Karim's 1500gal dream reef

[ericarenee]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

really appreciate any feedback or advice on this construction

Lots going on here.. I will check this out tomorrow . I am about to start a similar sun room project but its a stand alone geeen house.. .

[karimwassef]

great. thanks. I'm also considering opening up the covered roof area to create a vented attic space for the surge and refugium. I'm trying to shrink the aquarium room and create a larger living area, so going vertical could solve that.

also considering widening the tank to reduce the shadow effect created by the center separator I'm using to create the circulating current flows.

[gregkn73]

Very nice project. Seeing your last drawings, I thing that you are not going to spend a lot of time in your greenhouse room watching your reef, so I will propose a different "approach"! View your reef through one screen only, from your living room, move everything -refugium, surge makers, sump ....- in the greenhouse, except electrical boards and controllers. Since your greenhouse will be just.....greenhouse, don't care and spend a lot of money , to humidity and temperature control in there, focus just on temperature control of your reef, and enjoy it, from your comfort of your living room, which will be totally separated from the greenhouse.

[karimwassef]

?? And how do I get the direct sunlight (and fresh wind blowing) into my living room?

Also, the wife is a tank hater. The greenhouse is my space to create without disrupting the tranquility of her space (rest of the house). So I will be spending lots of time there.

[jccaclimber]

Ok, this has major TLDR risk, but having just read this entire thread here goes:

Ok, I finally read through this. I did not read all of the accessory threads, although I am curious: Do you see different (mass or species) of algae growth on the blue or red side of your ATS, assuming it is still running. I didn't see anything about replacing the side that fell in to the water.

I like the idea of the drop-off display being a full tank and using that space inside. I would expect this also prevents an odd stress distribution and stress riser issue at the inside corner in the dropoff, although at the cost of more total pressure loading on the sides. I have only done basic glass bracing repairs to tanks, but I have seen a few tanks with dissimilar material walls. The acrylic top on glass tank eventually delaminated. I have seen several PVC bottoms with glass walls. They all have a notch the glass sits in and/or a steel trim piece that retains the glass at that joint (AGE). This makes the glass and adhesive behave much like the window/gasket you see in other systems. If you are building yourself though I'm surprised the material cost is a big driver. I can see the benefit in being able to more easily drill a non-glass material. As an example a 4x8 sheet of 3/4" plate glass is ~$800. Two of those is significant, but that doesn't strike me as a dealbreaker in this case. I'm not sure how that cost changes as you go to thicker glass or a larger width so I may be off.

Are you planning to make part of the "shelf" a permanent piece of installed glass to act as a cross brace? (Edit, found that on page 2, I like it).

I'm actually curious about the south facing portion. I need to take my PAR meter outside in the shade some time, but would north facing have better summer/winter balance, or is sun intensity in the winter low enough that you will need a lot of supplementation either way?

I didn't check your numbers on the drains, but I assume you considered fouling and bends. A world smaller than a 2" drain, but my emergency kicked in recently when a 1" drain clogged. A pair of small hermits (cerith shells) got in to the drain pipe. This wasn't that big a deal, but they managed to get stuck on each other in an elbow. Also not that big a deal (still well upstream of the restrictor valve on that drain), except a quarter sheet of nori was torn loose and escaped down the drain. All in all they managed to bring a 1" drain to a couple drops per second flow. One slight nudge and the whole thing came loose and went back to its typical flow rate. I'm still not sure how the hermits managed to hang on in there, but they survived the experience so they must not have been there long.

Post 70, I disagree that your 3' vertical drop will prevent trapped air in the horizontal run. It might eventually clear the bubble, but could be delayed. Once more 1" lines in my case, but I've had a slow start of an emergency drain due to a 3' horizontal run after a 28" vertical drop. Admittedly the outlet was underwater, but only by a couple inches. The bubble would clear, but sometimes took 30 seconds to do so. This was not sufficient to prevent a tank overflow if the other drain clogged and the return was at full flow. I think you can fix this by sloping the drain lines.

