Dosing Reef tank and inverts w/ strong medicine

[Frost_Hydra]

I managed to get myself in a pickle. Long story short I made the worst mistake ever by not quarantining a fish. That fish was on my main display (my only tank) and it turns out it brought a parasite with it. It soon died and I lost a small clownfish with it too. I got 10 grams of Chloroquine Phosphate (99.9% pure) to partially does the tank with. I heard inverts don't handle this very well and I was wondering if I could save them somehow. I have a Skunk Cleaner Shrimp and a Peppermint Shrimp, and a small BTA (attached to a small moveable rock). I don't know how long it will take the tank to completely break down and get rid of the phosphate, but right now my plan is to put them in a small watertight container, and leave it in the aquarium for two days.

I was wondering if anyone had experience with using Chloroquine Phosphate or had any ideas on how to save the inverts.

I ordered a quartine tank and from now on ill be quarantining all fish for 4 weeks

[Dmorty217]

Take your inverts out immediately and get them into a tank without CP in it. Chloroquine will kill all corals and inverts. Your anemone will not last long in it either. What disease was brought into the tank that you're treating for?

[ktownhero]

To be blunt, this is a horrible idea and I hope you haven't medicated the tank yet. Get your QT set up and move your fish to be treated into there... Depending on the disease you are referring to it is possible you may not need to treat the display tank. For example, if it is ich you can just leave the fish in QT and out of the tank for 72 days. If it's something else, let us know so we can help.

[Subsea]

Treating an established tank with chemicals can have short term and long term disaster to the biofilter. Plus, do you even have the slightest clue as to what you are treating. Really, do you always respond by shooting from the hip and hoping to get it right.

Slow down and do some research without nuking your tank biofilter.

[Dmorty217]

Originally Posted by Subsea

Treating an established tank with chemicals can have short term and long term disaster to the biofilter. Plus, do you even have the slightest clue as to what you are treating. Really, do you always respond by shooting from the hip and hoping to get it right.

Slow down and do some research without nuking your tank biofilter.

CP won't do anything to the biofilter but will kill ALL algae, inverts and corals. I agree its best to not treat with a medication if you have no idea what you're treating for

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Dmorty217

CP won't do anything to the biofilter but will kill ALL algae, inverts and corals. I agree its best to not treat with a medication if you have no idea what you're treating for

While I am old school with > 45 years reef experience, I do read peer reviewed science articles. Can you provide a link so that I can better understand a chemical compound that can do collateral damage to corals, macro, inverts and in no way effect bacteria. To be blunt, it sounds like vendor advertising.

I seek knowledge.

[Subsea]

With respect to the bio filter in a captive reef tank, coral is a part of the bio filter. Coral recycles nutrients and grows. By definition, that is a component of a biofilter.

When Ken Felderman did his peer reviewed articles on bacteria populations in a carbon dosed tank, he made some unique observations. Data collected on removal of DOC in reef tanks that were carbon dosed show:

Protein skimming, at best, removed 45% of DOC
GAC removed 65%
Biological filter removed > 75%

I have tanks set up for > 25 years. I assure you, I don’t screw around with my established biological filter.

[sde1500]

It is a malaria medicine, shouldn't affect bacteria.

[nereefpat]

Originally Posted by Subsea

While I am old school with > 45 years reef experience, I do read peer reviewed science articles. Can you provide a link so that I can better understand a chemical compound that can do collateral damage to corals, macro, inverts and in no way effect bacteria. To be blunt, it sounds like vendor advertising.

I seek knowledge.

Copper, for example.

[Dmorty217]

Originally Posted by Subsea

While I am old school with > 45 years reef experience, I do read peer reviewed science articles. Can you provide a link so that I can better understand a chemical compound that can do collateral damage to corals, macro, inverts and in no way effect bacteria. To be blunt, it sounds like vendor advertising.

I seek knowledge.

I can't provide a article that is a study on it but what I can tell you is I have treated my 625g tank with literally hundreds of grams of CP and it did nothing to the biofilter. When I was battling ich 2 years ago I would treat with 47g of CP at a time and redose the med every week. If it was going to damage a biofilter my tank would of crashed. I use CP all the time for fish in QT and I can assure you it is biofiltration safe.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by nereefpat

Copper, for example.

