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05/05/2010, 07:46 AM | #26 |
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Capn, heres the problem I have with that list. Cyclopeeze is good for a lot of things but IMO not SPS, and definitely not feather dusters. Rotifers, maybe, but were just guessing. Suggesting "rotifers and cyclopeeze" for SPS corals and feather dusters is like saying people could eat a piece of bacon or a pig. There are order-of-magnitude differences in size between the two, and with filter feeders size is everything. They are even on different trophic levels, cyclopeeze copepods probably eat rotifers naturally.
Nothing that I know of (including feather dusters) is capable of eating particles ranging in size from phytoplankton up to cyclopeeze. This indicates to me that the author of that list, just like most other people, is just guessing.
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05/05/2010, 08:01 AM | #27 | |
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05/06/2010, 06:59 PM | #28 |
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Here's an update from my friend's group... I guess he'll be sending me these as they get written...
"Growth comes from food, not light. Here is a nice report/study that helps explain what is really going on: "Effect of Natural Zooplankton Feeding on the Tissue and Skeletal Growth of the Scleractinian Coral Stylophora Pistillata. Publication: Coral Reefs, 2003" "Coral nutrition has been of interest to marine ecologists because of the high biomass concentration of reef corals, compared to the paucity of nutrients in the tropical waters where they live. Scleractinian corals [such as Stylophora] are heterotrophs, able to utilize a variety of food sources such as sediment, dissolved and particulate organic matter, bacteria, and zooplankton. They are also photo-autotrophs [feed from the sun] because they are symbiotic with unicellular dinoflagellates [algae in the coral's skin] commonly called zooxanthellae. Such multiple modes of nutrition seem to be an evolved mechanism for coping with oligotrophic [low nutrient] tropical waters." "Photo-autotrophy [feeding from the sun] has been well documented, and it is clear that corals obtain large amounts of photosynthetically fixed carbon [energy] from their symbiotic algae through translocation. It has been suggested that these photosynthetic products are mostly used for respiration [to stay alive], with only a small proportion being used for growth and reproduction, because such products [from the sun] are deficient in essential nutrients such as nitrogen and phosphorus [which are needed for growth]." "The main questions of [our] work is as follows: (1) Does feeding increase the amount of coral tissue, and at what rate? (2) Since zooxanthellae can use the catabolic end products of [the coral's] metabolism, does feeding also affect the [zooxanthellae] by changing their amount of chlorophyll or their cell density? (3) Does feeding change the coral's calcification [growth] rate? (4) How do light levels and food supply interact to affect calcification and tissue growth rates?" "Laboratory experiments were designed to estimate the ingestion rates of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata under varying prey [food] concentrations, and feeding regimes, and to assess the effect of feeding on the tissue and skeletal growth. Six sets of corals were incubated under two light and three feeding levels (none, fed twice, and fed six times per week), using freshly collected zooplankton. Results showed that the number of prey [food] ingested was proportional to the prey density [amount of food in the water], and that no saturation of feeding capability was reached. Capture rates varied between 0.5 and 8 prey items per 200 polyps per hour. Corals starved for several days ingested more plankton than did fed corals. Fed colonies exhibited significantly higher levels of protein, chlorophyll a, and chlorophyll c2, per unit surface area than starved colonies did. Feeding had a strong effect on tissue growth, increasing it by two to eight times. Calcification [growth] rates were also 30% higher in fed than in starved corals. Even moderate levels of feeding enhanced both tissue and skeletal growth, although the processes involved in this enhancement remain to be determined." "In January 2000, 60 randomly selected micro-colonies [of stylophora] were divided into four aquaria containing 15 corals each. Growth of each [frag] was monitored during 2 weeks before the start of the experiment (control period). Two groups were then fed 6 days per week, for 6 weeks, with freshly collected zooplankton, while the other two groups remained starved. Each fed and starved group was maintained at two light intensities. The tank positions were changed regularly to avoid any uneven light effect. Corals within each aquarium were also rotated to avoid any position difference (flow, light) effects within the aquaria." "In July 2000, 120 microcolonies were divided into six aquaria containing 20 corals each. Growth rates were also followed during 2 weeks before the start of the experiment. Two groups were then fed six times a week for 6 weeks with zooplankton (highly fed group). Two other groups were fed only twice a week (slightly fed group). The last two groups remained starved (starved group). Each group was maintained at the same light intensities, and treated as above." "Plankton were collected from [the ocean] every morning and brought back immediately to the laboratory. [...] After feeding, the tanks were entirely emptied and refilled with new seawater." "When presented with food, starved corals captured plankton at significantly higher rates than slightly and highly fed groups; there was no significant difference between the slightly and the highly fed groups." "For both experiments, the amount of [coral tissue] per unit surface area was significantly higher in fed than in starved corals, and at both light levels, by the end of the experiment; fed corals contained 30 to 49 percent more [coral tissue] per square centimeter than starved corals. There was, however, no significant