Minor note, I really prefer to bend all of my rigid PVC rather than use elbow fittings whenever possible. I think it decreases the odds of clogs, cuts down flow loss, and looks a bit nicer.

I really like the solar fuge. I've been trying to figure out how to do that at my house and couldn't come up with a solution I would accept. I could run through the wall to the outside, but it's maybe 6' to the fence and another 6' to the neighbor's house, and it's north facing. I've thought about buried in the back yard, but I'm not to that point yet.

Post 75: You should be able to calculate flow/pressure drop to decide if you need a booster pump. I would advise a redundant return (or redundant return pump, as appropriate) since it is open. Alternatively, set your overflow levels so that even if it goes stagnant it never floods/overflows. This is probably a safer solution.

Post 77: I don't think leaving the powerheads on partial flow all the time will prevent fouling. It will cut down on it, but stuff grows everywhere, even inside return lines. What sort of "partial" flow do you have in mind?

In your cryptic zone you mention removable egg-crate as a barrier, and also that you are ok with the the risk of something getting stuck. I agree that access windows are likely an unacceptable liability. I would think that a strong "out only" flow through those areas (mode 11?) would help push things to the front where they would be *slightly* more accessible. Even if it isn't permanently installed, it doesn't seem like removing the egg crate blocking the dark zone is going to be practical once the display is established. Perhaps hinge the egg crate so that it can be swung up/in to allow an object out without hitting things living in the drop-off portion?


Post 87: While I like the idea, I think the odds of finding another aquarist looking for your house at just the right time will significantly cut down on your audience. Around here it seems like houses sell in a week, and I can't think of anyone (other than maybe you) who is both that in to fish and also looking for a house right now. Not to mention most people on that level would want to design the system to their own specifications. This may be less of a loss than parting out, but seems like a risk. The same applies to trying to rent the garage back. Odds are better, but the question is: more of a loss to sale price/renting back, or more of a loss in system cost? To my surprise when we sold our last house ever realtor that we considered made it very clear that they felt any aquarium, even a fully contained, maintained and still running display, was likely a detriment to the sale price. The same was true of any other large item that wasn't a couch or new tv, or other very common furniture item.

I'll have a 570 going up some time in the next few months so I'll have a lot of space available if timing lines up, but moving that much stuff into a new system has its own risks. I agree that buying your next house first then having a move day seems the safest option if finances allow.

Post 96: If you use wet pads make sure RO is used. Otherwise you get impressive calcium buildup in the pads in a very short period of time. Also, you would need to isolate that air from the rest of the house and accept a humid fish room. A lot of the fish stores here in Dallas have pretty impressive rust issues through the building. You don't want this to be you. Otherwise you'll be paying to pull that water out of the air instead of just cooling the air. Wet pads work well when you have abundant dry air available, and/or no moisture issue at the outlet. I'm not sure that is true for much of the year here in Dallas. The energy balance still needs to be maintained.

The Tidal Gardens guys have a different climate, but still all of the greenhouse heating/cooling issues. It's been a while since I've read them, but there threads are here:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...5&pagenumber=1
and here:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1709957

I wonder how much IR you can block/reflect while still maintaining good PAR/spectrum? I wonder if colored tinting on your sunroom windows would help?

Post 142: Screeching speed during the day quiet at night is a problem if you spend a lot of time in that room on weekends. Will you put up with the noise in those cases?

I'm curious if double (or triple) pane glass and supplemental LED's are a higher or lower long term cost than the heating, cooling, and air drying. I would run those estimates if you haven't yet.

I assume you will have a backup generator in case the power cuts during the day?

AC motors (and fans) are speed controllable with a VFD, I do it all the time on my Bridgeport mill. The motor on the mill wasn't designed for inverter use it so I try to keep it at ± 50% of nominal speed but have seen other people go as far as -75% to +100% from rated speed with the addition of a small cooling fan.

