T5s vs. MH... What would be the ultimate faceoff?

[The Grim Reefer]

I am sure Sanjay will test any lamps you want to send him

As far as the area to test 48x24" would be the most usefull. I would expect 6 T5 lamps to cover 18" front to back pretty good but drop off on 24" tank. Be nice to see how much. With that info it would be pretty easy to figure what we need on wider tanks.

Other lamp comparisons I'd like to see.

6 Aquablues against XM 10K's

3 Aquablues 3 Blue Plus against Phoenix 14K

6 Blue Plus against XM or Radium 20K

[dbc1717]

I agree with the thought about testing lower...I went with t-5's because I wanted a look like mh but my hood was too small...I think many people choose t5 to fit in low hoods.

I am using the icecap ballast because I wanted more power...My setup is very bright but I wonder if the shortened bulb life is worth it. It might be interesting to see what "overdriving" really buys you in light and spectrum, verses the standard ballast.

I certianly recomend the icecap reflectors.

[MJSavage]

Sanjay, thanks for all the hard work and dedication.

My interest would be more "what is T5 capable of" and "what is the coverage and penetration" I am not really interested in how it does vs MH just how it does on it's own and vs other T5 bulbs/ballasts/reflectors and how much do fans or a specific bulb temperature affect par.

Mike

[Henry Bowman]

Dont have a plethora of technical knowledge here but I have been following the T5 threads pretty closely. I went with T5's instead of MH (which I have had before) for various reasons. I have the following observations and questions from my experience.

To re emphasize and or repeat what was stated earlier. Start with T5 set-ups that are readily avaliable to us all. Non European only or "recently entering the market" set ups.

I think you should use Ice caps or another common ballast avaliable to us all, without overdriving the lamps (if that is possible with an IC ballast) just saying keep the initial set up simple. Ballast bulb combos and overdriving could possibly come at a later date. I'd like to see a baseline here.

The hood or unit design should have fans or some type of cooling to keep the T5's at optimum temp. Grim has already posted how heat is detrimental to the output of T5's.

Individual reflectors are a must to create a level playing field. I dont think a variety should be used or tested, just a good representation of some of the better / best ones on the market. You can start changing them out at a later date if you want to evaluate them.

I agree with previous posts about 4' for being a good size bulb to test in a 3X4 area. I am thinking that you'd do readings from various areas, poss directly under and at the edges of the "hood / canopy" area. Most folks are striving to cover their entire tank top with the retro or T5 unit.

I'd also suggest testing with a single sets or color of the same bulbs (like Grim Suggested) in the T5 unit to start and do the par and spectrum readings vs. output of the most common 250 W MH bulbs, 10K or 15K bulbs (I think the DE 250's with a good reflector are what most are thinking when they think MH vs T5).

Poss use Ice Cap Electronic Ballast for the MH vs Ice Cap for the T5's ... OR you could go with the best MH bulb and ballast combo that your research indicates gives most favorable results.

THEN test cominations or the t5 bulbs based on the spectrum and par analisys of each bulb to try and create the "best combination" of T5's in comparison to the MH's.

My 2 cents worth.

[pcurry18]

Holy dear baby jesus. Im just looking for advice...i never thought it took a rocket scientist to place the correct lights over a tank. I was goin to get the T-5s with 6 daylight and 2 actinic (8X39) is this a good enuff setup for a92 corner?

[The Grim Reefer]

Pop over to the T5 Q&A thread so we dont pull this off topic.

Short answer is the T5's are enough but your lamp selection would not look very good. You'd probably want to run 3 bluepluses, a couple actinics an the daylights.

[Marcello Salles]

Hello Sanjay

as the Brazilian importer of T5's produced by NARVA to Fauna Marin (Germany); i would like to send you samples of the Aqua Science Special and Aqua Science Blue for your test.

For your guidance, we use here 4 x 54 to cover an area of 1,20 cm x 0,50 x 0,50 with good results for mixed tanks.