difference between coral groups fed twice and six times per week. There was a strong effect of feeding and light on these [tissue growth] rates. Feeding and light significantly increased the amount of tissue produced over a given area of skeleton." "Skeletal growth rates, calculated for the entire incubation time, were significantly higher for fed corals, at both light levels, for the January experiment and under low light during the July experiment. [...] Fed corals experienced 50 to 73 percent more growth in January under high and low light, respectively, and 46 percent more growth in July under low light." "Feeding is one of the least-understood aspects of coral biology, possibly because significant quantities of identifiable prey [food] items are difficult to find in [coral stomach] samples without rapid preservation, and because the sampling process is laborious. [...] Stylophora pistillata, despite its relatively small polyp size, captures and ingests zooplankton readily, mainly copepods, in these experiments." "The number of [pods] ingested was proportional to prey density [food in the water]." "Feeding status had an important effect on these rates; corals maintained under starvation for several days ingested more plankton than did well fed corals. However, capture rates were not significantly different between slightly and highly fed groups. It seems unlikely, that in the case of the slightly fed group in particular, a saturation in feeding response would be responsible for this difference, given the 2-day interval between feeding bouts. [A previous study] suggested that the time spent digesting prey limits the amount of food consumed, since prey are not captured while there is food in the gut [thus, feeding corals all at one time wastes the majority of the food]" "Results obtained in this study show that feeding had a strong effect on tissue growth, increasing it two and eight times in July and January, respectively. These results indicate that, even during optimum light conditions, photo-autotrophy [feeding from the sun] cannot satisfy the maximal daily energy and nutrient requirements of corals for both maintenance and growth." "This study also strengthens the previous results showing higher calcification [growth] rates in fed than in starved corals. The enhancement of both tissue and skeletal growth with feeding suggests that the coral Stylophora pistillata allocates a high proportion of the energy brought by food to growth, when food is available. [...] In this study, fed corals grown under low light were able to maintain their growth rates, while the growth rates of starved corals dramatically decreased during the incubation. The highest growth was, however, observed when corals utilized both heterotrophic [food] and photo-autotrophic [light] nutritional sources." "Whatever limits calcification [growth] rates, feeding removes some of that limitation." Attached below is Figure 5 from the study |
05/06/2010, 07:52 PM | #29 |
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lobster of justice, what do you suggest we feed our tanks then. i have a mostly softy, lps tank with a few sps (4 frags or so) i would love to help my reef be more healthy and this is a facinating topic.
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05/06/2010, 08:06 PM | #30 |
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I think any of us with any experience in keeping corals understand that the ocean is the optimal place for corals to grow because of the constant food suppply and many other factors. One of those factors, and its a huge one, is water quality. We've all seen someone's neglected reef with bleached corals and it is almost always a water quality issue. We spend over a thousand dollars for the best skimmers on the market, buy expensive supplements and do water changes constantly all for the sake of water quality. Yes corals need "food", and we supply them with this, but they also need good, even great water. Target, or even broadcast feeding is the happy medium for us. It would be awsome to supply our corals with food 24/7 but the nitrates and phosphates would be so uncontrollable that it would probably kill the corals, our fish, and even our other inverts. We constantly strive to find and keep the perfect balance for our little oceanic microcosms, and a constant supply of zoos and phytos ect. is just not possible.(IMO)
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05/06/2010, 08:07 PM | #31 |
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Whoops I forgot the two videos that went with it...
"Here is a good intro video to zooplankton: "And here are polyps catching zooplankton: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbUc4u-veZE |
05/06/2010, 10:12 PM | #32 | |
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05/06/2010, 11:00 PM | #33 |
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Cool thread I hope to learn more... one thing that is said here is that lights don't really matter... I have to disagree I would say if you want healthy corals you need strong light that helps the plankton (micro algae) to grow so zooplankton have something to eat... so you can have a half decent ecosystem in your tank.
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05/06/2010, 11:20 PM | #34 | |
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05/06/2010, 11:35 PM | #35 | |
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Also, I don't think zooplankton that are large enough to swim around an underwater science facility and be filmed doing it, are small enough for SPS coral polyps either. But both were an interesting watch. I just don't see the correlation to what we're discussing here. Which is zooplankton size that is appropriate for SPS polyps to digest.
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05/06/2010, 11:45 PM | #36 |
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.... dogstar did you not listen to the zooplankton one? they are not filming them in the ocean much they are using sonar (acoustic profiler)... and if you think you can't film stuff on a microscope I think you need to do some more reading.