Random thought on cooling: Would your chiller be significantly more efficient if the condensing coils were submerged in cool water? I would think a cooling loop, or even some RO water trickling over their cooling coil (think industrial chiller tower) would be a benefit. Since yours is outside the increased humidity of the outlet air is a non-issue.

I'm not convinced that it is more effective than a pipe network, but what about burying an IBC tote? Tons of volume (ie thermal capacitance) and a bit of surface area? Probably not as cost/area efficient as PVC piping, but reasonably durable and very easy to find at a low cost here in Dallas. EDIT: Looks like posts 196/197 head in this direction. Are you sure you want your cooling loop to be salt water? Going with a freshwater cooling loop and then a titanium heat exchanger might be a higher operating cost, but less contamination risk and easier to adjust if something goes south.

Post 192: Some areas have code issues about drains in exterior areas. A friend in high school who's parents washed their car weekly year round in Ohio were very disappointed that code prevented a floor drain in the garage in their new house. Maybe if you show the builder that it will be inside, or something else you could get around it. Alternatively convince him it's a giant conduit for you to route aquarium hoses through later, and make sure it terminates inside near an existing drain/vent. You'll need to bust up a slab to connect it later, but at least you'll have piping under the new slab section. This assumes the drain you want will be to code once you have the sunroom up. I don't know if that is the case.

Post 198: Unless you can get 200 gallon totes cheaply, see my comment about IBC totes (275 and 330 gallon I think) being very inexpensive.

One last thought: Your current system seems to have a huge amount of evaporation. I can understand aesthetic issues with not having a lid on the display, but why not make all of the sumps airtight and insulated?

[karimwassef]

Wow thanks. I don't remember all those posts myself so I'll have to dig through. Since you're in Dallas, would you like to participate? I need volunteers

I'll need some time to digest. Appreciate all the thoughtful feedback. I have a window before the slab is poured so this is the best time to make critical design changes.

[jccaclimber]

If I'm not doing something else at the time I'm happy to help. I have some of the usual tools (diamond hole saws, etc) that you're free to borrow. The Bridgeport is also available for use, but at >2000 lbs without the electrical cabinet you'll have to come to my garage if it is needed.

[jestronix]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

>>>The outdoor algae scrubber idea is really cool. Evaporation may be a serious consideration, but it sounds like you could use the evaporative cooling anyway.<<<

Yup. That's what I was thinking too. This idea has morphed several times, but with a sunlit reef, it just makes sense to use sunlight to grow the refugium/scrubber.

The growth is nuts ! My scrubber is outdoors and needs cleaning weekly, I do run a cfl over it as well for night growing, which in turn introduces some extra bug protein to the tank but it really shows off of powerful the sun is at growing compared to anything artificial. Maybe plasma gets close.

[jestronix]

Any updates , this is an insane build and something I oneday would like to do on a scale like this

[karimwassef]

We put in an offer for the new home yesterday and got rejected
So starting to scout a new location and floor plan for the house.

Unfortunately, a tank this big creates its own requirements for the house its attached to

From a design point of view, there have been several changes. I'll post those soon.

The biggest change is that I may have to build the greenhouse myself given the cost of the house, lot and a greenhouse builder.

I'll need to find a GC to hire the workers I can't find myself...

[karimwassef]

ok... answering Danny's feedback:

Originally Posted by jccaclimber

I'm actually curious about the south facing portion. I need to take my PAR meter outside in the shade some time, but would north facing have better summer/winter balance, or is sun intensity in the winter low enough that you will need a lot of supplementation either way?

Most greenhouses are very inefficient. To maximize light and minimize loss (heat in winter, cooling in summer), the most efficient designs have the face glass facing south with most of the light coming from east and west. The north should be insulated (no windows or glass) since it's the highest leakage path with no benefit. This is in the northern hemisphere anyway.