When its a SPS only we use 6 or 8 x 54 watts for the same area, mixing 1 x 1 Aqua Science Special and Blue in any case.

That's our objective, find out what is enough for a SPS tank only ?!?


Just tell me how to send you !!

Best

Marcello Salles
Rio de Janeiro
Brazil

www.ciadoaquario.com.br

[jag1979]

thanks Sanjay and Marcello!

[Sanjay]

Ok.. so are we converging here on a few things.

Fixtures: SLS and Aquanitics ? I would like to stick to commercially available stuff that is easily available in the US. Use ballasts and reflectors that are sold with this fixtures.

Wattage: try to match watts with MH ? But the problem is that a 4X54 watts is less than a 250W and a 6X54 is more than a 250W. 8X54 is more comparable to a 400W.

Color Temp: Compare lamp combo of T5 that represents color output similar to CCT of MH.. so a combo of lamps to compare against 10K, a different combo to compare against 14K, etc. I will need help picking the right combo of lamps.

Measurement depths: Measure at 30" to get good idea of spread and distribution at bottom of tanks. Test will be done in air, as a first order approximation - water should have the same effect on all lights so we can remove it as a variable. Any need to take measurements at different depths. ?

Measurement Surface: 4ft X 3ft with readings at 3 in interverals.

Measured Values: PAR/PPFD at points on the surface. Measuring CCT of a mix of lamps may not make sense since it could be affected by the poor mixing of light from the different lamps.

Is there any value in measuing output and spectrals of individual lamps ? I do not want to step on anyone elses toes.. I know some of your (GrimReefer) are measuring individual lamp outputs.

sanjay.

[Ti]

Using all aquablue lamps should be comparable to a 10K halide.

[gcarroll]

Sanjay, is there any plan to allow a handicap for the T5 unit since they are typically used closer to the waters surface?

[Ti]

He'll probably measure distance from bulb, so probably not much of a point for a handicap. T5's shouldn't need it anyways since based on the par readings so far.

[Henry Bowman]

Sanjay

Fixtures: I agree

Wattage: More 250 watt Mh users out there. doesnt 4X54=216.
This would be close? Unless I am missing something here.

Color Temp: Grim or Hahnmeister would be the best resources here.....A mix of lamps that comes closest to the output of the opposing MH

Measurment Depth: 30" would be a good test for the initial run then if there are significant variations, you could proceed from there if needed.

Measurement Surface: I agree

Measured Values: Start at 12" and move in 6" increments to 32"?

Value of measuring individual lamps: Not really since we all use a mix of lamps. Get the best "guestimation or combo" from the group and start there.

just my opinions.

and thanks for all the work on the lighting subject. You are a real asset to the hobby

[The Grim Reefer]

Originally posted by Sanjay


Is there any value in measuing output and spectrals of individual lamps ? I do not want to step on anyone elses toes.. I know some of your (GrimReefer) are measuring individual lamp outputs.

sanjay.

No, no, no, Sanjay, you da' man.

All I have done is measured different lamps peak par and what the different reflectors will do. It's all in a running reef so my stuff is helpful but not nearly as accurate as the kind of testing you do.

Knowing the spectrum of the different lamps would be a huge help. Knowing the PAR is nice but knowing each lamps sprectrum would help as far as which lamps should be combined to get the best results.

As far as fixtures the Aquactinics Solar Flare is going to be the best T5 unit for peak output at depth. It uses Ice Cap ballasts and reflectors which are top of the line. The ballasts overdrive the lamps and the unit uses a fan to maximize output. http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/cat...oducts_id=1088

A retrofit could be used but then you get into issues of number of lamps and using fans and how they are placed, blah, blah, blah,

My thought was going best t5 against best halide would make life a lot easier on you. The Tek light from Sunlight Supply is a good entry level T5 fixture too. It would be nice to know how they stack up against the halides and the high end T5 unit. Maybe test the 2 T5 units against a Lumenarc and spider reflector halide setup.

