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Unread 07/15/2018, 03:49 PM   #1
02tts
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Having issue with Alkalinity

So this one escapes me and I’ve read many articles on it but I can’t seem to keep it where it needs to be.

I dose all daily (FOWLR - minus any fish right now) using a Neptune dos system. I have tested the system and it works as it should. No air in the line so it’s putting in why I tell it to.

Yesterday I was at 5.4 so I dosed another 20ml and today I’m down to 5.2...again, fish only with live rocks and right now I have no fish.

Calcium is at 420
Mag is at 1350

What am I doing wrong....do I need to dose higher or am I dozing too much all and no calcium? Right now I have been been dosing calcium as it’s been ok reading wise.

Pls help.


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Unread 07/15/2018, 04:13 PM   #2
bertoni
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I suspect that you just need to dose more. How big is the tank? My 29g soft coral systems went through about 40 ml per day of the DIY 2-part due to coralline growth. There might be some precipitation, though. Any signs of white or tannish buildups on surfaces?


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Unread 07/15/2018, 05:01 PM   #3
02tts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bertoni View Post
I suspect that you just need to dose more. How big is the tank? My 29g soft coral systems went through about 40 ml per day of the DIY 2-part due to coralline growth. There might be some precipitation, though. Any signs of white or tannish buildups on surfaces?


No signs of any white buildup anywhere. I was dosing 20, I dosed 40 yesterday and it went down. But again, I’m not doing calcium as it’s at 420.

So, do you think I should just add more?

It’s 500 gallons.

No fish
Rocks only/sand


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Unread 07/15/2018, 05:16 PM   #4
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This calculator might help:

http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html

I get something like 250 ml to raise the alkalinity by 1 dKH, if you are dosing the DIY 2-part, assuming about 350g of actual water volume. I might try half of that first, to be very cautious, but you might not be able to detect the result with a kit. That's fine, though.


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Unread 07/15/2018, 05:32 PM   #5
02tts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bertoni View Post
This calculator might help:

http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html

I get something like 250 ml to raise the alkalinity by 1 dKH, if you are dosing the DIY 2-part, assuming about 350g of actual water volume. I might try half of that first, to be very cautious, but you might not be able to detect the result with a kit. That's fine, though.


I’m going to change dose to 100ml for next 24 hours and see what it does. I should see some sort of increase, since I’m measuring using Hanna digital I should be able to see it.


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Unread 07/15/2018, 05:40 PM   #6
bertoni
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The consumption rate might be high enough that a slow dose could be hard to detect. I'd just keep that in mind. Making changes slowly is a good way to manage risk, though.


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Unread 07/15/2018, 05:41 PM   #7
02tts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bertoni View Post
The consumption rate might be high enough that a slow dose could be hard to detect. I'd just keep that in mind. Making changes slowly is a good way to manage risk, though.


I just don’t get how live rock and sand, as there is nothing in the tank, can be consuming that much.


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Unread 07/15/2018, 10:07 PM   #8
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Hey 02tts,
I have experienced the exact same thing, I was struggling to keep my dKH above 7 and like you I don't know why because it was a fairly new tank and I didn't have much in the tank that should have been using much of anything, but it was all I could do to keep the alkalinity from dropping below 7. All I had at the time was a bunch of white rock, and a couple of fish and a couple of LPS corals. Calcium and Magnesium and everything else stayed constant with water changes. I too bought a DOS and the DDR containers because it was driving me nuts. Moral of the story... I still cant say for sure what was going on, but I suspect that the coraline algae was starting to take hold (an possibly the bacterial fauna was still changing) and it was using up a lot of the alkalinity, but not the other stuff. Once I dialed in the DOS, it totally settled down and I was no longer getting swings. My advice is that I would totally do what bertoni has suggested... manual dose a large volume over a short period to raise your dKH to a reasonable level... Honestly I would say anything over 7.5 in this case. then use your dose to dial in the amount required to maintain that level... or slowly raise it a bit more if you want to try.
don't sweat the numbers too much.
good luck


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Unread 07/16/2018, 09:29 AM   #9
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I suspect that the rock is acting as a precipitation site. Sand can do that, too. The rate of such precipitation should drop over time as the surfaces become coated with bacteria and algae. I should have said that earlier. Sigh.


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Unread 07/16/2018, 09:41 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bertoni View Post
I suspect that the rock is acting as a precipitation site. Sand can do that, too. The rate of such precipitation should drop over time as the surfaces become coated with bacteria and algae. I should have said that earlier. Sigh.


Ok so keep bringing it up safely 1dkh per day until I get to a happy medium of 7-10...and then assuming lower dose to maintain at that rate...am I correct?


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Unread 07/16/2018, 09:46 AM   #11
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what do you use to dose alkalinity?


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Unread 07/16/2018, 10:20 AM   #12
02tts
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what do you use to dose alkalinity?


ESV two part but I’m not currently dosing the calcium part as calcium is just fine and if I dose it’s going to precipitate all over the sump. I suspect at some point it will start to drop as the alk goes up...I’m just in shock if you would that live rock and sand can eat up that much alk.