Originally Posted by jccaclimber

I didn't check your numbers on the drains, but I assume you considered fouling and bends. A world smaller than a 2" drain, but my emergency kicked in recently when a 1" drain clogged. A pair of small hermits (cerith shells) got in to the drain pipe. This wasn't that big a deal, but they managed to get stuck on each other in an elbow. Also not that big a deal (still well upstream of the restrictor valve on that drain), except a quarter sheet of nori was torn loose and escaped down the drain. All in all they managed to bring a 1" drain to a couple drops per second flow. One slight nudge and the whole thing came loose and went back to its typical flow rate. I'm still not sure how the hermits managed to hang on in there, but they survived the experience so they must not have been there long.

Yes, I have this problem now too which is why I have 4 drains... primary, secondary, emergency and actuated. I plan on having a raised cover to limit algae growth there. I'm also planning on eggcrate or nylon "rabbit" fencing to minimize "adventure seeking" animals from getting stuck or sucked.

Originally Posted by jccaclimber

Post 70, I disagree that your 3' vertical drop will prevent trapped air in the horizontal run. It might eventually clear the bubble, but could be delayed. Once more 1" lines in my case, but I've had a slow start of an emergency drain due to a 3' horizontal run after a 28" vertical drop. Admittedly the outlet was underwater, but only by a couple inches. The bubble would clear, but sometimes took 30 seconds to do so. This was not sufficient to prevent a tank overflow if the other drain clogged and the return was at full flow. I think you can fix this by sloping the drain lines.

Minor note, I really prefer to bend all of my rigid PVC rather than use elbow fittings whenever possible. I think it decreases the odds of clogs, cuts down flow loss, and looks a bit nicer.

I agree. I've redesigned the overflow and brought the emergency to within only 1 foot horizontal. It's the closest line now. I've also pulled back the entire overflow by 2 feet towards the back. I'll also have level sensors so in case the emergency fails, all pumps and surges stop filling the tank until it clears. I don't like active backups, but it's one more level of safety.

Originally Posted by jccaclimber

I really like the solar fuge. I've been trying to figure out how to do that at my house and couldn't come up with a solution I would accept. I could run through the wall to the outside, but it's maybe 6' to the fence and another 6' to the neighbor's house, and it's north facing. I've thought about buried in the back yard, but I'm not to that point yet.

If you're ok getting light only part of the day, then east or west facing will work too. Also, if you have a large enough back yard, you can place it in the middle of an open space and get the sunlight mid-day until the shadow from your house covers it... if you have the option, get on the roof! I've always thought that a rooftop fuge is the ultimate. It can even be a completely sealed system made of acrylic with an inlet, outlet and then a large thin and flat rectangle acrylic box with a medium for the algae to grow on.

Originally Posted by jccaclimber

Post 75: You should be able to calculate flow/pressure drop to decide if you need a booster pump. I would advise a redundant return (or redundant return pump, as appropriate) since it is open. Alternatively, set your overflow levels so that even if it goes stagnant it never floods/overflows. This is probably a safer solution.

Good idea. I like the redundancy of a forced return in case the normal gravity return is clogged or stuck,

Originally Posted by jccaclimber

Post 77: I don't think leaving the powerheads on partial flow all the time will prevent fouling. It will cut down on it, but stuff grows everywhere, even inside return lines. What sort of "partial" flow do you have in mind?

Really just a trickle is enough. I don't like water sitting in pipes for any extended period of time without moving. If the surge is "off", it should release some water every once in a while to refresh.

Originally Posted by jccaclimber

In your cryptic zone you mention removable egg-crate as a barrier, and also that you are ok with the the risk of something getting stuck. I agree that access windows are likely an unacceptable liability. I would think that a strong "out only" flow through those areas (mode 11?) would help push things to the front where they would be *slightly* more accessible. Even if it isn't permanently installed, it doesn't seem like removing the egg crate blocking the dark zone is going to be practical once the display is established. Perhaps hinge the egg crate so that it can be swung up/in to allow an object out without hitting things living in the drop-off portion?