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05/07/2010, 07:23 AM | #37 | |
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I'm not saying dont feed. But I think people misunderstand what to feed - and water quality is just as (arguably more) important as feeding, and there is a fine balance between the two. If I had the means to completely drain and refill my tank after every feeding, sure, I'd feed the heck out of the corals.
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If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. I remember when zoanthids were called things like "green" and "orange" and not "reverse gorilla nipple." Current Tank Info: 180g reef with all the bells and whistles |
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05/07/2010, 07:24 AM | #38 |
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this is so interesting and somewhat confusing in some ways. i just finished reading this thread and the basic take home message i got was we need to feed our corals. the balance is evident of course, we need to somehow balance the fact that our corals need food, while on the other hand, they also need good water quality. constant feeding is unrealistic, even in the experiment described, they would do a complete water change. i can't saturate mt tank water with live food then do a complete water change everyday.
where my confusion comes from is, ive also just read about all this zeo stuff and low nutrient systems and this seems to be in direct contradiction to the current concept of high nutrient ideas in this thread. so which one is it? lots of junk for the corals to eat or little to no junk for the corals to be happy?
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05/07/2010, 07:30 AM | #39 | |
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LPS/Anemones/Fish - cyclopeeze/mysis SPS, many softies - detritus, copepods smaller than cyclopeeze (i.e. barely visible), rotifers, bacteria (i realize this is still a huge range in size but I have not seen any gut content studies so...) Feather dusters - phyto/bacteria (i'm not sure) Keep an eye on water quality though...
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If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. I remember when zoanthids were called things like "green" and "orange" and not "reverse gorilla nipple." Current Tank Info: 180g reef with all the bells and whistles |
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05/07/2010, 07:35 AM | #40 | |
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If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. I remember when zoanthids were called things like "green" and "orange" and not "reverse gorilla nipple." Current Tank Info: 180g reef with all the bells and whistles |
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05/07/2010, 07:47 AM | #41 |
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That figure is not from the study you quoted (at least, originally). Additionally the figure just says if plankton availability increases, feeding increases. If 500 plankton "pieces" are in a 3x3x3 tank, the coral will catch one every one hour and 12 minutes. If I'm interpreting that last figure correctly...
Not trying to argue, just getting facts straight. A graph with an increasing line can be impressive but that graph is not talking about coral growth.
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If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. I remember when zoanthids were called things like "green" and "orange" and not "reverse gorilla nipple." Current Tank Info: 180g reef with all the bells and whistles |
05/07/2010, 06:50 PM | #42 | |
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I prefer my substrates stirred but not shaken Current Tank Info: 150gal long mixed reef, 90gal sump, 60 gal refugium with 200 lbs live rock |
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05/08/2010, 10:02 AM | #43 |
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Yes the barnacles eating... I must have more experience with corals than I thought, because I had plenty of barnacles on my rowboat once
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05/08/2010, 10:39 AM | #44 | |
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I think that the bio load and more food from the bigger tank are the reason the corals don't do as well in the tank, I think feeding less is going to help, and I am working towards this for that reason. my softies don't seem to care, they thrive in both tanks, and I have a scoly that is rocking in my big tank, and it was doing poorly at the store. I have another brain that has really shown growth in two short months also, so I feel like softer tissue corals don't mind a little more "junk in the trunk". This months reef of the month really got me thinking about this when he mentioned the low nutrient theory and how colors got so much better. I think it does boil down to physiology. this is like us, not an exact science, and one thing works for one thing, and not another. We have to experiment to an extent. |
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05/08/2010, 10:46 AM | #45 |
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so, i have soft corals, what do i feed them?
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05/08/2010, 10:48 AM | #46 |
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now are you guys turning pumps or skimmers off during feeding?
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05/08/2010, 10:50 AM | #47 |
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SPS, many softies - detritus, copepods smaller than cyclopeeze (i.e. barely visible), rotifers, bacteria (i realize this is still a huge range in size but I have not seen any gut content studies so...)
is this something you can buy or best to grow or hatch? |
05/08/2010, 12:09 PM | #48 |
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the term "soft coral" covers a huge range of coral species!
My best general recommendation would be to feed your fishes and not your corals. Leave skimmer on 24/7 and monitor phosphates with a low range phosphate test.
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05/09/2010, 07:24 AM | #49 |
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All this feeding. I need to get some corals so they can have some fish poop :0
Did not think it would be so involved. |
05/09/2010, 08:32 AM | #50 |
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Interesting thread.
I remember reading somewhere that almost all tanks have at least some phytoplankton present. When I look at my tank I see lots of micro life going on in all the little nooks & crannies. Pods (especially tiger pods) seem to be everywhere. When these guys reproduce I would have to believe they are creating a nice zooplankton soup for my corals. My question is about how to foster the phyto that is naturally occouring in my tank. It seems that it is the bottom of the food chain in my tank and if I foster that organism the rest will fall into place. Am I off base?
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