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Unread 07/16/2018, 01:48 PM   #13
02tts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopapotamus View Post
Hey 02tts,
I have experienced the exact same thing, I was struggling to keep my dKH above 7 and like you I don't know why because it was a fairly new tank and I didn't have much in the tank that should have been using much of anything, but it was all I could do to keep the alkalinity from dropping below 7. All I had at the time was a bunch of white rock, and a couple of fish and a couple of LPS corals. Calcium and Magnesium and everything else stayed constant with water changes. I too bought a DOS and the DDR containers because it was driving me nuts. Moral of the story... I still cant say for sure what was going on, but I suspect that the coraline algae was starting to take hold (an possibly the bacterial fauna was still changing) and it was using up a lot of the alkalinity, but not the other stuff. Once I dialed in the DOS, it totally settled down and I was no longer getting swings. My advice is that I would totally do what bertoni has suggested... manual dose a large volume over a short period to raise your dKH to a reasonable level... Honestly I would say anything over 7.5 in this case. then use your dose to dial in the amount required to maintain that level... or slowly raise it a bit more if you want to try.
don't sweat the numbers too much.
good luck


Interesting, ok thank you for the info.


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Unread 07/16/2018, 10:12 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02tts View Post
Ok so keep bringing it up safely 1dkh per day until I get to a happy medium of 7-10...and then assuming lower dose to maintain at that rate...am I correct?
That should be fine.


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Unread 07/24/2018, 04:10 PM   #15
02tts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bertoni View Post
That should be fine.


I’m having a hell of a time keeping these values. Maybe you can help me out.

So after feeding it 350ml per day for 3-4 days I’m finally at 7dkh and 400, however; last 24 hours I lowered the dose to 200ml and now today when I measured here are my values:

6.1dkh
380 calcium

Yesterday I was at:

7dkh
400 calcium

What’s gives...what am I doing wrong...


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Unread 07/24/2018, 05:41 PM   #16
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How accurate is your test??? Reagents expired???
Just a thought. Take a sample to your LFS and get a second opinion.


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Unread 07/24/2018, 06:06 PM   #17
02tts
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Quote:
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How accurate is your test??? Reagents expired???

Just a thought. Take a sample to your LFS and get a second opinion.


No need. Tests are accurate. They are Hannah digital and the reagent is new. The readings are accurate, I just don’t get what’s happening.


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Unread 07/24/2018, 06:23 PM   #18
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I posted a similar problem last week, except that it was the calcium that wouldn't climb above 370, regardless of how much I dosed. At first I questioned the concentration of the ESV 2 part, but then I tested the water I get from my LFS and it was around 320.

I'm using new Salifert test kits, but have the Hanna checkers coming this week to verify.


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Unread 07/24/2018, 06:54 PM   #19
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Even though the Hanna checkers are supposed to be the best, I find them just as inaccurate as any other.

Example, checking CA with Hanna, got 468, tested again 454. Now I know what my CA is....it will be between 410 and 420.....I know my consumption rate for years....

So I tested one more time with my backup Salifert kit....420....

I have a thinking...if it don't make sense...it isn't true...


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Unread 07/24/2018, 09:46 PM   #20
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200 ml is a fairly small dose for that size tank. I get 160 ml to raise the dKH by 1, assuming 350g of actual water volume and ESV B-Ionic for the supplement. My tanks could go through 4 dKH per day. Are there any signs of buildups on heaters or inside pumps, or on tank walls? Do you have a good water volume estimate?


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Unread 07/24/2018, 11:06 PM   #21
02tts
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Quote:
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200 ml is a fairly small dose for that size tank. I get 160 ml to raise the dKH by 1, assuming 350g of actual water volume and ESV B-Ionic for the supplement. My tanks could go through 4 dKH per day. Are there any signs of buildups on heaters or inside pumps, or on tank walls? Do you have a good water volume estimate?


No buildup anywhere. Tank volume is 500-510g


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Unread 07/24/2018, 11:19 PM   #22
bertoni
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If there's 500g of water in the tank, 200 ml definitely is a fairly small dose. Coralline could consume a lot more than that per day, all on its own, in my experience.


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Unread 07/25/2018, 03:42 AM   #23
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Assuming your water volume is correct, to raise your DKH by 1 you would need 965ML of supplement.



Are you using a reef calc at all to figure out your dose, or just blindly dosing and testing?


Reef Calculator



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Unread 07/25/2018, 09:07 AM   #24
02tts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homer1475 View Post
Assuming your water volume is correct, to raise your DKH by 1 you would need 965ML of supplement.



Are you using a reef calc at all to figure out your dose, or just blindly dosing and testing?


Reef Calculator


I didn’t want to raise too much at once so I was using 350ml. How much should I dose calcium wise.


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Unread 07/25/2018, 02:25 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homer1475 View Post
Assuming your water volume is correct, to raise your DKH by 1 you would need 965ML of supplement.

Are you using a reef calc at all to figure out your dose, or just blindly dosing and testing?

Reef Calculator
So I get the same (965ml)
You can also try using Randys baked baking soda. Its cheap so wont break the bank. It should not be much different than what you are using. After baking and mixing it with water I added 250ml in my 600 gallon system over 1 day (by hand no doser) and got a raise of .5 ( I have some corals and the tank was new)
Dropped that down to 200ml every 4 days until I got my 1.5 increase.

Just a thought


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