The only option is to have a slotted approach here, I think. The eggcrate needs to be like a dungeon gate that goes up and down in a groove or slot so I can always open it for emergencies and flush it out with the powerheads. A-la the Rancor-killing gate at Jabba's palace in Star Wars.

Originally Posted by jccaclimber

Post 87: While I like the idea, I think the odds of finding another aquarist looking for your house at just the right time will significantly cut down on your audience. Around here it seems like houses sell in a week, and I can't think of anyone (other than maybe you) who is both that in to fish and also looking for a house right now. Not to mention most people on that level would want to design the system to their own specifications. This may be less of a loss than parting out, but seems like a risk. The same applies to trying to rent the garage back. Odds are better, but the question is: more of a loss to sale price/renting back, or more of a loss in system cost? To my surprise when we sold our last house ever realtor that we considered made it very clear that they felt any aquarium, even a fully contained, maintained and still running display, was likely a detriment to the sale price. The same was true of any other large item that wasn't a couch or new tv, or other very common furniture item.

We're going to offer it with the house and a contract from a local pet store to maintain. If they want it out, I'll be creating a mock-system in my dad's house to experiment with flow.. I can keep them there why I tear the old tank down and until I build the new one.

Originally Posted by jccaclimber

I'll have a 570 going up some time in the next few months so I'll have a lot of space available if timing lines up, but moving that much stuff into a new system has its own risks. I agree that buying your next house first then having a move day seems the safest option if finances allow.

Yup! Let's give it a go...

Originally Posted by jccaclimber

Post 96: If you use wet pads make sure RO is used. Otherwise you get impressive calcium buildup in the pads in a very short period of time. Also, you would need to isolate that air from the rest of the house and accept a humid fish room. A lot of the fish stores here in Dallas have pretty impressive rust issues through the building. You don't want this to be you. Otherwise you'll be paying to pull that water out of the air instead of just cooling the air. Wet pads work well when you have abundant dry air available, and/or no moisture issue at the outlet. I'm not sure that is true for much of the year here in Dallas. The energy balance still needs to be maintained.

The Tidal Gardens guys have a different climate, but still all of the greenhouse heating/cooling issues. It's been a while since I've read them, but there threads are here:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...5&pagenumber=1
and here:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1709957

Yes. I think the humidity is too problematic and average humidity in Dallas is 50% so this won't work well. I'm looking at subterranean loop cooling as a more viable option.

Originally Posted by jccaclimber

I wonder how much IR you can block/reflect while still maintaining good PAR/spectrum? I wonder if colored tinting on your sunroom windows would help?

The different glasses have different properties. Some are especially designed for IR-limit without light limits.

Originally Posted by jccaclimber

Post 142: Screeching speed during the day quiet at night is a problem if you spend a lot of time in that room on weekends. Will you put up with the noise in those cases?

If I'm home, I'll likely open up the doors and turn the fans down. Having the main door south facing allows a lot of intake from that direction. Dallas wind always comes up from the south.

[QUOTE=jccaclimber;24978176] I'm curious if double (or triple) pane glass and supplemental LED's are a higher or lower long term cost than the heating, cooling, and air drying. I would run those estimates if you haven't yet.[/QOTE]

I'm basing this on the studies performed by aquaculture and other greenhouse scientists. Their conclusion is that direct sunlight is the most efficient energy source, even compared to LED and even with the extra cost of cooling and ventilation. They do this for a profit, so every penny counts there.

Originally Posted by jccaclimber

I assume you will have a backup generator in case the power cuts during the day?

Yes. But I'm also planning a battery wall - A-la-Elon Musk DIY

Originally Posted by jccaclimber

AC motors (and fans) are speed controllable with a VFD, I do it all the time on my Bridgeport mill. The motor on the mill wasn't designed for inverter use it so I try to keep it at ± 50% of nominal speed but have seen other people go as far as -75% to +100% from rated speed with the addition of a small cooling fan.