Did you just say that cooper would not effect biological filter? Perhaps we should be specific, how many ppm of cooper does not damage bacteria population. Then to be even more specific, which bacteria strains can deal with the copper that you speak of.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Dmorty217

I can't provide a article that is a study on it but what I can tell you is I have treated my 625g tank with literally hundreds of grams of CP and it did nothing to the biofilter. When I was battling ich 2 years ago I would treat with 47g of CP at a time and redose the med every week. If it was going to damage a biofilter my tank would of crashed. I use CP all the time for fish in QT and I can assure you it is biofiltration safe.

I see you have a nice display. For certain, you have achieved success in that respect. It is your tank, your husbandry and just as your signature says, it is your responsibility to provide for the inhabitants in your tank.

With my 45 years of hands on reefing, I have never qt. I have been skimmerless for 25 years and every tank that I have is sumpless but my 25 year old 75G Jaubert Plenum. I can show you many pictures of successful tanks under my natural systems husbandry. As PaulB has preached, if you feed proper nourishment, the natural immune system of a fish will resist ich, HLLE and many other ailments. I have adopted his husbandry on purchasing live clams from seafood market, except Paul goes to Long Island Sound and digs up clams to eat. The tank gets the left overs.

If you doubt the importance of gut cavity bacteria as necessary for a healthy immune system, just google, “importance of gut cavity bacteria for healthy immune system”. Most of the scientific studies are on human gut cavity because money is in medical research. However, the evidence is there. For me, it is very easy to see the connection with fish immune systems. It cost me $.15 twice a day to feed a 75G display and four 55G grow out tanks two live mussels.

For my testimony of proven results, I received several Blue Tangs from Divers Den with obvious ich spots visible thru shipping bag. Tangs showed obvious stress by laying on side and breathing frantically. With six stressed Tangs, I made decision to release them into my display which at that time was 20 year old reef tank. Tangs feed immediately. Within three days, all spots disappeared. After 10 days all itching and scratching disappeared. That was 5 years ago.

I do not think that I cured ich in my reef tank. I think that the fish immune system response with adequate slime coat and whatever else resisted the only stage of life that requires a host. The trophont stage sees ich feeding on host thru slime coat, then drop into substrate to multiply after dormat stage. The current scientific literature says most will develope in 72 days. It only takes one to reinfest a tank, if fish immune system is compromised.

It blows me away to hear what reefers do to new fish and inverts without even seeing any symptoms: hypo salinity, isolation lockdown in qt tank, cooper dosing and the list goes on.

[nereefpat]

Originally Posted by Subsea

Did you just say that cooper would not effect biological filter? Perhaps we should be specific, how many ppm of cooper does not damage bacteria population. Then to be even more specific, which bacteria strains can deal with the copper that you speak of.

Similar explanation as Dmorty's CP.

Copper (though it is less common recently) is added to quarantine tanks, as well as displays without inverts, without causing crashes due to ammonia spikes...due to loss of nitrifying bacteria.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by nereefpat

Similar explanation as Dmorty's CP.

Copper (though it is less common recently) is added to quarantine tanks, as well as displays without inverts, without causing crashes due to ammonia spikes...due to loss of nitrifying bacteria.

That is really not an explanation that science backs up and neither is what Dmory said. You left out crucial words when you did .....

First, copper will kill bacteria.
The reason that copper is used in a quarantine tank is not to kill bacteria in display tank.
Does that fill in the ..........

[nereefpat]

Originally Posted by Subsea

That is really not an explanation that science backs up and neither is what Dmory said. You left out crucial words when you did .....

First, copper will kill bacteria.
Probably, at a certain concentration. You asked about medications that will damage corals and macro inverts, but not affect the biological filtration of an aquarium. Copper is one, and apparently so is CP. CP and Cu are lethal to inverts at the concentration we dose, but aren't lethal to nitrifying bacteria at that same concentration. If they were lethal to those bacteria, we would see ammonia spikes in our quarantine tanks when CP and Cu are used.
The reason that copper is used in a quarantine tank is not to kill bacteria in display tank.
No. Copper is kept out of displays because displays usually contain corals and other inverts like shrimp, snails, crabs, etc. Some fish stores (use to, and probably still do) run copper in their holding tanks. The Cu is used to combat disease, and the biofilter is still intact, which is good because ammonia is a lot harder on fish than ich is on fish.
Does that fill in the ..........

