.

You have the right idea for wiring the Inverter switch.
Cut one of the wires on the switch, then connect a new wire from one end of that cut wire to pin 5 or 6, and another wire from the other end of the cut wire to the other pin.
This will turn the inverter on when your power goes out.

As mtndavid said, if you are not 100% comfortable doing this and you don't think you have a full grasp of the wiring, you are better off not attempting it because incorrect wiring could be quite harmfull...


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Old 12/16/2004, 12:36 AM   #116
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Thanks for confirming my wiring. I figured that I had the correct idea, but wanted to be sure before I actually wired this and applied power.

This DIY project rocks. I just finished wiring it up and set it up on my current tank. I added a Green LED for when it is running on house power and a Yellow LED for battery power. I tested it and it gave me 8.2 hours running both main pumps, 2 RIO 2700s for water flow, and the RIO 600 that runs the protein skimmer.

I have all kinds of ideas for this backup system (alarm backup, emergency lighting etc.) Thanks again.

Alpha179


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Old 12/16/2004, 07:09 AM   #117
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You're welcome.
There's nothing more satisfying than seeing your own handywork in action.


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Old 02/18/2006, 04:30 AM   #118
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Unhappy

Does anyone still have a copy of this project pic's and details and wiring?
I click on the links and the pic,s showing how to's and this will not come up for me.


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Old 02/18/2006, 04:31 AM   #119
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Unhappy

Does anyone still have a copy of this project pic's and details and wiring?
I click on the links and the pic,s showing how to's and this will not come up for me.


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Old 02/18/2006, 04:31 AM   #120
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Unhappy

Does anyone still have a copy of this project pic's and details and wiring?
I click on the links and the pic,s showing how to's and this will not come up for me.


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Old 02/18/2006, 05:44 AM   #121
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Dave is still around on RC, but I'm not sure if he is watching this thread anymore. I would PM him and see if he still has the old shots. He is a good guy and a good reefer as well. He pitches in more than his fair share in this hobby, and I'm sure he would be glad to help you if he can.


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Old 02/18/2006, 08:01 AM   #122
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Thanks, Musicmaker! How can I fail to respond to an intro like that?

I had been hoping this thread would eventually fade out, as in hind sight, I probably shouldn't have posted a project with the inherent risks of messing with line AC...

I finally did some digging in the archives to find the original pictures since the ISP links died. Here is a re-post with the original context.

"The main unit is in the basement, with only an outlet box in the cabinet."



"This outlet has a cord that plugs into the main GFI, and routes power through 2 legs of 4 conductor wire down to the UPS. Either house current is sent back up, or it is switched over to inverter power."



"Here's a top view of the backup"



"The heart of the system is a transfer switch that consists of a relay normally energized with house power, and when that is absent, it turns on the 300w AC power inverter, and sends that power back up to the outlet."



"There are a few other bells in there, like a test switch, audible alarm, and indicator lights."


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Old 02/18/2006, 09:32 AM   #123
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Thanks Dave. I started at the beginning of this thread 15-20 minutes ago, and had to come to the every end to finally see what the project looked like, as all the pictures were gone. Very nice - a real professional looking job !!!

Couple of questions - since I have your attention. Where did you get the inverter, and could you also post the schematics ?

Thanks again, I am looking forward to getting back to using a soldering iron again after some 30 years ...


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Old 02/18/2006, 10:13 AM   #124
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I got my inverter at either Lowes or Home Depot. Can't remember for sure.


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Old 02/18/2006, 10:45 AM   #125
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Maybe not so ~4 yrs ago, but Walmart or Harborfreight has better prices on inverters these days... 8-)


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