I'm actually trying to move to an all-DC system. I'd like to separate my tank from the grid and only use it to charge batteries. In addition to the safety benefits of running low voltage DC, it's more efficient based on my analysis thus far. .... if one more GFCI trips, I'm going to!!! ....

Originally Posted by jccaclimber

Random thought on cooling: Would your chiller be significantly more efficient if the condensing coils were submerged in cool water? I would think a cooling loop, or even some RO water trickling over their cooling coil (think industrial chiller tower) would be a benefit. Since yours is outside the increased humidity of the outlet air is a non-issue.

I keep my chiller in the shade, but the primary cooling mechanism is just running fresh cooler air through the hot condensing coils. If submerged, the liquid would need to cool down and evaporative cooling needs a lower humidity environment or a lot more air flow?

Originally Posted by jccaclimber

I'm not convinced that it is more effective than a pipe network, but what about burying an IBC tote? Tons of volume (ie thermal capacitance) and a bit of surface area? Probably not as cost/area efficient as PVC piping, but reasonably durable and very easy to find at a low cost here in Dallas. EDIT: Looks like posts 196/197 head in this direction. Are you sure you want your cooling loop to be salt water? Going with a freshwater cooling loop and then a titanium heat exchanger might be a higher operating cost, but less contamination risk and easier to adjust if something goes south.

The latest here is to run a titanium tube in a cistern underground and have the ability to flush it with chlorine or acid as needed for regular maintenance.

Originally Posted by jccaclimber

Post 192: Some areas have code issues about drains in exterior areas. A friend in high school who's parents washed their car weekly year round in Ohio were very disappointed that code prevented a floor drain in the garage in their new house. Maybe if you show the builder that it will be inside, or something else you could get around it. Alternatively convince him it's a giant conduit for you to route aquarium hoses through later, and make sure it terminates inside near an existing drain/vent. You'll need to bust up a slab to connect it later, but at least you'll have piping under the new slab section. This assumes the drain you want will be to code once you have the sunroom up. I don't know if that is the case.

Actually, it looks like the sunroom floor with be a customized slab anyway, so I'll have to tie that to the storm drain network eventually. I'll share more on this.

Originally Posted by jccaclimber

Post 198: Unless you can get 200 gallon totes cheaply, see my comment about IBC totes (275 and 330 gallon I think) being very inexpensive.

Actually, the rubbermaid totes are very cheap. Amazon will even deliver for free! Tractor supply has some nice options too, but I have to go pick those up.

Originally Posted by jccaclimber

One last thought: Your current system seems to have a huge amount of evaporation. I can understand aesthetic issues with not having a lid on the display, but why not make all of the sumps airtight and insulated?

I agree that the main sump should be covered, as should the surge container, but the surge-refugium section should be open to allow as much light in as possible.

Thanks for all your feedback and thoughtful advice...

Now - I've actually made a lot of changes in the last couple of weeks!!! Hopefully iterating towards the better solution.

[jccaclimber]

Hard to quote from above on my phone, but regarding the chiller:
You may not want the outlet submerged, but running a mist or trickle over it may help. I don't think this will ever make it worse. Even at 100% relative humidity it would be equal. Wet bulb temp is never above dry bulb temp. Relative humidity should also be slightly lower than ambient at the coils since they are heating the air.

[karimwassef]

ok. so based on talking to some tank builders and special thanks to Felix from Reef Savvy, I've made some changes...

First, The tank is now only 30" tall. That's 18" above the false floor and 12" below.

2. All the visible sides are going to be 3/4" Starphire. The bottom is 3/4" glass and the back is 1" glass.

3. The overflow is wider and a regular rectangle now. It's also pulled all the way back to reduce the run to the sump.

4. The portals to the space under the false floor are acrylic or PVC and have PVC pipe structures under them to transfer the weight down to the real floor.

5. I'm also considering making more of these 2" PVC pipe "cubes" with drilled holes in them and pushing them down into cavern zone to support the false floor better.