[Subsea]

Pat,
Thank you for those details. I hear the explanation that because ammonia is not observed after copper is used in quarantine tank determines that copper is safe for nitrifying bacteria. While it may be true that ammonia is not observed by hobbiest , that does not conclusively tell me copper has no effect on bacteria. Furthermore, unless those findings were done under scientific lab conditions, I see no real evidence aside from a lot of people doing it. Again I ask for a peer reviewed scientific paper. If it is a fact, then please show me the facts. So far, I see no evidence. Thank you for the dots, but I am not buying any just yet.

[Subsea]

This is the first link that I went to.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2013/2/fish

Contraindications
At doses typically used to treat fish diseases, chloroquine is also toxic to many invertebrates, algae and bacteria. Seriously high ammonia levels ( > 1 mg/l NH3) are sometimes seen a few days to a week after dosing an aquarium with chloroquine. It is unknown why this is seen in some aquariums but not others. One hypothesis is that the chloroquine has a direct antibiotic effect on the nitrifying bacteria. Another idea is that the chloroquine kills so much microscopic life in the aquarium that the beneficial bacteria are overwhelmed, and an ammonia spike develops. Most likely, it is a combination of both of these factors causing this issue. Always monitor the ammonia levels in aquariums during treatment with chloroquine. Freshwater aquariums should also be monitored for subsequent rise in nitrite levels as well.

[Subsea]

This is the second link that I went to on cooper and bacteria. It is quite in depth going past nitrifying bacteria. It deals with the bacteria that are imbeded in coral biomass. Yes coral need bacteria to exist. Read the details, then tell me if copper is safe in a reef tank.

http://mbio.asm.org/content/5/6/e01980-14.full

[Subsea]

This is the second link that I went to for copper treatment in marine aquarium.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa165

Bacterial Considerations
"Copper is also toxic to the nitrifying bacteria in the biofilter. At 0.3 mg/L Cu2+, copper sulfate inhibits ammonia and nitrite oxidation; therefore, increases in ammonia or nitrite levels in the system should be monitored closely during copper treatments. By contrast, bacteria that can cause disease in fish are much more resistant to copper, with some only inhibited or killed at free copper levels as high as 1.25 mg/L (Cardeilhac and Whitaker 1988)."

The last sentence of this paragraph is the most important to note. When good bacteria are reduced, the bad bacteria increase.

[Frost_Hydra]

Sorry to interrupt your guy's heated debate, but to answer your questions, the tank is infected with Uronema. I have not treated the tank. I have ordered a 30g tank and it is coming in a week, I currently don't have any other tanks (yes I do realize how stupid it was starting this without another tank for medicating/quarantining). I was told the CP would kill the majority of bacteria and algae, besides killing the inverts. Just to make it clear, I have the CP on hand and have NOT dosed it yet. Thank you for contributing to btw.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Frost_Hydra

Sorry to interrupt your guy's heated debate, but to answer your questions, the tank is infected with Uronema. I have not treated the tank. I have ordered a 30g tank and it is coming in a week, I currently don't have any other tanks (yes I do realize how stupid it was starting this without another tank for medicating/quarantining). I was told the CP would kill the majority of bacteria and algae, besides killing the inverts. Just to make it clear, I have the CP on hand and have NOT dosed it yet. Thank you for contributing to btw.

Glad you have not treted tank. Also, tell us more about tank. I will look to see if you have a build thread.

It has not got hot to me. Being a Cajun, I like hot and spicy.

[Frost_Hydra]

Sure! Idk where I would post that thread, but I can tell you the basics of the tank. I think it has been about 10 months now since I set it up. it's a 55g long and I'm planning on making it a reef tank. It's actually the first fish tank I've ever had (not counting a 2g goldfish bowl). So far besides the whole parasite thing, everything has been going insanely well, considering the fact that the only thing I can check is the water salinity (difficult to get all those testing things on a highschoolers budget). Anyways, not counting the two fish that perished recently. theirs a young male Carpenter Flasher Wrasse, a female Teardrop Occelaris who is hosting with the 2-inch BTA, a newly added male Darwin Clownfish, A Diamond Watchman Goby, and a small 1-inch Curious Wormfish. To be honest, I don't even know if the wormfish is alive, I haven't seen it in 4 weeks, but I've heard of fish hiding for months, so I got hope. There's a Candy Mushroom coral who just had a head split, so ima assume things are going well for it. Invert wise, besides the BTA, there's a Skunk Cleaner Shrimp, and a small Peppermint Shrimp (to deal with the Aiptasia (which is all gone now)), and there was a 1/4 inch Peterson Cleanser Shrimp, but I think the Goby has eaten him, as I haven't seen him in 2 months. The tank also has a really large amount of Tibse and is covered in Grape Malco algae. I don't have a sump, protein skimmer, reactor, nor refugium. I have a mechanical filter and a powerhead, a very fine grain 2-inch sandbed, and about 50 pounds of rock. The lights are on for about 10 hours a day and I feed everything flakes, freeze-dried Mysis shrimp (with Selcon), and some pellets. Besides the automatic top off system, which is super important as the tank has no lid so the water evaporates extremely fast, I don't add water or do any water changes.