A 6 lamp T5 fixture is probably best suited for tanks around 18" front to back. It would be helpful to know how much intnesity is lost going to 24 and even 36" front to back.

As for measurement area if possible measuring a 4 foot by 2 foot area using 2 halides against the 54 watt T5 fixtures would be helpfull. Again knowing how much will spread beyond the reflectors will help T5 users determine the number of lamps needed to cover tanks thicker than 18".

As far as lamps go testing mixes of T5's against a specific halide would be nice but you would get so many different opinions on which mixes match which halide you'd never get finished.

The GE 6500 Daylight and UVL Aquasun are the highest output lamps currently available that I have measured as far as usable lamps. I figured putting a fixture with those against the Iwasaki 6500K is going head to head with the strongest output lamps for each.

The Aquablue T5 is a 60/40 Actinic/daylight combination that is slightly blue. They are a little bluer than the XM 10K halide to my eye but I think they would be a fair comparison.

A 50/50 Mix of Aquablues and the Blue Plus is going to look like a more blue 14K halide lamp.

The Blue Plus is marketed as a 20K halide look. I think comparing those to a 20K would be helpful.

Hope that helps more than confuses. If you need any help with your quest for t5's don't hesitate to contact me.

Thanks for all you do for us

[The Grim Reefer]

Originally posted by Ti
He'll probably measure distance from bulb, so probably not much of a point for a handicap. T5's shouldn't need it anyways since based on the par readings so far.

I would say about a 4~6 handicap to the T5's would be good. They are typically ran that much lower than halides. If the plan is to take measurements at different levels it would be pretty easy to compare the 24" reading of a T5 to the 30" reading of a halide to get an idea of the diffrence.

[ROR]

Couldn't the test be done through water by placing your grid under a tank.

[Ti]

They probably should be measured at equal distances at some starting point like 4-6 inch away.
To give a halide a longer distance to measure would skew the results for T5.
So far inch for inch T5 is beating halides tested so far on par readings.

Suggestions for MH bulbs XM 10K for the 10K range and maybe the Iwasaki 14K for the 14K range.

[db_triggerfish]

OT but, any tank pics with T5 Solar Flare 48?

[The Grim Reefer]

Just having a reading of the T5's at say 6" and 12" will give us a pretty good idea of the gain from the lights being closer to the water. That is where they make up the most of the halides starting advantage.

[Ti]

Originally posted by db_triggerfish
OT but, any tank pics with T5 Solar Flare 48?

Pop over to the T5 Q&A thread so we dont pull this off topic.

[raynist]

Originally posted by Sanjay
Ok.. so are we converging here on a few things.

Fixtures: SLS and Aquanitics ? I would like to stick to commercially available stuff that is easily available in the US. Use ballasts and reflectors that are sold with this fixtures.

Wattage: try to match watts with MH ? But the problem is that a 4X54 watts is less than a 250W and a 6X54 is more than a 250W. 8X54 is more comparable to a 400W.

Color Temp: Compare lamp combo of T5 that represents color output similar to CCT of MH.. so a combo of lamps to compare against 10K, a different combo to compare against 14K, etc. I will need help picking the right combo of lamps.

Measurement depths: Measure at 30" to get good idea of spread and distribution at bottom of tanks. Test will be done in air, as a first order approximation - water should have the same effect on all lights so we can remove it as a variable. Any need to take measurements at different depths. ?

Measurement Surface: 4ft X 3ft with readings at 3 in interverals.

Measured Values: PAR/PPFD at points on the surface. Measuring CCT of a mix of lamps may not make sense since it could be affected by the poor mixing of light from the different lamps.

Is there any value in measuing output and spectrals of individual lamps ? I do not want to step on anyone elses toes.. I know some of your (GrimReefer) are measuring individual lamp outputs.

sanjay.