6. The cooling coils are titanium, not PEX or PVC.



7. For highest accessibility. I'm going to use 3 x 3/4" PVC planks @ 7.25" x 12' long on a scaffold that goes across the tank top. I've worked it out with dummies to make sure I can reach every part of the tank. If necessary, the portals should be able to hold my weight. The glass bottom is 3/4" but it's sitting on 3/4" acrylic and 3/4" plywood supported by 2x4 studs.



8. I'd adding a second floor attic space for the water storage and to have a dedicated area for the surge. This is better than having a platform since it'll be directly supported on 2x12s.





9. The sump is now in a cutout in the concrete of the slab with a 3/4" plywood cover ...



10. The sump has a concrete catch all around so any dirt falls into that section rather than the sump... I can see myself walking in with muddy feet... this is a 2" channel that protects the sump from the rest of the concrete floor. This section runs to a drain on the side.



11. The sump still has the settling loop and separate outputs for dirty and clean water. There's a separate section for water exchange without stopping the tank loop. This is really the water change region at ~100 gallons to allow for an automated and remote water change option.



12. I've also spaced out the 8 bulkheads in the back of the tank... this went along with increasing the glass thickness to 1" to make it all safer.

13. The flow chambers in the back are now composed of 4 acrylic wall sections that slide into grooves made of glass strips. There's a plastic cover that is held watertight with plastic screws through the holes in the glass sections. The powerheads are held in place with eggcrate and zip ties.

[karimwassef]

I'm starting the scale model build design. This should go up this summer if not sooner.

It's 1/8 scale



I'm using 3 pieces of tempered glass I have kept from some home remodeling activities and supplementing with 1/2" acrylic and 3/4" PVC board.

The PVC board is $40 for 12' so I'm going to experiment with it...

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Royal-Mould...12-ft/50092320

I've wanted to experiment with dissimilar material construction for a while and this will be a good way to try it in a safe environment where no animals are at risk.

The whole construction will be in a garage so even a leak or an explosion should be fail-safe.

I estimate the cost to be ~ $400... for ~ 170 gallon experimental tank.

[karimwassef]

The oversized tempered glass can't be cut so I'm using it for both tank and sump.

This will allow me to program the different powerheads and see if I can simulate the flows I want.

[don_chuwish]

And most people building a new house just have trouble picking out door knobs and plumbing fixtures - chrome or brushed nickel? ;-)
This will be fascinating to watch and learn!

[karimwassef]

Originally Posted by jccaclimber

Hard to quote from above on my phone, but regarding the chiller:
You may not want the outlet submerged, but running a mist or trickle over it may help. I don't think this will ever make it worse. Even at 100% relative humidity it would be equal. Wet bulb temp is never above dry bulb temp. Relative humidity should also be slightly lower than ambient at the coils since they are heating the air.

Interesting. I agree but wondering why that's not done with home HVAC outside units. Does it accelerate corrosion?

[jccaclimber]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

Interesting. I agree but wondering why that's not done with home HVAC outside units. Does it accelerate corrosion?

That's an interesting question, especially as this is how furnace humidifiers work up north. A few things come to mind:
1) You need RO water, or at least softened water. If you use standard tap water you will get a lot of calcium buildup which will not only clog your mister, but make your overall heat transfer much worse.
2) I'm not sure how resistant to corrosion the coils are. They sit outside so I would think they are reasonably resistant (much like car radiators), but at the same time I've seen some pretty impressive corrosion of aluminum parts in the wrong situation.
3) The cost of setting up misters may exceed the cost up upsizing the coil.

[karimwassef]

sure. but even a moderate improvement in efficiency should make an RO system viable in Dallas summers. I have a whole house water softener (this is Dallas after all).

[karimwassef]

...








never heard of this stuff.. but I guess it's real

[jccaclimber]

Edit to the above, I am also assuming the rest of the chiller system (frame, etc.) is going to be resistant to rust.