Sorry, that was kinda a load of probably mostly useless information, but I hope it helped you in some way!

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Frost_Hydra

Sure! Idk where I would post that thread, but I can tell you the basics of the tank. I think it has been about 10 months now since I set it up. it's a 55g long and I'm planning on making it a reef tank. It's actually the first fish tank I've ever had (not counting a 2g goldfish bowl). So far besides the whole parasite thing, everything has been going insanely well, considering the fact that the only thing I can check is the water salinity (difficult to get all those testing things on a highschoolers budget). Anyways, not counting the two fish that perished recently. theirs a young male Carpenter Flasher Wrasse, a female Teardrop Occelaris who is hosting with the 2-inch BTA, a newly added male Darwin Clownfish, A Diamond Watchman Goby, and a small 1-inch Curious Wormfish. To be honest, I don't even know if the wormfish is alive, I haven't seen it in 4 weeks, but I've heard of fish hiding for months, so I got hope. There's a Candy Mushroom coral who just had a head split, so ima assume things are going well for it. Invert wise, besides the BTA, there's a Skunk Cleaner Shrimp, and a small Peppermint Shrimp (to deal with the Aiptasia (which is all gone now)), and there was a 1/4 inch Peterson Cleanser Shrimp, but I think the Goby has eaten him, as I haven't seen him in 2 months. The tank also has a really large amount of Tibse and is covered in Grape Malco algae. I don't have a sump, protein skimmer, reactor, nor refugium. I have a mechanical filter and a powerhead, a very fine grain 2-inch sandbed, and about 50 pounds of rock. The lights are on for about 10 hours a day and I feed everything flakes, freeze-dried Mysis shrimp (with Selcon), and some pellets. Besides the automatic top off system, which is super important as the tank has no lid so the water evaporates extremely fast, I don't add water or do any water changes.

Sorry, that was kinda a load of probably mostly useless information, but I hope it helped you in some way!

There is nothing useless about information. First, it told me your relative age and budget. Second, it told me you have been doing your research and most importantly, I now know you are 100% natural filtration. What does that actually mean to you? You have accomplished something that I have never done, propagating Anemone. For me, it means stable and long lived. My 75G Jaubert Plenum has been set up for 25 years. I recently made adjustments to favor sponges and filter feeders.

Can you post pictures?

With respect to Grape Caulerpa, it is editable. I eat it straight out of the tank as a bio indicator. Actually, I use it in my vegetarian ceviche recipe. But the best is with a sauce of sesame seed oil, sweet rice wine, soy sauce and lime juice. I recommend floating in fresh ice water to wash off excess salt and enhance macro crisp texture when eaten. However, macro should be eaten within 20 minutes after immersion in fresh water because it will lose crisp texture very quickly.

[Subsea]

"Besides the automatic top off system, which is super important as the tank has no lid so the water evaporates extremely fast, I don't add water or do any water changes."

If the tank evaporates, you must add makeup water or the level will drop. In either case, the salinity will begin to climb. Because evaporation is distilled water and if makeup is tap water, you will be adding salt to tank. The process will eventually require you to do a partial water change. Considering that you have no test equipment beside salinity swing arm indicator, you should incorporate the use of replacement salt with partial water changes into your budget before you buy more fish.

[Frost_Hydra]

I use RODI water sold by my grocery store for 1.28$ for 3 gallons (Which seems insanely cheap, especially considering the fact that California is still in a drought). And I do have salt on hand, so if I ever had to add some more, or remove some, via water change, I should be able to.

Also doesn't "Laissez les bons temps rouler" at the bottom of your posts, mean "Let the good times roll" :P