Hi Sanjay,

How about a 6 bulb retro with regular ballasts and icecap reflectors (and a mix of bulbs that Grim could recommend) against a 2x175w (Iwasaki 15k's on icecap ballasts since these are the most powerfull 175w bulbs and lumenarc mini reflectors). This would be about the same wattage (324 t-5 to 326 mh - according to your test of the 15k Iwasaki on icecap ballast)

You could also test the new Solar Flare against 2 - 250w bulbs with lumenarc reflectors. This should be roughly the same wattage for each (480 t-5 to 500 mh).

--Ray

[Jacob D]

Sanjay,

I'm very happy to see you performing this test. There being so many variables here, my personal preference would be to set the goal towards a practical comparison.

Configuration
I would think that a 48" x 24" tank footprint would be reasonable given that you want to utilize 48" bulbs. 2 x 250w halides or 6 x 54w T5's could both be a practical lighting choice for this footprint in a light demanding application (SPS for example).

Bulbs
As far as T5 bulb choices, I think it would be perfectly acceptable to test a solid bank of one particular bulb. If this could be done for the ~20k, ~10k, and ~6.5k bulbs there should be sufficient data to extrapolate results of putting bulbs into combinations (unless you're feeling really ambitious and want to test more bulbs or combinations). For the MH's I think putting them up against similar Kelvin would make sense, I don't have much input as to the brand.

Relfectors
For the T5's both Icecap and Sunlight Supply are popular and practical choices. If time allowed, it would be interesting to see one comparison with the generic single reflector that a some of the manufactured T5 setups use. For the MH, maybe Lumenarcs.

Ballasts
For the T5's I would prefer to see the standard Triad or equivalent tested. For the MH's... that's a tough one? For this test I'm more concerned with the performance of the T5's rather than directly compared to MH, so to me the MH ballast wouldn't weight my opinion of the test results too much.

Depth
6" increments starting at 6" or 12" and going to 30" would be fantastic! As far as height off the water, again I would use practical numbers; 3-4 inches for T5, at least 6" for halides, probably more like 8".


Given that T5's allow for more possibilities than halides I would like to see the testing approached in a way that facilitates logical extrapolation of the data into other scenarios. That's my two cents. In any case I'm really looking forward to the outcome!

[pjf]

Dr. Joshi,

Thanks again for performing a spectral analysis of the LED fixture that I sent to you last year!

I greatly appreciate your continuing advancement of aquarium lighting.

With kindest regards,
pjf

[Alaska_Phil]

For a comparison I'd make the following suggestions:

1. Use comparible cost fixtures. There are so many hundreds of different refectors, ballasts, lamps etc that you can't possibly have a totally fair performance competition, but I can safely say that cost is a factor for most reefers.

2. Use similar overall wattages, I know they can't match exactly, but they should be at least similar. Face it, one reason many reefers go to MH is they can only pack so many watts of fluorescent over a given tank. Heck, I could easily fit two 1,000W MH over a 55 gal, but 6x54 is about the limit for T5's.

3. Use a grid size that corresponds to a popular tank size. 48x18 for a 75 and 90 gal. or 72x24 for a 150 or 180.

4. Use a vertical grid too. Since most reefs end of very vertical, some variation of a rocky wall. it'd be nice to get an idea of light to back wall of the selected tank size, or even say 8" in from the back wall.

5. I don't know that individual lamp types are that important. We can easily look up the spectrums and outputs after all. Too bad they don't publish .ies files for aquarium lights.

Just my thoughts.

Phil

[horkn]

Originally posted by Ti
This is why Sanjay has chosen to test it out.
Thanks again Sanjay.
Looking forward to your results.

oh yeah..


i cant wait to find out what sanjay's results are.

i still think the best reef tanks are lit by both MH and t5ho , and not just the t5s as supplementals...