It is an interesting question though. What is typical for industrial systems is not typical for smaller scale systems. There must be some reason.

I also remember a professor from undergrad mentioning a 60's or 70's car that only had overheating issues when the A/C was on. His explanation of the dealer fix sounded a lot like taking the condensation from the evap. coil in the car and pumping it back over either the condensing coil or vehicle radiator (don't remember which off hand).

[jccaclimber]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

ok. so based on talking to some tank builders and special thanks to Felix from Reef Savvy, I've made some changes...

First, The tank is now only 30" tall. That's 18" above the false floor and 12" below.

Didn't want to pay the cost of increased glass thickness or another issue?

Originally Posted by karimwassef

2. All the visible sides are going to be 3/4" Starphire. The bottom is 3/4" glass and the back is 1" glass.

Why the back thicker than the front? I assume concern over the holes near the edge, although it would be interesting to see if this is actually a weak point.

Originally Posted by karimwassef

3. The overflow is wider and a regular rectangle now. It's also pulled all the way back to reduce the run to the sump.

4. The portals to the space under the false floor are acrylic or PVC and have PVC pipe structures under them to transfer the weight down to the real floor.

5. I'm also considering making more of these 2" PVC pipe "cubes" with drilled holes in them and pushing them down into cavern zone to support the false floor better.

6. The cooling coils are titanium, not PEX or PVC.

How do you plan to do the joints?

Originally Posted by karimwassef

7. For highest accessibility. I'm going to use 3 x 3/4" PVC planks @ 7.25" x 12' long on a scaffold that goes across the tank top. I've worked it out with dummies to make sure I can reach every part of the tank. If necessary, the portals should be able to hold my weight. The glass bottom is 3/4" but it's sitting on 3/4" acrylic and 3/4" plywood supported by 2x4 studs.

1) Why 3/4 acrylic under the glass opposed to double layering the glass (possibly including a 2 part adhesive that will cure without air exposure)? That acrylic sheet is probably going to cost more than the glass sheet. The bottom on my 170 is 1" glass with 1/4" softer plastic (feels like PE, but guessing it's not since it is bonded on. Maybe nylon?). It was good enough for AGE so I assume there was some thought behind it.
2) Consider a layer of plywood under the 2x4 studs as well as above. Makes it hard to get in the space between the studs, but greatly increases the bending strength of the box. Alternately just use a lot of posts which I assume you are doing anyways.
3)

Originally Posted by karimwassef

8. I'd adding a second floor attic space for the water storage and to have a dedicated area for the surge. This is better than having a platform since it'll be directly supported on 2x12s.

9. The sump is now in a cutout in the concrete of the slab with a 3/4" plywood cover ...

10. The sump has a concrete catch all around so any dirt falls into that section rather than the sump... I can see myself walking in with muddy feet... this is a 2" channel that protects the sump from the rest of the concrete floor. This section runs to a drain on the side.

11. The sump still has the settling loop and separate outputs for dirty and clean water. There's a separate section for water exchange without stopping the tank loop. This is really the water change region at ~100 gallons to allow for an automated and remote water change option.

12. I've also spaced out the 8 bulkheads in the back of the tank... this went along with increasing the glass thickness to 1" to make it all safer.

Answers my question from above.

Originally Posted by karimwassef

13. The flow chambers in the back are now composed of 4 acrylic wall sections that slide into grooves made of glass strips. There's a plastic cover that is held watertight with plastic screws through the holes in the glass sections. The powerheads are held in place with eggcrate and zip ties.

Seems like a good idea for the flow chambers.

[karimwassef]

Starphire isn't available thicker than 3/4"... that walks me down to a 30" max height.

[karimwassef]

The 8 holes at ~3" all in a row at the bottom edge of the back wall is a concern... so 1" green glass reduces the risk.

[karimwassef]

The titanium to PVC joints?

I found that 1/2" titanium tubing makes a very tight fit with 1/2" hose with a compression hose clamp.